Prayer for the dead, an Orthodox understanding?

[Nine_Two]

If we truly believe the same thing, Catholics shouldn’t feel the need to make an issue of it. Since there is nothing contrary to Orthodox thought in the traditional imagery Catholics use, or in the idea of an intermediate state, this should be a non-issue.

To address the OP directly: We don’t know what happens after death, We have theories, but we don’t know. But we do believe that our prayers can help those who have passed away.

 

[mardukm]

Off topic for this thread. My point is that in Orthodoxy there is allowance for divergence in belief on non-dogmatic things. The state of those who passed away is one of them. Whether you believe in purgatory, soul sleep, aerial toll houses, that is all acceptable to one degree or another. Theologians may say that one of them isn’t acceptable, but that is just an opinion. The only thing the Orthodox cannot reject is that prayers for the dead is efficacious.

Can you cite a single authoritative EO source that claims that soul sleep is a legitimate belief among the EO?

Also, purgatory (as dogmatically taught by the Catholic Church) and aerial toll houses are not two different things.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

But again that is not dogmatic in the Orthodox Church. It is as valid an opinion as aerial toll houses. The difference here is that you and other Catholic mistake a teaching of a popular Orthodox saint or father as dogmatic. It is not like that. Unlike in Catholicism where the Pope says something and all Roman Catholics must accept it.

Brother Aramis did not say anything about the belief being dogmatic. He was responding to your own dogma that the notion of fire is totally absent from the Eastern Tradition.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[GaryTaylor]

If we truly believe the same thing, Catholics shouldn’t feel the need to make an issue of it. Since there is nothing contrary to Orthodox thought in the traditional imagery Catholics use, or in the idea of an intermediate state, this should be a non-issue.

To address the OP directly: We don’t know what happens after death, We have theories, but we don’t know. But we do believe that our prayers can help those who have passed away.

And one other slight point, we need to be in Communion with Christ. From there the speculation extends.

 

[Nine_Two]

And one other slight point, we need to be in Communion with Christ. From there the speculation extends.

I’m not sure how that relates.

We must hold the same faith, but as far as we Orthodox are concerned, Catholics can believe in purgatory and share our faith. As long as they don’t try to impose the imagery and formulation on us.

 

[chimo]

Since Orthodox do not believe in a Purgatory or any state of cleansing before heaven, why do Orthodox Christians pray for the dead? Wouldn’t it be futile to pray for those who have departed if they a) can no longer repent b) only waiting for the impending Last Judgment ?

You must understand that the Orthodox Church has no set doctrine about Purgatory but that does not mean there is no improvement of the soul after death when an Orthodox christian person dies. I sense the Orthodox Church tends to leave those matters to God so that a soul would still benefit from the Orthodox prayers even though the Church does not admit teaching as similar as Rome’s. Teachings will not improve the souls after death only love and prayers. The Orthodox do pray for the souls after they have died with much love and affection and I am sure God accepts them and applies to the souls the necessary graces for their own betterment.

I am an Orthodox christian who believes in Purgatory and while I accept it I have made some changes in its teachings while I teach it at my Orthodox Church. I tend to believe words and terminology were not that accurate centuries ago and today we have grown to better understandings and can teach Purgatory with this additional understandings and not have munderstandings and misconceptions about it. Purgatory is a transitory state and therefore it is only a temporary state that always leads you to Heaven. With this understanding we can conclude that Purgatory does not begin in the afterlife but in the life you are living in now. You are already in Purgatory that is your state of being now is in the state of Purgatory and hopefully you are growing to the heavenly state. If you have not reached the heavenly state in this life then God continues your state of Purgatory into the next life. God only continues what is already there at the moment of death.

Purgatory continues so that you will need all the necessary Graces for you to reach the state we call Heaven. Once that is acheived then the beautific vision is given to you. I sense after death Purgatory is more of a “fill up” station so that God may give to you the rest of His Holy Sprit to that fullness which you need to fully Glorify God. The prayers of the Church and of the faithful still on earth can help God to dispense these Graces to all the departed souls who are still in a Purgatory state.

The greatest sources of information on this can be found in the Diary written by St. Maria Faustina who had many visions of our Lord Jesus and recorded His messages of Divine Mercy for our world. Many times in the book the Lord revealed Purgatory to her. Purgatory in the teachings which Jesus explained to her are those found in the first two paragraphs which I have written. Our Lord emphasizes that we need to pray now for the Holy Souls in Purgatory in this life and not wait to pray for them after they have died. When He mentioned this He means the people who are living in the world now are in a state we call Purgatory. It seems the majority are in this state and He desires us to pray for them now before they die. You can improve their condition before they die! Interesting yet so profound.

Since the OC prays for departed these prayers done at the Divine Liturgy or privately has the same power and might as what the Catholic Church offers. Both Churches do a great service for praying for the departed.

 

[GaryTaylor]

impose the imagery and formulation on us.

I see your continuing to proceed with your usual Christian Charity in what you think you know, yet you seem to have become more imaginative than them.

Are you serious, why it makes a difference? It is THE POINT in the entire doctrine apparently you missed looking for imaginary reading. If you are not in communion with Christ “Biblically” and by the Doctrine: You are going to hell and purification is moot!

So all that Good=Good speculation about what will happen won’t buy another moment. That’s why its related and “the” most important point.

 

[Jacob50]

You must understand that the Orthodox Church has no set doctrine about Purgatory but that does not mean there is no improvement of the soul after death when an Orthodox christian person dies. I sense the Orthodox Church tends to leave those matters to God so that a soul would still benefit from the Orthodox prayers even though the Church does not admit teaching as similar as Rome’s. Teachings will not improve the souls after death only love and prayers. The Orthodox do pray for the souls after they have died with much love and affection and I am sure God accepts them and applies to the souls the necessary graces for their own betterment.

I am an Orthodox christian who believes in Purgatory and while I accept it I have made some changes in its teachings while I teach it at my Orthodox Church. I tend to believe words and terminology were not that accurate centuries ago and today we have grown to better understandings and can teach Purgatory with this additional understandings and not have munderstandings and misconceptions about it. Purgatory is a transitory state and therefore it is only a temporary state that always leads you to Heaven. With this understanding we can conclude that Purgatory does not begin in the afterlife but in the life you are living in now. You are already in Purgatory that is your state of being now is in the state of Purgatory and hopefully you are growing to the heavenly state. If you have not reached the heavenly state in this life then God continues your state of Purgatory into the next life. God only continues what is already there at the moment of death.

Purgatory continues so that you will need all the necessary Graces for you to reach the state we call Heaven. Once that is acheived then the beautific vision is given to you. I sense after death Purgatory is more of a “fill up” station so that God may give to you the rest of His Holy Sprit to that fullness which you need to fully Glorify God. The prayers of the Church and of the faithful still on earth can help God to dispense these Graces to all the departed souls who are still in a Purgatory state.

The greatest sources of information on this can be found in the Diary written by St. Maria Faustina who had many visions of our Lord Jesus and recorded His messages of Divine Mercy for our world. Many times in the book the Lord revealed Purgatory to her. Purgatory in the teachings which Jesus explained to her are those found in the first two paragraphs which I have written. Our Lord emphasizes that we need to pray now for the Holy Souls in Purgatory in this life and not wait to pray for them after they have died. When He mentioned this He means the people who are living in the world now are in a state we call Purgatory. It seems the majority are in this state and He desires us to pray for them now before they die. You can improve their condition before they die! Interesting yet so profound.

Since the OC prays for departed these prayers done at the Divine Liturgy or privately has the same power and might as what the Catholic Church offers. Both Churches do a great service for praying for the departed.

I agree

 

[GaryTaylor]

You must understand that the Orthodox Church has no set doctrine about Purgatory but that does not mean there is no improvement of the soul after death when an Orthodox christian person dies. I sense the Orthodox Church tends to leave those matters to God so that a soul would still benefit from the Orthodox prayers even though the Church does not admit teaching as similar as Rome’s. Teachings will not improve the souls after death only love and prayers. The Orthodox do pray for the souls after they have died with much love and affection and I am sure God accepts them and applies to the souls the necessary graces for their own betterment.

I am an Orthodox christian who believes in Purgatory and while I accept it I have made some changes in its teachings while I teach it at my Orthodox Church. I tend to believe words and terminology were not that accurate centuries ago and today we have grown to better understandings and can teach Purgatory with this additional understandings and not have munderstandings and misconceptions about it. Purgatory is a transitory state and therefore it is only a temporary state that always leads you to Heaven. With this understanding we can conclude that Purgatory does not begin in the afterlife but in the life you are living in now. You are already in Purgatory that is your state of being now is in the state of Purgatory and hopefully you are growing to the heavenly state. If you have not reached the heavenly state in this life then God continues your state of Purgatory into the next life. God only continues what is already there at the moment of death.

Purgatory continues so that you will need all the necessary Graces for you to reach the state we call Heaven. Once that is acheived then the beautific vision is given to you. I sense after death Purgatory is more of a “fill up” station so that God may give to you the rest of His Holy Sprit to that fullness which you need to fully Glorify God. The prayers of the Church and of the faithful still on earth can help God to dispense these Graces to all the departed souls who are still in a Purgatory state.

The greatest sources of information on this can be found in the Diary written by St. Maria Faustina who had many visions of our Lord Jesus and recorded His messages of Divine Mercy for our world. Many times in the book the Lord revealed Purgatory to her. Purgatory in the teachings which Jesus explained to her are those found in the first two paragraphs which I have written. Our Lord emphasizes that we need to pray now for the Holy Souls in Purgatory in this life and not wait to pray for them after they have died. When He mentioned this He means the people who are living in the world now are in a state we call Purgatory. It seems the majority are in this state and He desires us to pray for them now before they die. You can improve their condition before they die! Interesting yet so profound.

Since the OC prays for departed these prayers done at the Divine Liturgy or privately has the same power and might as what the Catholic Church offers. Both Churches do a great service for praying for the departed.

Amen,

Which is why its stated Blessed are those who take their purgatory on earth. And right the prayers which are also most critical are for the conversion of sinners. They perish partly because there is no-one to pray for them.

Communion with Christ occurs through intercessory prayer. As it did with Mary being the example prior to the incarnation.

We all pray for our family. friends and loved ones now and at death. This is why it is so imperative to remain in Communion with Christ. These prayers in good faith should also extend to those who went astray and have no-one.

I don’t imagine we all do much different in this regard.

 

[dvdjs]

If we truly believe the same thing, Catholics shouldn’t feel the need to make an issue of it. Since there is nothing contrary to Orthodox thought in the traditional imagery Catholics use, or in the idea of an intermediate state, this should be a non-issue.

I agree this should be a non-issue. And should have been for centuries. Not sure why you think Catholics are the ones who have been making an issue of it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Can you cite a single authoritative EO source that claims that soul sleep is a legitimate belief among the EO?

Also, purgatory (as dogmatically taught by the Catholic Church) and aerial toll houses are not two different things.

Blessings,
Marduk

Authoritative? Did you not read what I just said? I just said that any authoritative teaching on any intermediate state DOES NOT EXIST and there is freedom to believe a number of teachings put forward by various teachers and theologians over the centuries. None of them are authoritative, that was my entire point. Quoting St. Mark of Ephesus isn’t any proof of any authoritative teaching. The only authoritative text in Orthodoxy is the Liturgy. If we pray it in the Liturgy then it is doctrine and dogma that everyone must believe and profess uniformly. Outside of that, there is flexibility. Until of course a council a particular belief is declared heretic.

Brother Aramis did not say anything about the belief being dogmatic. He was responding to your own dogma that the notion of fire is totally absent from the Eastern Tradition.

I never said fire is totally absent. I just said we don’t presuppose fire. It means it is open to believe there is fire or not. And even St. Mark of Ephesus never said that the fire is a physical fire, but rather it was an allegorical fire. It is symbolic. Because we are talking about the spiritual realm here, we cannot said with certainty that the elements in that realm is the same as our realm.

 

[dvdjs]

Hasn’t the notion of soul-sleep been declared heresy in the EOC?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hasn’t the notion of soul-sleep been declared heresy in the EOC?

Has it? Which council?

 

[mardukm]

Authoritative? Did you not read what I just said? I just said that any authoritative teaching on any intermediate state DOES NOT EXIST and there is freedom to believe a number of teachings put forward by various teachers and theologians over the centuries. None of them are authoritative, that was my entire point. Quoting St. Mark of Ephesus isn’t any proof of any authoritative teaching. The only authoritative text in Orthodoxy is the Liturgy. If we pray it in the Liturgy then it is doctrine and dogma that everyone must believe and profess uniformly. Outside of that, there is flexibility. Until of course a council a particular belief is declared heretic.

You are inadmissably restricting the Faith of the Church to just the Liturgy. Our Faith is contained in the ENTIRE Sacred Tradition of the Church. For example, the doctrine on the united wills of Christ is not contained in the Liturgy. Surely you are not claiming that anyone is free to believe on that matter as they choose simply because it is not contained in the Liturgy. The fact is, there are certain Fathers of the EOC who are authoritative on matters of Faith and are standards of orthodoxy. There has to be an authoritative source for your statement that “soul sleep” is a legitimate belief within EO’xy. Claiming that it is not contained in the LIturgy doesn’t cut it. For example, the doctrine of Essence and Energy is not contained in the LIturgy. The authoritative sources for this teaching is obvious in EO’xy. All I’m asking for is an authoritative source in EO’xy for your claim that “soul sleep” is a legitimate belief for an EO.

I never said fire is totally absent. I just said we don’t presuppose fire. It means it is open to believe there is fire or not. And even St. Mark of Ephesus never said that the fire is a physical fire, but rather it was an allegorical fire. It is symbolic. Because we are talking about the spiritual realm here, we cannot said with certainty that the elements in that realm is the same as our realm.

But fire does not have to be allegorical or physical, but can be spiritual. Your statement “we don’t presuppose fire” certainly has a very general sense that makes it seem like it is impossible for an Eastern to even conceive of fire in whatever sense. I’d like to ask that you think about what you write before you write it. You often claim you are misunderstood, but the fact that many here react that way to your statements should give you an indication that maybe it is your own language that is the cause of the misunderstanding in the first place. Just be more concise and thoughtful with your language.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Nine_Two]

I see your continuing to proceed with your usual Christian Charity in what you think you know, yet you seem to have become more imaginative than them.

Are you serious, why it makes a difference? It is THE POINT in the entire doctrine apparently you missed looking for imaginary reading. If you are not in communion with Christ “Biblically” and by the Doctrine: You are going to hell and purification is moot!

So all that Good=Good speculation about what will happen won’t buy another moment. That’s why its related and “the” most important point.

And that right there is the issue. Clearly you don’t think we are in agreement on it.

I have said nothing uncharitable, although I do find it quite uncharitable to be told I’m going to hell for disagreeing. I already have too many people in this thread on my ignore list, I’d rather not add you.

 

[mardukm]

Hasn’t the notion of soul-sleep been declared heresy in the EOC?

This issue seems to be a clear example of development of doctrine within the Church. The later medieval Eastern and Western authorities seem to unanimously reject the notion of soul sleep as it evidently opposes the doctrine of the intercession of the Saints.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[GaryTaylor]

And that right there is the issue. Clearly you don’t think we are in agreement on it.

Nine that is the point I’m pretty sure most of us here are in agreement on be it East or West. Granted there may be some misguided souls who somehow conclude Communion with Christ isn’t an absolute, that isn’t what I see or hear here. From this point is Salvation. What will be in our continued progress with the Lord will be. I say, may He be forever Blessed.

 

[Cavaradossi]

This issue seems to be a clear example of development of doctrine within the Church. The later medieval Eastern and Western authorities seem to unanimously reject the notion of soul sleep as it evidently opposes the doctrine of the intercession of the Saints.

Soul sleep was only a popular belief amongst Syriac Christians, if I recall. I don’t know if the belief was ever formally condemned, but it basically died out by the turn of the century.

 

[Cavaradossi]

This issue seems to be a clear example of development of doctrine within the Church. The later medieval Eastern and Western authorities seem to unanimously reject the notion of soul sleep as it evidently opposes the doctrine of the intercession of the Saints.

Soul sleep was only a popular belief amongst Syriac Christians, if I recall. I don’t know if the belief was ever formally condemned, but it basically died out by the end of the first millennium.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You are inadmissably restricting the Faith of the Church to just the Liturgy. Our Faith is contained in the ENTIRE Sacred Tradition of the Church. For example, the doctrine on the united wills of Christ is not contained in the Liturgy. Surely you are not claiming that anyone is free to believe on that matter as they choose simply because it is not contained in the Liturgy. The fact is, there are certain Fathers of the EOC who are authoritative on matters of Faith and are standards of orthodoxy. There has to be an authoritative source for your statement that “soul sleep” is a legitimate belief within EO’xy. Claiming that it is not contained in the LIturgy doesn’t cut it. For example, the doctrine of Essence and Energy is not contained in the LIturgy. The authoritative sources for this teaching is obvious in EO’xy. All I’m asking for is an authoritative source in EO’xy for your claim that “soul sleep” is a legitimate belief for an EO.

And the Liturgy is part of Sacred Tradition. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Byzantine Christians exemplify that better than the Latins. It is not a limitation of our faith. What is in the Liturgy is what is held as common belief. But there certainly there is more to what is said in Liturgy, but it just isn’t dogmatic. This is why you don’t see Orthodox Christians and truly eastern ECs go on message boards and ask one another, “can you provide a papal/authoritative document?” That is not how our faith is defined.

Also not by “Liturgy” I mean all public payer services, which includes Matins, Vespers, etc., including the Tropars and Kondaks. Not just Divine Liturgy.

Also, I didn’t mention soul sleep to say that it is something authoritative or anything. It is one of the ideas out there and while it has whittled down in popularity (I don’t quite agree that it has completely died down), it is something that one could believe in but it is not something that is dogmatic. So I don’t know what “authoritative” statement you are looking for, again, there is no dogma here. And the Eastern Churches is not the Roman Church, we don’t put everything into an encyclical or papal bull or the like.

But fire does not have to be allegorical or physical, but can be spiritual. Your statement “we don’t presuppose fire” certainly has a very general sense that makes it seem like it is impossible for an Eastern to even conceive of fire in whatever sense. I’d like to ask that you think about what you write before you write it. You often claim you are misunderstood, but the fact that many here react that way to your statements should give you an indication that maybe it is your own language that is the cause of the misunderstanding in the first place. Just be more concise and thoughtful with your language.

Presuppose means it is a precondition. Google it if you like. If we presuppose fire, it just means that no matter what our view on the intermediate state is, it must have fire. That is not the Eastern belief. One can follow a belief that has fire, but it is not a presupposition of our faith. Not every idea of the intermediate step involves fire, that is what presuppose means. I don’t know why “presuppose” is such a confusing word for you. There’s google and dictionary.com.