Prayer for the dead, an Orthodox understanding?

[mardukm]

And the Liturgy is part of Sacred Tradition. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Byzantine Christians exemplify that better than the Latins. It is not a limitation of our faith.

Yet in another thread you clearly wrote:
We can have a quote battle here unto the ages of ages, or you can show me where in the Liturgical texts of the Eastern Churches do we teach things like Original Sin, Purgatory, Mary’s Assumption without death, Immaculate Conception, etc. Because it doesn’t matter what individual people say, even if they are bishops, the faith of the Church is expressed in the Liturgy. In the East that is what we believe, par exellance. What bishops say doesn’t drive the beliefe of the entire Church until it is accepted by all and codified in the Liturgical texts.
Thank you for correcting/clarifying your previous claim that the Faith is limited to what is codifed in the Liturgy.

Also, I didn’t mention soul sleep to say that it is something authoritative or anything. It is one of the ideas out there and while it has whittled down in popularity (I don’t quite agree that it has completely died down), it is something that one could believe in but it is not something that is dogmatic. So I don’t know what “authoritative” statement you are looking for, again, there is no dogma here. And the Eastern Churches is not the Roman Church, we don’t put everything into an encyclical or papal bull or the like.

Every belief of an apostolic Christian requires an authoritative source. It doesn’t have to be dogmatic. I am asking for your authoritative source that supports your claim that soul sleep can be a legitimate belief of an EO Christian. You have admitted you have based your claim on no authority. That’s all I wanted to know.

Presuppose means it is a precondition. Google it if you like. If we presuppose fire, it just means that no matter what our view on the intermediate state is, it must have fire. That is not the Eastern belief. One can follow a belief that has fire, but it is not a presupposition of our faith. Not every idea of the intermediate step involves fire, that is what presuppose means. I don’t know why “presuppose” is such a confusing word for you. There’s google and dictionary.com.

But it is legitimate and not condemnable if an individual Christian of the Eastern Tradition does presuppose fire. Correct? So you were INcorrect to make a general claim that “WE don’t presuppose fire.” And that’s what brother Dvdjs was addressing - your own dogmatic claim that your own belief is what the entire Eastern Tradition believes.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thank you for correcting/clarifying your previous claim that the Faith is limited to what is codifed in the Liturgy.

Another masterful insertion of words into another’s mouths.

mardukm, you’re the type who is not interested in truth but only with other people accepting what you personally believe. I will never accept your erroneous beliefs. But congratulations, by default because I am bowing out you WIN this debate. Go celebrate. Merry Christmas.

 

[Aramis]

You are inadmissably restricting the Faith of the Church to just the Liturgy.

It is often said (by both Orthodox theologians and Byzantine Rite Catholic theologians) that the primary source of theological text in the Byzantine Rite is the liturgy.

It’s our primary text besides the Bible, and encapsulates Tradition and tradition, as well.

Far more even than the Romans, the Byzantine Rite is a Rite focused on Liturgical matters. The whole of the faith is encompassed by the combination of Scripture and Liturgy according to several (Byzantine) Orthodox writers.

 

[Cavaradossi]

It is often said (by both Orthodox theologians and Byzantine Rite Catholic theologians) that the primary source of theological text in the Byzantine Rite is the liturgy.

It’s our primary text besides the Bible, and encapsulates Tradition and tradition, as well.

Far more even than the Romans, the Byzantine Rite is a Rite focused on Liturgical matters. The whole of the faith is encompassed by the combination of Scripture and Liturgy according to several (Byzantine) Orthodox writers.

Indeed, this seems to be how St. Basil (and the Cappadocians) understood “Tradition.” The liturgical tradition contains the fulness of the faith therein.

 

[GaryTaylor]

And the Liturgy is part of Sacred Tradition. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi,

Amen… “Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi”. You do realize this is Latin which you claim to express better than the Latins? .

 

[GaryTaylor]

You are inadmissably restricting the Faith of the Church to just the Liturgy. Our Faith is contained in the ENTIRE Sacred Tradition of the Church. For example, the doctrine on the united wills of Christ is not contained in the Liturgy. Surely you are not claiming that anyone is free to believe on that matter as they choose simply because it is not contained in the Liturgy. The fact is, there are certain Fathers of the EOC who are authoritative on matters of Faith and are standards of orthodoxy. There has to be an authoritative source for your statement that “soul sleep” is a legitimate belief within EO’xy. Claiming that it is not contained in the LIturgy doesn’t cut it. For example, the doctrine of Essence and Energy is not contained in the LIturgy.

More important than this is the fact that CTG states “God is Grace” and while I go along with this it does raise an issue. By the above paradigm what does this say about “Gods Grace” and about all those Christians who do not follow the Eastern Church? Who do not know the liturgy, is the ecumenical aspect included in the liturgy? How about Gods Grace, is it limited to the liturgy?

The Ecumenical aspect is an issue by this thinking.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Aramis,

I fully agree. The same goes with the Oriental Tradition. We are truly nourished by the Liturgy in both Word and Sacrament in our daily lives. The Liturgy is our immediate contact with the Faith of our ancestors and the Church, even as we are given life by the Eucharist.

Nevertheless, the Liturgy is not a precise theological thesis. If there is a theological crisis or debate, we cannot restrict ourselves to just the Liturgy as our source, but must recognize the inestimable value of our entire Tradition. This was driven home by Pope St. Cyril of Alexandria at the Council of Ephesus. There were Fathers who chided him that he was going beyond the language of the Creeds in his defense of the Faith. But he rightly defended himself by affirming that our Faith is not restricted to the Creeds but rather is contained in the entire witness of the Fathers and Tradition.

Blessings,
Marduk

It is often said (by both Orthodox theologians and Byzantine Rite Catholic theologians) that the primary source of theological text in the Byzantine Rite is the liturgy.

It’s our primary text besides the Bible, and encapsulates Tradition and tradition, as well.

Far more even than the Romans, the Byzantine Rite is a Rite focused on Liturgical matters. The whole of the faith is encompassed by the combination of Scripture and Liturgy according to several (Byzantine) Orthodox writers.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Gary,

Amen… “Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi”. You do realize this is Latin which you claim to express better than the Latins? .

Since we are to live our lives in constant prayer (i.e., conversation and communication with God), I suspect that the original meaning of this phrase was that we need to live our Faith in the same way we are to pray - daily and constantly. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe it was ever meant to mean that our Faith is boxed up in the Liturgy.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Another masterful insertion of words into another’s mouths.

As I stated in another post, it might only be your choice of words that causes people to misunderstand you. I thanked you for correcting.clarifyiing yourself, but I see you have the kind of personality that will take anything as an insult. That’s ok.

mardukm, you’re the type who is not interested in truth but only with other people accepting what you personally believe.

Rather, I’m the type of person who will press a person to back up his claims, which you often do not. Others here have no problem defending their claims, if they are truly defensible.

I will never accept your erroneous beliefs.

And I won’t accept your false caricatures of the Catholic Faith, or the Latin Catholic Tradition.

But congratulations, by default because I am bowing out you WIN this debate. Go celebrate.

Does this mean that you will simply repeat your false caricatures elsewhere?

Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas to you, as well.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[GaryTaylor]

Merry Christmas to all my brothers and sisters in Christ. May this year bring us closer.