Prayer for the Dead

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**Praying for the Dead Proved from Scripture **

2 Timothy 1:16-18 (RSV)
May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiph’orus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

2 Timothy 4:19
Greet Prisca and Aq’uila, and the household of Onesiph’orus.

Onesiphorus was dead, and Paul prayed “May the Lord grant him to find mercy on that day.”

If Paul can pray for the dead, so can we.
 
Randy_Carson said:
**Praying for the Dead Proved from Scripture **

2 Timothy 1:16-18 (RSV)
May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiph’orus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

2 Timothy 4:19
Greet Prisca and Aq’uila, and the household of Onesiph’orus.

Onesiphorus was dead, and Paul prayed “May the Lord grant him to find mercy on that day.”

If Paul can pray for the dead, so can we.
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Agreed.
Jon
 
Randy_Carson said:
**Praying for the Dead Proved from Scripture **

2 Timothy 1:16-18 (RSV)
May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiph’orus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

2 Timothy 4:19
Greet Prisca and Aq’uila, and the household of Onesiph’orus.

Onesiphorus was dead, and Paul prayed “May the Lord grant him to find mercy on that day.”

If Paul can pray for the dead, so can we.
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Very good point. Paul is speaking of him in the past tense.
 
Randy gives 2 verses to try and support prayers for the dead against the myriad of scriptures that teaches its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment. The Bible teaches there’s only 2 destinations in the afterlife-heaven and hell. It teaches that we must all give an account before Christ at the Judgment Seat. It teaches that the righteous have their names in the Book of Life. It does not teach that we can pray someone out of hell. Nor does it teach purification (purgatory) after death. Jesus Christ completely purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him (1 John 1:7, 2:2) The Bible nowhere teaches there’s any second chance after we die. Paul said to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord. In other words, the righteous are guaranteed heaven. This is why Joshua said: Choose you this day whom you will serve. (Joshua 24:15). We must make our decision for Christ now while we are alive. If one dies an apostate, an unbeliever, prayer for “mercy” would be worthless because mercy will be bestowed on the basis of one’s personal relationship with the Lord, not on that of another’s actions (Ezekiel 18:20; 2 Cor 5:10)

Where in 2 Timothy does it say Onesiphorus is dead? It doesn’t.To read into the text what isn’t there is a fatal error. Any vague or ambiguous text must be compared to what the scriptures as a whole says about the matter. Onesiphorus is spoken of in the past tense possibly because he was no longer in Rome. The fact that Paul did not mention him in 4:19, in sending greetings to those in Ephesus, can mean he was not in Ephesus but away from home since he had been traveling for some time in search of Paul.

The fact that Paul prayed for this brother in Christ actually strengthens the case that he was not dead, since there is not a shred of evidence in the NT that prayers for the dead are acceptable. If Onesiphorus was dead, why did the apostle offer no word of comfort to the family? 2 Timothy was Paul’s last letter. He knew he would be executed soon. This was a farewell letter. He wishes mercy upon everyone.

In order for prayers for the dead to be a true doctrine, it would have been taught by the apostles from Christ Himself. Where did Jesus ever teach this? If Onesiphorus, as a godly man, was dead, there would be no need to petition God for mercy on his behalf; he would have been a recipient of that mercy already.

The fact is you only have “support” of this false doctrine from an apocryphal book, Maccabees, which the Jews rejected as uninspired and spurious. It was never in the Hebrew canon and the Jews have the Scriptures in its purity. The NT tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God.
 
yankee_drifter said:
Randy gives 2 verses to try and support prayers for the dead against the myriad of scriptures that teaches its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment. The Bible teaches there’s only 2 destinations in the afterlife-heaven and hell. It teaches that we must all give an account before Christ at the Judgment Seat. It teaches that the righteous have their names in the Book of Life. It does not teach that we can pray someone out of hell. Nor does it teach purification (purgatory) after death. Jesus Christ completely purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him (1 John 1:7, 2:2) The Bible nowhere teaches there’s any second chance after we die. Paul said to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord. In other words, the righteous are guaranteed heaven. This is why Joshua said: Choose you this day whom you will serve. (Joshua 24:15). We must make our decision for Christ now while we are alive. If one dies an apostate, an unbeliever, prayer for “mercy” would be worthless because mercy will be bestowed on the basis of one’s personal relationship with the Lord, not on that of another’s actions (Ezekiel 18:20; 2 Cor 5:10)
.
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Just to narrow down the argument, I can assure you that Catholics do not believe we can pray someone out of Hell or we have some sort of second chance after death. Our eternity will be spent in Heaven or Hell and that choice is fixed at the time of our death with no possibility of it changing. No Catholic is free to believe otherwise.
 
yankee_drifter said:
Randy gives 2 verses to try and support prayers for the dead against the myriad of scriptures that teaches its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment.
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You have tied two things together which are related but which must be understood separately.

First, is it acceptable to pray for the dead? Yes or no?

Paul prayed for the dead. This means that the dead CAN be prayed for and by implication that they BENEFIT from these prayers. Since those in heaven don’t need prayer and those in hell CAN’T benefit from intercession, who can possibly gain any assistance from Paul’s prayer?

Second, well, let’s see what you wrote first:
The Bible teaches there’s only 2 destinations in the afterlife-heaven and hell. It teaches that we must all give an account before Christ at the Judgment Seat. It teaches that the righteous have their names in the Book of Life.
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Correct!

Catholics believe there are only two destinations: heaven and hell.
It does not teach that we can pray someone out of hell.
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Correct.

Catholics DO NOT BELIEVE that someone can be “prayed out of hell”. If you think that is what we believe, then you were not taught correctly when you were a Catholic.
Nor does it teach purification (purgatory) after death. Jesus Christ completely purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him (1 John 1:7, 2:2)
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Incorrect.

We can discuss this in more detail if you like.
The Bible nowhere teaches there’s any second chance after we die. Paul said to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord. In other words, the righteous are guaranteed heaven. This is why Joshua said: Choose you this day whom you will serve. (Joshua 24:15). We must make our decision for Christ now while we are alive. If one dies an apostate, an unbeliever, prayer for “mercy” would be worthless because mercy will be bestowed on the basis of one’s personal relationship with the Lord, not on that of another’s actions (Ezekiel 18:20; 2 Cor 5:10)
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Correct.

Since I already showed you that Catholics do not believe that Purgatory is a “second chance”, you can dismiss that straw man argument. You see, Yankee, Catholics do NOT believe all the nonsense that you think we do. Makes you wonder what else we might have right, doesn’t it? Well, it should…
Where in 2 Timothy does it say Onesiphorus is dead? It doesn’t.To read into the text what isn’t there is a fatal error. Any vague or ambiguous text must be compared to what the scriptures as a whole says about the matter. Onesiphorus is spoken of in the past tense possibly because he was no longer in Rome. The fact that Paul did not mention him in 4:19, in sending greetings to those in Ephesus, can mean he was not in Ephesus but away from home since he had been traveling for some time in search of Paul.

The fact that Paul prayed for this brother in Christ actually strengthens the case that he was not dead, since there is not a shred of evidence in the NT that prayers for the dead are acceptable. If Onesiphorus was dead, why did the apostle offer no word of comfort to the family? 2 Timothy was Paul’s last letter. He knew he would be executed soon. This was a farewell letter. He wishes mercy upon everyone.

In order for prayers for the dead to be a true doctrine, it would have been taught by the apostles from Christ Himself. Where did Jesus ever teach this? If Onesiphorus, as a godly man, was dead, there would be no need to petition God for mercy on his behalf; he would have been a recipient of that mercy already.

The fact is you only have “support” of this false doctrine from an apocryphal book, Maccabees, which the Jews rejected as uninspired and spurious. It was never in the Hebrew canon and the Jews have the Scriptures in its purity. The NT tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God.
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Well, let’s see what some non-Catholics wrote about Onesiphorous (I have lots of these quotes if you need them):

(cont.)
 
Alfred Plummer (Anglican)

Certainly the balance of probability is decidedly in favour of the view that Onesiphorus was already dead when St. Paul wrote these words. . . . he here speaks of “the house of Onesiphorus” in connexion with the present, and of Onesiphorus himself only in connexion with the past. . . . it is not easy to explain this reference in two places to the household of Onesiphorus, if he himself was still alive. In all the other cases the individual and not the household is mentioned. . . . There is also the character of the Apostle’s prayer. Why does he confine his desires respecting the requital of Onesiphorus’ kindness to the day of judgment? . . . This again is thoroughly intelligible, if Onesiphorus is already dead.

. . . there seems to be equal absence of serious reason for doubting that the words in question constitute a prayer. . . .

Having thus concluded that, according to the more probable and reasonable view, the passage before us contains a prayer offered up by the Apostle on behalf of one who is dead, we seem to have obtained his sanction, and therefore the sanction of Scripture, for using similar prayers ourselves. . . .

This passage may be quoted as reasonable evidence that the death of a person does not extinguish our right or our duty to pray for him: but it ought not be quoted as authority for such prayers on behalf of the dead as are very different in kind from the one of which we have an example here. Many other kinds of intercession for the dead may be reasonable and allowable; but this passage proves no more than that some kinds of intercession for the dead are allowable; viz., those in which we pray that God will have mercy at the day of judgment on those who have done good to us and others, during their life upon earth (Alfred Plummer (1841-1926) (Anglican): The Expositor’s Bible (edited by W. Robertson Nicoll), The Pastoral Epistles, London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1891, pp. 324-326).

James Maurice Wilson (1836-1931) (Anglican)

We have, therefore, the sanction of St. Paul for remembering inn our prayers, and interceding for, those who have now passed into the other world . . . (Truths New and Old, Westminster: Archibald Constable & Co., 1900, p. 141)

**Sydney Charles Gayford (Anglican): **

. . . the most satisfactory explanation is that Onesiphorus was dead. . . . (The Future State, New York: Edwin S. Gorham, second edition, 1905, pp. 56-57)

And so we may hold with some confidence that we have in this passage the authority of an Apostle in praying for the welfare of the departed. (ibid.)

John Henry Bernard (1860-1927) (Anglican)

On the whole then it seems probable that Onesiphorus was dead when St. Paul prayed on his behalf . . . (The Pastoral Epistles, Cambridge University Press, 1899, p. 114:
 
yankee_drifter said:
Randy gives 2 verses to try and support prayers for the dead against the myriad of scriptures that teaches its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment.

The fact that Paul prayed for this brother in Christ actually strengthens the case that he was not dead, since there is not a shred of evidence in the NT that prayers for the dead are acceptable.
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Really?

Acts 20:7-12
7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!” 11Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.

“Once to die and then the judgment”, right?

So, Yankee_drifter, was Eutychus dead or alive after he hit the ground? Either you dismiss the miracle or you admit that Paul prayed for a dead person.

Which is it? 🤷
 
Prayers and rituals for the dead are abominations before God (Deut. 18:9,11; 26:13-14).
 
God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:
1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:
Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, **“O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” **11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way **there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (**how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15** I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."**

2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God." 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
 
JacobG said:
Prayers and rituals for the dead are abominations before God (Deut. 18:9,11; 26:13-14).
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Are these the same as Christian prayer for the dead?
  1. Did Paul pray for a dead man named Onesiphorous?
  2. Did Paul pray for a dead man named Eutychus?
  3. Did Peter pray for a dead woman named Tabitha?
 
JacobG said:
Prayers and rituals for the dead are abominations before God (Deut. 18:9,11; 26:13-14).
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9When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
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How is a prayer for someone who has died in anyway related to the prohibitions in Deut. 18? I don’t believe that what Catholics do, even in intercessory pray, is at all similar to this.

Jon
 
yankee_drifter said:
Randy gives 2 verses to try and support prayers for the dead against the myriad of scriptures that teaches its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment. The Bible teaches there’s only 2 destinations in the afterlife-heaven and hell. It teaches that we must all give an account before Christ at the Judgment Seat. It teaches that the righteous have their names in the Book of Life. It does not teach that we can pray someone out of hell. Nor does it teach purification (purgatory) after death. Jesus Christ completely purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him (1 John 1:7, 2:2) The Bible nowhere teaches there’s any second chance after we die. Paul said to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord. In other words, the righteous are guaranteed heaven. This is why Joshua said: Choose you this day whom you will serve. (Joshua 24:15). We must make our decision for Christ now while we are alive. If one dies an apostate, an unbeliever, prayer for “mercy” would be worthless because mercy will be bestowed on the basis of one’s personal relationship with the Lord, not on that of another’s actions (Ezekiel 18:20; 2 Cor 5:10)
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yankee_drifter, I posted the following on the Purgatory thread.
Hi, relatively new Catholic (convert) and former Protestant here. I thought that maybe I could add a new perspective.

moondweller and most Protesants fail to realize that their theology entails a process. What Protestant theology refers to as “Glorification” or “Ultimate Sanctification” (as moondweller referred to it earlier) is a process, i.e., there is a before and after state of being: a state of being at the end of life prior to death where the Christian’s disposition can still succumb to the temptation of sin, and a state of being in Heaven where this disposition has been purged by God as evidenced by the fact that the person in Heaven will no longer sin. This change in the state of being effected by God after a person dies involves a sequence, hence it is a process. Moreover, it is a purification since the change removes the inclination to sin. How is this any different than the official Catholic teaching of Purgatory?

(1) Christians who have received the grace of salvation continue to sin. (2) No sin in Heaven. Hence, (3) God effects a change after death. As I understand it, official Catholic teaching is that Purgatory is a purification process after death. It has never been officially defined as a place.
yankee_drifter, the Bible says that Christians are members of the Body of Christ. If life is eternal, which all Christians agree that it is, then Christians do not cease being members of the Body of Christ at death. The Bible tells us repeatedly to pray for fellow Christians.

Pride, vanity and selfishness are incompatible with the agape union in Heaven with God and loved ones. In my thinking, the degree to which we are consumed by pride and its concomitant sins (disordered actions not in accordance with God’s will) determines the degree of suffering loss that we will experience in order to enter Heaven, where there will be no disposition to sin. It’s completely biblical to pray for a fellow Christian that experiences suffering. Suffering can be necessary for the good of a person. Surgery, for example, can cause suffering but cure a person of an ailment, and it is quite charitable and biblical to pray for that person.
 
JacobG said:
Prayers and rituals for the dead are abominations before God (Deut. 18:9,11; 26:13-14).
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Deut. 18:9-11: “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the abhorrent practices of those nations. No one shall be found among you who makes a son or daughter pass through fire, or who practices divination, or is a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or one who casts spells, or who consults ghosts or spirits, or who seeks oracles from the dead.”

This is a prohibition against soothsaying, divination, seeking oracles from the dead, etc. The passages you cited do not prohibit Christians from praying for fellow members of the Body of Christ who have left this earth.
 
JacobG said:
Prayers and rituals for the dead are abominations before God (Deut. 18:9,11; 26:13-14).
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Deuteronomy 18:10-11 Explained

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.” The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

catholic.com/library/pray…the_saints.asp
 
Randy_Carson said:
Originally Posted by JacobG
Prayers and rituals for the dead are abominations before God (Deut. 18:9,11; 26:13-14).
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Two things to add.
Jesus says that, “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Mt 22:23) Did he not also appear in the Transfiguration conversing with Moses and Elijah?
Those who are with Christ in heaven are NOT dead therefore we do not pray to “The Dead” but rather to those who are “Asleep in Christ.” (the term St Paul uses in 1Cor 15:18)
We do use the term "dead’ and “death” to refer to those who have passed on, but this can be confusing and perhaps that is where the problem is coming from.

Peace
James
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