There is belief in cleansing after death. Mark of Ephesus:But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or greater ones for which even though they have repented over them they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place.Since Orthodox do not believe in a Purgatory or any state of cleansing before heaven, why do Orthodox Christians pray for the dead? Wouldn’t it be futile to pray for those who have departed if they a) can no longer repent b) only waiting for the impending Last Judgment ?
We do not know exactly what happens in the afterlife. There is no Scriptural text or Patristic teaching that says there is conclusively a Purgatory. But we do have evidence from Tradition that we pray for the dead and that we can help the state of those who have fallen asleep that in the last judgement God may pardon their sins. However this is accomplished, we do not know. In fact, it wouldn’t change our faith had we known. So we pray and leave it all up to God.Since Orthodox do not believe in a Purgatory or any state of cleansing before heaven, why do Orthodox Christians pray for the dead? Wouldn’t it be futile to pray for those who have departed if they a) can no longer repent b) only waiting for the impending Last Judgment ?
Which is exactly what the dogma of purgatory is.We do not know exactly what happens in the afterlife. There is no Scriptural text or Patristic teaching that says there is conclusively a Purgatory. But we do have evidence from Tradition that we pray for the dead and that we can help the state of those who have fallen asleep that in the last judgement God may pardon their sins. However this is accomplished, we do not know. In fact, it wouldn’t change our faith had we known. So we pray and leave it all up to God.
Decree 18
We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has done; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation.
And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not.
We don’t presuppose fire or torment.Which is exactly what the dogma of purgatory is.
DEATH AND RESURRECTION
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What happens to souls after death? According to the traditional teaching of the Orthodox Church, souls do not leave the earth immediately after their departure from the body. For three days they remain close to the earth and visit the places with which they were associated. Meanwhile, the living show particular consideration to the souls of the deceased by offering memorial prayers and funeral services. During these three days, the personal task of the living is to be reconciled with the departed, to forgive them and to ask their forgiveness.
With the passing of three days the souls of the departed ascend to the Judge in order to undergo their personal trial. Righteous souls are then taken by the angels and brought to the threshold of Paradise, which is called ‘Abraham’s bosom’: there they remain waiting for the Last Judgment. Sinners, on the other hand, find themselves ‘in Hell’, ‘in torments’ (cf. Luke 16:22-23). But the final division into the saved and the condemned will actually take place at the universal Last Judgment, when ‘many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt’ (Dan.12:2). Before the Last Judgment, the righteous souls anticipate the joy of Paradise, while the souls of sinners anticipate the torments of Gehenna.
… Immediately after the common resurrection, will be the Last Judgment at which the final decision is taken as to who is worthy of the Kingdom of heaven and who should be sentenced to the torments of Hell. Before this event, however, there exists the possibility for the person in Hell to gain release; after the Last Judgment this possibility no longer remains.
THE LAST JUDGMENT
At the moment of death, the soul leaves the body and enters its new mode of existence. It does not lose its memory or its ability to think or to feel, but departs to the other world loaded with the burden of its life, with memories of its past and an accountability for its sins.
Christian teaching on the Last Judgment is based on the understanding that all sinful and evil deeds committed by the person leave certain traces on his soul, and that the person is to give an account for everything before that Absolute Good, with Which no evil or sin can coexist. The Kingdom of God is incompatible with sin: ‘…Nothing unclean will enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life’ (Rev.21:27). Every evil for which repentance was not shown at the sacrament of confession, every sin which was concealed, every defilement of the soul which was not purified …
Torment is clearly “presupposed” - even by St Mark of Ephesus. The very word is also used in the passages that I quoted above.We don’t presuppose fire or torment.
This idea is not aligned with actual Orthodox teaching in the passages that I quoted above…Since Orthodox do not believe in a Purgatory or any state of cleansing before heaven…
As an aside, I wanted to comment on your reference to Mark of Ephesus as a Saint.Torment is clearly “presupposed” - even by St Mark of Ephesus. The very word is also used in the passages that I quoted above.
Physical fire as the mode of torment is not. But that was never Catholic dogma.
Here’s the thing, the East has never dogmatized anything. St. Mark’s theological opinion is just that, a theological opinion. People are free to believe it or not. People are free to believe in Aerial Tollhouses if they want, despite growing opposition to it. The fact is Aerial Tolllhouses are not condemned at this point so people can accept it if they want but it is not official Church teaching.Torment is clearly “presupposed” - even by St Mark of Ephesus. The very word is also used in the passages that I quoted above.
Physical fire as the mode of torment is not. But that was never Catholic dogma.
Not of consequence though I’m not convinced of the point he makes, as the issue revolves around Christ/Mary at the Incarnation. I’ve read the exegesis of this sin, you find this to be a convincing point? Why not lay it out and lets look at it.St. John Chrysostom himself taught that Mary sinned
If the doctrine of Purgatory is simply that the final judgement - the final decision on whether a soul goes to heaven, or hell, does not happen immediately after death, then we agree. But then I have to ask what is the point of making this into a dogma? It is so open ended, even the Protestants, who don’t believe in prayers for the dead, would have to agree with it.Which is exactly what the dogma of purgatory is.
At face value this is simply not true, so I suspect that you mean something else.Here’s the thing, the East has never dogmatized anything.
And similarly, the idea of purgatory as a place with physical, refiner’s fire that purifies - while a scriptural image - has never been domatized in the CC. And I don’t know if any of the medieval imagery would rise to the level fo “theological opinion”.St. Mark’s theological opinion is just that, a theological opinion. People are free to believe it or not. People are free to believe in Aerial Tollhouses if they want, despite growing opposition to it. The fact is Aerial Tolllhouses are not condemned at this point so people can accept it if they want but it is not official Church teaching.
Can you document a moment in the history of Orthodoxy that this blunder of St. John Chrysostom had some traction in the EOC? I am sure that it is more widely talked about in the internet era than ever before. Yet the mind of the EOC is absolutely unequivocal on the sinlessness of Mary. Anyone who feels “free to believe it or not” is flouting the clear tradition of the church.This is in line with the Orthodox stand on Mary’s sinlessness. St. John Chrysostom himself taught that Mary sinned. Today it is more common for the Orthodox to believe that Mary never sinned. But that is not dogma in the East.
The key point that you leave out, on which I think most Protestants would disagree, is that the is a possibility that the during the time between the particular and final judgement, the anticipated fate of souls judged for hell can be changed, and that works of the people are efficacious is effecting that change. Catholics and Orthodox would also agree on the awareness of souls of their situation, the need for purification, and the capacity of souls to be participants in that purification.If the doctrine of Purgatory is simply that the final judgement - the final decision on whether a soul goes to heaven, or hell, does not happen immediately after death, then we agree. But then I have to ask what is the point of making this into a dogma? It is so open ended, even the Protestants, who don’t believe in prayers for the dead, would have to agree with it.
However we do not teach any mechanics of the afterlife between death and the final judgement. The instant you start claiming certain mechanics of this state, then you can no longer claim we are in a state of doctrinal agreement.
Purgatory is not contrary to Orthodox thought, it just isn’t what we teach.
Nor does the actual dogmatic description. And many orthodox writers DO presuppose fire, as the dead undergoing posthumous theosis are in the outskirts of hell.We don’t presuppose fire or torment.
Benedictus Deus (1336 A.D.) dogmatically defines immediate damnation for the unjust, which addresses the possibility.CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven – through a purification 594 or immediately, 595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation. 596The key point that you leave out, on which I think most Protestants would disagree, is that the is a possibility that the during the time between the particular and final judgement, the anticipated fate of souls judged for hell can be changed, and that works of the people are efficacious is effecting that change. Catholics and Orthodox would also agree on the awareness of souls of their situation, the need for purification, and the capacity of souls to be participants in that purification.
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love. 597Off topic for this thread. My point is that in Orthodoxy there is allowance for divergence in belief on non-dogmatic things. The state of those who passed away is one of them. Whether you believe in purgatory, soul sleep, aerial toll houses, that is all acceptable to one degree or another. Theologians may say that one of them isn’t acceptable, but that is just an opinion. The only thing the Orthodox cannot reject is that prayers for the dead is efficacious.Not of consequence though I’m not convinced of the point he makes, as the issue revolves around Christ/Mary at the Incarnation. I’ve read the exegesis of this sin, you find this to be a convincing point? Why not lay it out and lets look at it.
But again that is not dogmatic in the Orthodox Church. It is as valid an opinion as aerial toll houses. The difference here is that you and other Catholic mistake a teaching of a popular Orthodox saint or father as dogmatic. It is not like that. Unlike in Catholicism where the Pope says something and all Roman Catholics must accept it.Nor does the actual dogmatic description. And many orthodox writers DO presuppose fire, as the dead undergoing posthumous theosis are in the outskirts of hell.