Prayer is an illusion

[Exalt]

And he’s brought you here Coincidence or God-incidence - maybe right here you are at the place where you’ll find the truth.

We all sometimes make the mistake of looking for the big loud thunderclap when we should be listening for the still small voice instead. And when it comes to God we’re all terrible listeners :yup:

Well, I’m pretty good at listening to human beings. And God’s certianly a much better communicator than a human being. So aparently, God is choosing to communicate in a secret way. And you know what, I’m a bit tired of being told that I’m not listening hard enough. The truth is, I’ve been listening for years. I used to be Catholic - and I never once heard his voice.

 

[LilyM]

Well, I’m pretty good at listening to human beings. And God’s certianly a much better communicator than a human being. So aparently, God is choosing to communicate in a secret way. And you know what, I’m a bit tired of being told that I’m not listening hard enough. The truth is, I’ve been listening for years. I used to be Catholic - and I never once heard his voice.

Bringing you here to CAF is a secret way of communicating? Hardly. I would think God’s being fairly obvious with that one.

You may not have heard his voice in the Catholic Church, plenty of us (including myself) have. Or in other churches. So if you can’t hear, you can’t automatically assume that it’s because God’s not there or not trying to get through to you!

You remind me of a colour-blind person being told by person after person that x colour is green, but insisting that it’s red even though you’re the only person in your neighbourhood who sees it that way.

 

[Exalt]

Bringing you here to CAF is a secret way of communicating? Hardly. I would think God’s being fairly obvious with that one.

So you’re saying that God has lead me here? Well, I also post in a conservative Muslim forum. How do I know that God isn’t “calling” me there? On the contrary, it seems that I’m just curious and like to have religious debates with people.

God didn’t miraculously open a browser for me. I posted on this forum back when I was Catholic. You can look in my post history and see that. It seems my decision to post on CAF was mine and mine alone. No different than the thousands of other decisions I’ve made over my life.

Now, I don’t know how you can possibly suggest that God is being “obvious”. On the contrary, when I make an “obvious” communication with a friend, I tell him directly, in person, using clear and direct language. I want him to understand, so I’m as clear as I possibily can be.

So, I’m pretty good at being clear. And yet, God hasn’t spokent o me directly using clear and direct language. Now, he certianly is *capable *of being clear, and yet has chosen not to. My conclusion? God wants to be vauge and secretive and mysterious. Why?

You may not have heard his voice in the Catholic Church, plenty of us (including myself) have. Or in other churches. So if you can’t hear, you can’t automatically assume that it’s because God’s not there or not trying to get through to you!

So God told person X to go to the Catholic Church, and person Y to go the Buddhist temple, and person W to go to the Jewish Temple? That’s not very consistant on God’s part, is it?

 

[LilyM]

So you’re saying that God has lead me here? Well, I also post in a conservative Muslim forum. How do I know that God isn’t “calling” me there? On the contrary, it seems that I’m just curious and like to have religious debates with people.

God didn’t miraculously open a browser for me. I posted on this forum back when I was Catholic. You can look in my post history and see that. It seems my decision to post on CAF was mine and mine alone. No different than the thousands of other decisions I’ve made over my life.

Now, I don’t know how you can possibly suggest that God is being “obvious”. On the contrary, when I make an “obvious” communication with a friend, I tell him directly, in person, using clear and direct language. I want him to understand, so I’m as clear as I possibily can be.

So, I’m pretty good at being clear. And yet, God hasn’t spokent o me directly using clear and direct language. Now, he certianly is capable of being clear, and yet has chosen not to. My conclusion? God wants to be vauge and secretive and mysterious. Why?

So God told person X to go to the Catholic Church, and person Y to go the Buddhist temple, and person W to go to the Jewish Temple? That’s not very consistant on God’s part, is it?

Firstly - you really make yourself perfectly understood to everyone around you and they all make themseves perfectly understood to you? I’d like to see you try it with, say, a six-month old child, or a person from Tadjikhistan who only speaks Tadjikh or whatever the local lingo is.

I can speak as clearly as I like, but if I speak a language that the person I’m trying to talk to doesn’t know - and their language is not my first or native language - then we’re going to have trouble communicating. Not because either of us is deliberately being vague or mysterious, certainly.

You simply don’t understand God’s language. Not that the rest of us do completely either - some don’t expect him to only address us in English though.

Secondly - if I wanted you to come to my house I’d first tell you to go to your nearest airport, because you’re halfway across the world. I wouldn’t give the same instructions to my friend who lives half an hour’s drive away. It doesn’t mean I don’t want both of you to END UP in the same place - namely at my house

I think your desire to find God, and your examination of both Islam and Catholicism, is an important step in God’s plan for you, and has been instilled in you by God. Of course it’s not the end of it by any means.

And yes, it’s hardly beyond the bounds or capabilities of God to use an initial attraction to any faith, even for a false faith, to draw you closer to him, though if you’re open to his will you won’t STAY in that false faith. Just look at the numerous conversion stories on here you’ll see that sort of ‘faith-hopping’ happening at times.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

Well, OP, as a practicing Catholic, I also feel as you do, in fact I could have posted very similar myself.
Maybe it is because I have a naturally cynical personality.
Yet I stay because I don’t see anybody or anything offering me the same hope and promise. A subject of frequent confessions, priests just “don’t get it”.
I struggle with the “Loving Father” bit-my own Dad would not be so silent and so cryptic.

 

[Sixtus]

Exalt said:

I stated that the problem of evil wouldn’t be so bad if God wasn’t distant

God is so close that if He got any closer, we would cease to be us but Him!

You have no idea what you are asking for. If we were exposed to His inifinate all powerful majestic Glory would be too much for us, it would simply crush us out of existence

Your post suggests you really do not understand that this all loving all merciful all humble God of ours, is of such imensity in every respect, nothing known to man can withstand His imensity.

God has no wish to crush us out of existence by the sheer weight of His power.

For the moment He appears distant. That is our chance to come to know Him by faith that our faith may be proven and tested.

If you could experience a personal encounter with the Holy Spirit of God you would not want to live a second longer in this mortal existence. You would literally ‘lose the will to live’! That is not what you were given mortality for, but to live it and enjoy it and above all: to ‘come to know Him and to chose of our own freewill to love Him’, not to wish to abandon it in preference for death

Trust me, this totally unworthy wretched sinner, whose sins are scarlet and crimson, has experienced such a personal encounter

 

[cheeto1]

If you are in the mood to listen for the voice of God, you can go
to adoration. God doesn’t need to use vocal chords to speak to
you, He has the power to speak to your heart.

Do you put a time limit on God, and then say He is silent?
I’m glad the apostles didn’t do that. Jesus told them to go to
Jerusalem and wait for the Holy Spirit. They didn’t know what
that means. They did as they were told. They waited all day,
they waited all the next day, they waited a week. How long did
they have to wait for this “Holy Spirit”? Maybe they should just
go home, Jesus didn’t tell them how long to wait, they are
waiting every day and nothing is happening. They could have
come on Catholic Answers Forum if it existed back then, and
told everyone here, “God is silent, I guess He doesn’t love us
after all”. They chose to keep waiting, as long as it takes, and
it took 40 days.

Do you believe that God is your co-pilot, and that He’s doing
a miserable job? You will find out that it’s you who are the
co-pilot, and instead of praying about your job, you should be
praying about His job, and how you can help Him.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

God is so close that if He got any closer, we would cease to be us but Him!

That’s just an excuse. Did Thomas cease to be Thomas just because Jesus appeared to him and put his finger in his wounds? No.

You have no idea what you are asking for. If we were exposed to His inifinate all powerful majestic Glory would be too much for us, it would simply crush us out of existence

That’s like watching too much TV! It’s “Jesus, appear to me and all my doubts will disappear”, not “Jesus, fall upon me squarely, I can take your body weight at a standard acceleration of 9.80665 m·s−2”.

For the moment He appears distant. That is our chance to come to know Him by faith that our faith may be proven and tested.

The deal, therefore, is: Believe the unlikely unreasonable unseen, and you will avoid eternal torture. Believe in the right religion (one in hundreds), and live, believe in the wrong one and suffer. All of those other religions are also contain beliefs about unlikely unreasonable unseen stuff, but make the wrong decision and it’s barbecue time.

Right. An all-loving God, with a keen sense of convincing publicity and a concept of salvation that includes an eternity-long torture of which he doesn’t intend to let you out, and it calls it, of all things, mercifulness.

… All he’d have to do is stick to his word that “ask and thou shalt receive”. If he said that and didn’t intend to fulfill it because we’re dumb and faulty, why did he assure such a thing to begin with?

“Ask and thou shalt receive (But on second thought, and off record, by the way, better not, because you’re dumb and faulty, better leave you dumb and faulty guys out there suffering, needy and abandoned, and when, after never seeing me, when you’ve had enough and sure my word is worth monopoly money, then I will judge you for doubting and send you to hell for all time -LOL!) allelluia”

 

[LogosSokratikos]

If you are in the mood to listen for the voice of God, you can go
to adoration. God doesn’t need to use vocal chords to speak to
you, He has the power to speak to your heart.

Curious, so does Lord Krishna. And hosts of others. And in every case, the deal is, “If you believe, you will have faith, and if you have faith you will be saved”. Notice the circularity? “Believe and thou shalt be saved” How do I believe? “By my grace”. How do I get it? “By faith” How do I get that? “That’s grace, a free gift from me”. May I have some oh Lord? What do I have to do? “Believe, LOL!” I’m not laughing, Jesus. “Then go to hell! …literally! LOL”.

Fair deal.

Do you put a time limit on God, and then say He is silent?
I’m glad the apostles didn’t do that. Jesus told them to go to
Jerusalem and wait for the Holy Spirit. They didn’t know what
that means. They did as they were told. They waited all day,
they waited all the next day, they waited a week. How long did
they have to wait for this “Holy Spirit”? Maybe they should just
go home, Jesus didn’t tell them how long to wait, they are
waiting every day and nothing is happening. They could have
come on Catholic Answers Forum if it existed back then, and
told everyone here, “God is silent, I guess He doesn’t love us
after all”. They chose to keep waiting, as long as it takes, and
it took 40 days.

They had to believe in the first place. And, if we take the tale as it goes, that wasn’t hard to do, since they saw the miracles. That’s what it says, anyway.
In realityland, you don’t see guys raising the dead, walking on water and healing lepers.

How long did
they have to wait for this “Holy Spirit”? Maybe they should just
go home, Jesus didn’t tell them how long to wait, they are
waiting every day and nothing is happening. They could have
come on Catholic Answers Forum if it existed back then, and
told everyone here, “God is silent, I guess He doesn’t love us
after all”. They chose to keep waiting, as long as it takes, and
it took 40 days.

No, we should go to Catholic Answers, believe them, taking their word for it, then going to an evangelical site, taking their word for it, changing our minds, going to a muslim site, taking their word for it, changing our minds again…

All on the basis of taking someone’s word for it. Sound as a bell.

That’s why there are so many religions and denominations. Humans have the tendency to believe stuff upon insufficient evidence. I don’t remember who said it, but it goes something like, “Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones”.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

When you pray to get a job, in a country where most people have jobs, and therefore have the odds in favor of having one, and then getting the job… pray or not, you were liable to get a job sooner or later anyway!

When you pray to get well from an illness, when bodies are prone to heal by virtue of their very nature, and living in a country where life expectancy (of normal people, who get ill and heal over and over) of 77 years, the odds are you will heal, pray or not. Then you thank God and feel that you’re faith has been confirmed.

God answers prayers when there is cancer, risky pregnancies, etc, but doesn’t answer prayers that would need growing another limb! Curious? People naturally heal from illnesses but don’t grow limbs… Coincidence? Did you find out if anyone, praying or not, gets well from cancer or risky pregnancies, before you consider your prayer has been answered? How many pray to win the lottery? If someone wins it, is the prayer answered? Jeepers! One person one the big prize? Miracle? Miracle is for more than one to win, when there is only one prize, or for money to fall out of the sky without a lottery where there is a prize all along anyway.

But God answers prayer when the events were likely or unlikely, but always possible, anyway. “If you had the faith the size of a mustard seed, you would tell that mountian to move, and it will”. Now that’s a sight to be seen. I’ll wait right here. I’m sure there must be someone on Cath Answers with a faith that small. I’ll be back for some coffee in a moment, I have plenty of windows here and I’m surrounded by mountains. I’ll sit here. Do I have my 40 days?

 

[Tonks40]

I think the problem with most unbelievers is that they’re trying to measure God’s presence by human measures - space, time, location, etc. These are all limiting factors of trying to discern the spiritual and the divine. Finding evidence of God’s existance is something humanity has struggled with for ages.

If one is willing to see “outside-the-box” so-to-speak, they will find that belief in a Divine Person would be more forthcoming. Instead of limiting themselves to finding evidence in tangible miracles, revelations, and such, contemplating on just the simple things, such as nature, human relationships, even an ant on the ground, might be the key to opening up that door towards a power or being that is acknowledged or accepted as being responsible for all things in this world. Even some of the world’s oldest religions value that sense of wonder and amazement in the world’s existance and attribute it to something that is beyond human creation and comprehension.

More than likely, unbelievers will see this and say, “Well, that kind of thought doesn’t lead towards God; everything can be explained by science; God doesn’t make sense to me, thus God isn’t real.” Bounderies, limits, smokescreens brought to you and created by man.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

I think the problem with most unbelievers is that they’re trying to measure God’s presence by human measures - space, time, location, etc. These are all limiting factors of trying to discern the spiritual and the divine. Finding evidence of God’s existance is something humanity has struggled with for ages.

So the deal, reformulated once more, is, “if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain, but don’t ever dream of seeing the mountin move. And, oh, by the way, if you don’t beleive me, fry in hell”. Or, as Paul put it, “faith is the evidence of things unseen”, but there is no evidence, because you shouldn’t use human measures. Christianity seeks to convert the hindu and the muslim into a religion that has just as much “invisible evidence” (notice the oxymoron right there) as their customary religions. Good luck!

And I, as a freethinker, will rather go to a doctor. Call it whatever, but I prefer the non-oxymoronic evidence of science than the “non-evident evidence” whacky: ) that Christianity wants us to believe.

Roman adage: “The Gods help those who help themselves”. Looks like the pagans fancied the same sort of intangible evidence Christians do.

 

[Tonks40]

So the deal, reformulated once more, is, “if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain, but don’t ever dream of seeing the mountin move. And, oh, by the way, if you don’t beleive me, fry in hell”. Or, as Paul put it, “faith is the evidence of things unseen”, but there is no evidence, because you shouldn’t use human measures. Christianity seeks to convert the hindu and the muslim into a religion that has just as much “invisible evidence” (notice the oxymoron right there) as their customary religions. Good luck!

And I, as a freethinker, will rather go to a doctor. Call it whatever, but I prefer the non-oxymoronic evidence of science than the “non-evident evidence” whacky: ) that Christianity wants us to believe.

Roman adage: “The Gods help those who help themselves”. Looks like the pagans fancied the same sort of intangible evidence Christians do.

Like I said.

You must’ve missed the part where I did not isolate Christianity.

 

[Hopeful_Peter]

I was an agnostic for some time and I understand the difficulty about prayer and there have been times even after I came to believe when I wondered whether or not I was simply talking to myself. But whenever I feel that way I remind myself that my journey to Catholicism involved study. I gradually became convinced of the truth of the existence of God and of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Once I had that firm foundation the questions about prayer were answered. I recommend you read St. Theresa of Avila. Edith Stein, considered the foremost female philosopher of the 20th century, read the life of St. Theresa and converted from agnosticism to Catholicism. You may also find CS Lewis helpful. He was an athiest who became a great Christian Apologist. They are only two of many great intellectuals who came to believe. They could certainly see through myths far more easily than I, and they did not doubt the power of prayer.
I have a feeling you were deeply disappointed in your prayer life and cannot get over the hurt. I am praying for you.

 

[Tonks40]

So the deal, reformulated once more, is, “if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain, but don’t ever dream of seeing the mountin move. And, oh, by the way, if you don’t beleive me, fry in hell”. Or, as Paul put it, “faith is the evidence of things unseen”, but there is no evidence, because you shouldn’t use human measures. Christianity seeks to convert the hindu and the muslim into a religion that has just as much “invisible evidence” (notice the oxymoron right there) as their customary religions. Good luck!

And I, as a freethinker, will rather go to a doctor. Call it whatever, but I prefer the non-oxymoronic evidence of science than the “non-evident evidence” whacky: ) that Christianity wants us to believe.

Roman adage: “The Gods help those who help themselves”. Looks like the pagans fancied the same sort of intangible evidence Christians do.

Once again, your playing it safe inside the box! It’s interesting to me that you describe yourself as a “humanist and freethinker.” The part about being a humanist is perfectly obvious based on your posts. But freethinker? My friend, that seems further from the reality you present to us, and quite an oxymoron in itself.

The recommendation given by Hopeful Peter on C.S. Lewis’ book “Mere Christianity” may be something you might want to look at. You would also be remiss in your freethinking mentality not explore some of the writings of the great philosophers of the modern time. Don’t “box” yourself in to the conclusion that the Divine does not exist because you insist on physical, solid, tangible evidence. I know that there’s a China out there somewhere - but I’ve never seen it, nor will I ever see it in my lifetime.

 

[Exalt]

Once again, your playing it safe inside the box! It’s interesting to me that you describe yourself as a “humanist and freethinker.” The part about being a humanist is perfectly obvious based on your posts. But freethinker? My friend, that seems further from the reality you present to us, and quite an oxymoron in itself.

The recommendation given by Hopeful Peter on C.S. Lewis’ book “Mere Christianity” may be something you might want to look at. You would also be remiss in your freethinking mentality not explore some of the writings of the great philosophers of the modern time. Don’t “box” yourself in to the conclusion that the Divine does not exist because you insist on physical, solid, tangible evidence. I know that there’s a China out there somewhere - but I’ve never seen it, nor will I ever see it in my lifetime.

I actually own Mere Christianity. I’ve read it probably 20 times or so.

The difference between China and God: You can go literally to China and come back. God? Not without dying.

 

[cheeto1]

Or, as Paul put it, “faith is the evidence of things unseen”

The apostles had such strong faith, that every one was willing to
die for it. John was the only one who died of old age. Why would
they be willing to die for a lie? All they had to do to save their
lives was renounce their faith. First they were hiding in fear of
their lives, then they saw Jesus risen from the dead. They saw
Him go up to heaven. The angels said to them “why are you
looking up in the sky?” “This Jesus will return to you in the
same way.” Now we ourselves have the benefit of this knowledge, because the book of Revelations tells us that when
He does return, everyone will know who He is, even those who
don’t believe in Him.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

I was an agnostic for some time and I understand the difficulty about prayer and there have been times even after I came to believe when I wondered whether or not I was simply talking to myself. But whenever I feel that way I remind myself that my journey to Catholicism involved study. I gradually became convinced of the truth of the existence of God and of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Once I had that firm foundation the questions about prayer were answered. I recommend you read St. Theresa of Avila. Edith Stein, considered the foremost female philosopher of the 20th century, read the life of St. Theresa and converted from agnosticism to Catholicism. You may also find CS Lewis helpful. He was an athiest who became a great Christian Apologist. They are only two of many great intellectuals who came to believe. They could certainly see through myths far more easily than I, and they did not doubt the power of prayer.
I have a feeling you were deeply disappointed in your prayer life and cannot get over the hurt. I am praying for you.

I am grateful for your thoughts and your prayers.
Nevertheless, biographies of folks that were convinced are not evidence. Truth is not what we want it to be, think it could be or would be nice (in our view) if it were true. Truth is correspondence between words and reality.

I did not stop believing from not getting prayers answered. I once thought like you folks, and it felt “good inside” to wait upon God patiently and humblely. It was after I stopped believing that I realized the lack of truth-value correspondence between the mustardseed-faith-and-mountain bit and reality… To be exact, I started to observe, like an anthropologist would, people’s statements when they spoke of answered prayers, and it was just to obvious they generally pray on the fortune wheel of events, try and try again, until the needle falls on their number. The odds favor the needle falling on the number at some point in time. It would be unlikely it never falling. It would be unlikely you never got a job again, and it is unlikely if you work hard at healing, that you won’t heal.

Another point is people give thanks to God for all the good. He’s the source of all good. All the bad is mine for the blame. That is serious black and white thinking and a serious attributional bias.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

The apostles had such strong faith, that every one was willing to
die for it. John was the only one who died of old age. Why would
they be willing to die for a lie? All they had to do to save their
lives was renounce their faith. First they were hiding in fear of
their lives, then they saw Jesus risen from the dead. They saw
Him go up to heaven. The angels said to them “why are you
looking up in the sky?” “This Jesus will return to you in the
same way.” Now we ourselves have the benefit of this knowledge, because the book of Revelations tells us that when
He does return, everyone will know who He is, even those who
don’t believe in Him.

Now that would be good, solid evidence.

Failing to believe in such a context would be completely unreasonable.

 

[LogosSokratikos]

Once again, your playing it safe inside the box! It’s interesting to me that you describe yourself as a “humanist and freethinker.” The part about being a humanist is perfectly obvious based on your posts. But freethinker? My friend, that seems further from the reality you present to us, and quite an oxymoron in itself.

From answers.com:

free·think·er (frē’thĭng’kər)
n.
One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation.

freethinking free’think’ing adj. & n.

Also see Wikipedia’s article on Freethought.