Prayer for the Dead

[JacobG]

Here’s an interesting passage about the futility of praying for the dead.

Luke 16:27-31 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

A deceased man in torment for eternity shows that its too late for him. All the prayers of the living will not benefit him. So he begs and asks that his 5 brothers be told the truth about eternal damnation. Abraham says its a waste of time. If those who are alive will not listen to living people (prophets even), then they won’t listen to a raised up dead person.

 

[swords99]

Concerning Tabitha, Peter performed a miracle by raising her from the dead. What does this have to do with praying to the dead to intercede for us, or praying for the dead to loose them from their sins?

Concerning Eutychus, It is unclear whether Eutychus was killed by the fall and Paul raised him, or whether he simply seemed to be dead, with Paul ensuring that he is still alive. Nothing whatsoever to do with the catholic doctrine of praying for or to the dead.

As for Onesiphorous nothing in the passage says he was deceased. This is mere assumption. One cannot make a doctrine from silence. Even if he were dead, we cannot take an isolated verse while ignoring what the New Testament teaches about the state of the dead. Paul merely asking that God ‘be merciful’ to Onesiphorous is not purgatory. Paul always spoke on mercy, grace, etc. Paul never said “You are in communication with them now; you can pray for them now; you can further their progress in holiness now.”

Jesus said: You should pray like this: “Our father in heaven…” So prayers are to be addressed to God. Jesus also said: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father except by me. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." Matt 6:9, John 14:6, 14

Thus Jesus ruled out the idea that anyone else could fill the role of intercessor.
The apostle Paul said that Christ is now at the Father’s right hand and pleads for us. He is living forever to intercede for all who come to God through him. Ro. 8:34, Heb 7:25

Jesus is LORD

 

[Randy_Carson]

Here’s an interesting passage about the futility of praying for the dead.

Luke 16:27-31 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

A deceased man in torment for eternity shows that its too late for him. All the prayers of the living will not benefit him. So he begs and asks that his 5 brothers be told the truth about eternal damnation. Abraham says its a waste of time. If those who are alive will not listen to living people (prophets even), then they won’t listen to a raised up dead person.

You are correct. Praying for those in hell is a waste of time, and the Catholic Church does not teach otherwise.

Prayers for those in purgatory and bound for heaven are another matter, of course.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Concerning Tabitha, Peter performed a miracle by raising her from the dead. What does this have to do with praying to the dead to intercede for us, or praying for the dead to loose them from their sins?

Concerning Eutychus, It is unclear whether Eutychus was killed by the fall and Paul raised him, or whether he simply seemed to be dead, with Paul ensuring that he is still alive. Nothing whatsoever to do with the catholic doctrine of praying for or to the dead.

So, Paul did not raise Eutychus from the dead?

Great. Then the only NT accounts of the dead being raised involve Jesus and Peter. This is more evidence for the primacy of Peter, the first pope, acting exclusively as the Vicar of Christ.

As for Onesiphorous nothing in the passage says he was deceased. This is mere assumption.

An assumption that lots of Protestant scholars are willing to make then.

One cannot make a doctrine from silence. Even if he were dead, we cannot take an isolated verse while ignoring what the New Testament teaches about the state of the dead.

Nor do we. The Catholic doctrines concerning the afterlife consider the totality of scripture which includes a few books that Luther (for this very reason) elected to remove from your Bible. Blame him.

Paul merely asking that God ‘be merciful’ to Onesiphorous is not purgatory. Paul always spoke on mercy, grace, etc. Paul never said “You are in communication with them now; you can pray for them now; you can further their progress in holiness now.”

One step at a time. Either we can pray for the dead or we cannot. If Paul (and Peter) gave us the example praying for the dead, then we must presume that the the dead can benefit from our prayers. Those in hell cannot not benefit - it’s too late; those in heaven do not need our prayers. Consequently, there must be a third place/state where the dead can benefit. This is known as purgatory.

Jesus said: You should pray like this: “Our father in heaven…” So prayers are to be addressed to God. Jesus also said: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father except by me. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." Matt 6:9, John 14:6, 14

Thus Jesus ruled out the idea that anyone else could fill the role of intercessor.
The apostle Paul said that Christ is now at the Father’s right hand and pleads for us. He is living forever to intercede for all who come to God through him. Ro. 8:34, Heb 7:25

Jesus lives forever to intercede for us. However, Paul also asked other people to pray for him. Why? Paul should NEVER have asked anyone else to intercede for him like that. What a scandal!

What a crock.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell
davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catechism 1030)
Here’s a simple illustration of what Catholics believe is Purgatory’s place in the scheme of things. (NOTE: Due to the limitations of the forum software, I can’t re-produce the original graphic image seen at the website above. Please imagine an arrowhead at the end of the line pointing from Purgatory to Heaven, and ignore the dots I am forced to use as spacers.)

…Heaven (eternal)
…/
…/…
…/…
…Earth------>Purgatory (temporary)
…
…
…
…Hell (eternal)

Catholics believe that some people go straight to Heaven, which is also what Evangelicals believe. It would be very cool to go straight to Heaven. Let’s pray for each other for that. The Church believes that Purgatory is a place to clean up the effects of “Venial Sin” (not Mortal Sin which if un-repented, leads to eternal punishment - hell). If we were to put it in Evangelical terms, Purgatory would be where the backslider would get cleaned up before joining the wedding banquet of the Lord - so he wouldn’t be thrown out (Mat 22:12). For nothing unclean can enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27). Purgatory does not remove sin itself. Jesus did that on the Cross. Purgatory removes the effects of sin. An imperfect way to look at it is to think of a nail hammered into a piece of wood. My father would pull the nail out of the wood (sin) but there would still be a dent in the wood. Purgatory is the process of straightening out the wood (the effect of sin). Certainly Jesus can and does the clean up. He is a merciful God but he is also a ***just ***God.

People who rebelliously refuse to believe that Jesus is Lord and who do not yield to Him don’t go to Purgatory. They go to hell.

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

The fact is you only have “support” of this false doctrine from an apocryphal book, Maccabees, which the Jews rejected as uninspired and spurious. It was never in the Hebrew canon and the Jews have the Scriptures in its purity. The NT tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God.

The Early Christians accepted the book, ST Augustine even references it to support praying for the dead. One prominent party of Jews in JEsus’ time rejected the canonicity of the book of Ecclesiates, not to mention ALL the New testament afterwards at the Rabbinical Council of Jamnia around AD 90? The rabbinical council has the Protestant OT canon, because they despised Jews that showed Greek influence, which is somewhat ironic since many of the Pharisees studied Greek philosophy. Regardless it was not til after Christ died and transferred the Authority to the Apostle, taking it away from the Pharisees and Saduccees that the rabbis meet to establish a universal Jewish Canon.

its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment. The Bible teaches there’s only 2 destinations in the afterlife-heaven and hell. It teaches that we must all give an account before Christ at the Judgment Seat. It teaches that the righteous have their names in the Book of Life. It does not teach that we can pray someone out of hell.

Yes generally man only dies once according to Hebrews. (Some die twice like Lazarus did so it is not a strict rule). Regardless, purgatory is the result of the particular judgment man faces the moment he dies, those in purgatory were judged righteous and were required to be purified first YEs there are only 2 final destinations AFTER Judgment day, before Judgment Day theres Heaven, purgatory and a sort of holding place of punishment for those going to hell, after Judgment day even the damned return to their bodies for physically punishment for eternity. There are only 2 eternities, Heaven and Hell. 1 Corinthians 3:15 mentions someone being saved “as thru fire” after their works are judged. No one prays for the damned in Hell, in fact that is a sin and a heresy to pray that the damned come out of Hell. If you read the Oneisiphorous passage you will see St Paul is praying for him that he receieve mercy on THAT DAY ie Judgment Day

 

[JRKH]

Here’s an interesting passage about the futility of praying for the dead.

Luke 16:27-31 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

A deceased man in torment for eternity shows that its too late for him. All the prayers of the living will not benefit him. So he begs and asks that his 5 brothers be told the truth about eternal damnation. Abraham says its a waste of time. If those who are alive will not listen to living people (prophets even), then they won’t listen to a raised up dead person.

I would disagree that this demonstrates the futility of praying for the dead.

While it is certainly true that a person condemned to hell has no chance at salvation, we cannot know who is in hell and who is not. Therefore we cannot know if our prayers are for a condemned person or one in Purgatory.
Abrahams comment has nothing to do with praying for the dead, but rather has to do with sending a message or giving enlightenment.

Peace
James

 

[adriancombe]

Randy gives 2 verses to try and support prayers for the dead against the myriad of scriptures that teaches its appointed once for man to die, then the judgment.

The fact is you only have “support” of this false doctrine from an apocryphal book, Maccabees, which the Jews rejected as uninspired and spurious…

Hardly. *In 1 Cor. 15:29, Paul was deliberately paraphrasing 2 Maccabees 12:44

1 Cor. 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?*

2 Maccabees 12:43-45 - “He also took a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had falled would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” *

This not only shows that Paul relied on 2 Maccabees, thereby ratifying it. It also removes any doubt as to what Paul meant by ‘baptism for the dead’ - suffering in atonement for them. *This is the same spiritual sense of baptism used by Our Lord Jesus when referring to His Passion and Death:

Matt 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Mark 10 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized * *

Luke 12 50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

 

[swords99]

Quote from Randy:

So, Paul did not raise Eutychus from the dead?

Great. Then the only NT accounts of the dead being raised involve Jesus and
Peter. This is more evidence for the primacy of Peter, the first pope, acting
exclusively as the Vicar of Christ.

Randy, are you for real? The Bible is not clear whether Eurychus was dead or just in a deep sleep. If you need a vague passage to substantiate a doctrine, then that’s really sad and very desperate. Paul miraculously cured a lame man. He was fully capable of working miracles because its God alone who brings it to pass. John 11:12 says: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. If you now admit the possibility that Eurychus may not have been dead, then that demolishes what you posted earlier about prayers to/for the dead.

Quote from JRKH:

Those who are with Christ in heaven are NOT dead therefore we do not pray to
“The Dead” but rather to those who are "Asleep in Christ.

They are not DECEASED?? Oh, c’mon this is ridiculous. It doesn’t even bear a response. This is word play.

Concerning Paul asking for people to pray for him, he was very much alive when he asked for prayers from his brothers in Christ. What may I ask does this have to do with prayers to/for dead people?? Praying to the saints is not equivalent to asking fellow Christians for prayer.

The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. It nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. It gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. They are not omniscient.Only God is. Even glorified in Heaven, they do not possess all knowledge. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns. There is not a single example of Christians praying to dead saints in all of the Bible.

When we read Revelations, there are dead martyrs crying with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?’ This shows prayers for them by the living is futile.

Jesus is LORD

.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Quote from Randy:

Randy, are you for real? The Bible is not clear whether Eurychus was dead or just in a deep sleep. If you need a vague passage to substantiate a doctrine, then that’s really sad and very desperate.

Nope. Don’t need it. I have an infallible Church to guide me. But I am trying to help you come to the realization that it is okay to pray for those who died.

If you now admit the possibility that Eurychus may not have been dead, then that demolishes what you posted earlier about prayers to/for the dead.

Okay. Have it your way. Eutychus wasn’t dead.

Thus, only Jesus and Peter raised the dead…more evidence for the primacy of Peter and his role as vicar of Christ. :dancing:

What about Onesiphorous? Hmmm?

 

[JRKH]

Quote from Randy:

Randy, are you for real? The Bible is not clear whether Eurychus was dead or just in a deep sleep. If you need a vague passage to substantiate a doctrine, then that’s really sad and very desperate. Paul miraculously cured a lame man. He was fully capable of working miracles because its God alone who brings it to pass. John 11:12 says: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. If you now admit the possibility that Eurychus may not have been dead, then that demolishes what you posted earlier about prayers to/for the dead.

A couple of things here.

1. The Bible is certainly clear about his being dead. The KJV has this for Acts 20:9
   And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
   Paul than comes and says no he is asleep, and raises him.
   Compare this to Matthew 9: 18 and 24
   18 While He was saying these things to them, a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.”
   24 He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.

Note the similarity between these two accounts.
Now - Did will you deny that Jesus Raised the girl from the dead?
Is the bible explicit here?

1. You quote John about those of faith doing even greater acts than Jesus did. So If Christ could raise the dead, so could Paul and Paul did so, by His prayers and the Power of God.

Quote from JRKH:

Those who are with Christ in heaven are NOT dead therefore we do not pray to
“The Dead” but rather to those who are "Asleep in Christ.

They are not DECEASED?? Oh, c’mon this is ridiculous. It doesn’t even bear a response. This is word play.
.

You know if you had read and integrated my post you might not have found the need for such a “non-response”. Word play is exactly my point. How we use the word “dead” and so forth can indeed effect how we read and understand each other. I made my post as an opportunity for us to come to a better understanding of each others position and how we use terms. Your response indicates a decided lack of willingness on your part to do so. Particularly since you ignore the fact that Christ HIMSELF tells us that those who died/expiredpassed-on/fell asleep etc., in God’s graces ARE NOT DEAD and He demonstrate that fact by appearing to Peter, James and John in the the company of Moses and Elisha.

If you wish to talk about “Word Play” then look seriously at your own argument about the incidence in Acts. The Bible clearly says that the boy was “Picked up Dead” (Acts 20:9). Yet you wish to deny it and say it isn’t clear. Yet it is virutally the same as the passage in Matthew where Jesus raises the girl, and is certainly a demonstration of Christ’s miraculous power to heal, even raising the dead.

Peace
James