Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Good_Fella]

I have noticed that many people, perhaps reacting from a dogged dislike of struggling through “Great Expectations” in high school English classes, experience difficulties in appreciation and understanding any literature of the 1800s, not solely prayers.

The core of this prayer is here: O Mother, implore for us the mercy of your divine Son and conquer with clemency the heart of sinners.

When you take into context the fact that this prayer was written at pretty much the height of ‘monarchy’ in Europe, that language was styled to be what today appears ‘overdone’ and ‘overly descriptive’, and again the often unconscious bias that many possess ‘against’ language which is neither ‘contemporary’ nor possessing buzzwords and ‘acceptable jargon’, you can see that there are a lot more factors going on in the average Protestant’s reading of this prayer. Most of them by nature, especially those of the non denominational groups, or even long established ‘U.S.’ groups, are anti-monarchy to start, often anti-European and specifically anti’CATHOLIC European, often ‘educated’ into thinking that the 19th century was full of hypocritical imperialists who were obsessively anti-woman, proslavery, etc. etc.

Now, IF a person looks at the prayer in context, without a bias against any of the factors above (and believe me there are plenty of other misconceptions they could have as well), he or she will see that this prayer does not ask any ‘more’ of Mary than to ‘implore her Son’ to aid people.

Remember, at this time there were many, MANY ‘sovereigns’, some of quite tiny countries, too.

Like it or not (most Protestants do not), Jesus is a King and by Jewish tradition, duly noted in Scripture and therefore a consideration for any Christian, Mary, the Mother of a King, is a Queen herself. Again, throughout history, few ‘queens’ have possessed the power of rule in and of themselves. But of course, queens and kings on earth are not the same as kings and queens in heaven, and we need not believe that because Queen Victoria was queen ‘in her own right’ that the same MUST hold true for Mary. She is queen ‘because of her Son’.

In this prayer, people ask Mary (whom as Catholics we believe is our Mother too) to look upon them (as a mother) and to bring their prayers to the Son who can relieve them.

Is this really so different from the marriage feast at Cana? Is it? Does Mary ‘do anything’ different in this prayer than she did at Cana?

Well articulated and so true. Thanks, Tantum ergo.

Mary’s role as our Queen Mother and advocate to the people typifies the role of the Gebirah in the ancient Davidic kingdom. She was queen by virtue of her maternity. And her throne was situated next to the throne of the king. Often people brought their petitions to the king through her imploring her intercession. She was their last hope in receiving the king’s favours.

At your right hand stands the queen of gold from ophir.
Psalm 45, 9

PAX :harp:

 

[Peter_J]

Back to the thread topic “prayer” and OP question -

Re: Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?

True, that is the topic of the thread. But I don’t really understand what, at this point, you hope to accomplish by bringing it up again. Seems to me that all points of view have been heard from already.

Perhaps you should ask a follow-up question.

 

[diggingdeeper]

Well articulated and so true. Thanks, Tantum ergo.

Mary’s role as our Queen Mother and advocate to the people typifies the role of the Gebirah in the ancient Davidic kingdom. She was queen by virtue of her maternity. And her throne was situated next to the throne of the king. Often people brought their petitions to the king through her imploring her intercession. She was their last hope in receiving the king’s favours.

At your right hand stands the queen of gold from ophir.
Psalm 45, 9

PAX :harp:

That was back when that tall, thick curtain that separated God from the common man had not yet been torn in half. Now we have the privilege, the invitation, and the responsibility…“Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”–Hebrews 4:16 I think the doctrine of praying to Mary undermines the joy and wonder that we are presented at the prospect of approaching Jesus directly.

 

[Peter_J]

I think the doctrine of praying to Mary undermines the joy and wonder that we are presented at the prospect of approaching Jesus directly.

Only if you allow it to.

Perhaps another quotation might help. This one has to do with the possibility of dogmatically defining Mary as Co-redemptrix:

I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand, which in the meantime is being supported by several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extant from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.

…

Because Mary is the the prototype of the Church as such and is, so to say, the Church in person, this being “with” is realized in her in exemplary fashion. But this “with” must not lead us to forget the “first” of Christ: Everything comes from Him, as the letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything that she is through Him.

The word “Co-Redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct intention is being expressed in the wrong way. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.

• Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (2000)

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There isn’t, and there never has been, the idea that Catholics go to Mary or other saints ‘instead of going directly to Jesus’ as though on the one hand there is JESUS, and (completely separated from Him) is ‘everybody else’, and thus, anybody who speaks of prayer to Mary or another saint is thus automatically bypassing or ‘not going to Jesus’.

This is something that was known to the earliest Christians, from St. Paul onward. It was even known to the earliest reformers like Luther.

Then somehow, some man ‘opened up his bible’, looked forth, and said, “Oh my goodness. What am reading here is, “come to Jesus” and what my ungodly Catholic neighbor down the street is doing is praying to Mary. If she’s praying to Mary, she isn’t praying to Jesus. Has to be.”

And he went out with his own little private interpretation, and started talking with other men, and the more they talked, the more they found ‘wrong’ with Catholics.

Of course, they still have that ‘sticking point’ with John 6.

Hard to understand how the same person who thunders, “It says JESUS, not Mary, in the Bible” is the same person who says,
“I KNOW it SAYS eat my flesh and drink my blood but that can’t be what He MEANS because the Catholics do it and Catholics never get Scripture right, so this has to mean something OTHER than what it really says. . .”

 

[Non_Serviam]

This is something that was known to the earliest Christians, from St. Paul onward. It was even known to the earliest reformers like Luther.

It was indeed a belief known to Luther we have proof of that from his writing. As for the other part of your comment, still no proof.

When Paul spoke of Jesus in his Epistles he wasn’t confused about whom he was speaking. Likewise if one looks at statues of Jesus and Mary produced by Catholics most everyone of sound mind and above the age of reason is able to distinguish between them. Jesus didn’t point to Himself when He told John to behold his mother.

There are differences, even if they inconvenience one’s interpretation of Catholic theology.

This dog still doesn’t hunt.

 

[nbtb1348]

It was indeed a belief known to Luther we have proof of that from his writing. As for the other part of your comment, still no proof.

When Paul spoke of Jesus in his Epistles he wasn’t confused about whom he was speaking. Likewise if one looks at statues of Jesus and Mary produced by Catholics most everyone of sound mind and above the age of reason is able to distinguish between them. Jesus didn’t point to Himself when He told John to behold his mother.

There are differences, even if they inconvenience one’s interpretation of Catholic theology.

This dog still doesn’t hunt.

Friend, all Jesus was doing when He said, “Behold your mother” was telling John to take care of His mother! He was just being a good son."

 

[Tantum_ergo]

That’s because it’s an imaginary dog based on an imaginary notion that there is Jesus standing all by himself and ‘everybody else’ standing ‘away from Him’ so that a prayer to a saint is considered as ‘bypassing Jesus’ in favor of the ‘saint alone’.

And that in a nutshell is the problem of much of Protestant theology–ripping God ‘apart’ from His creation in the mistaken notion that this is reality and more ‘pleasing’ to Him. It isn’t.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What do you suppose we are doing when we, following the injunction of Scripture, call Mary “ever blessed?” Why, we are praying. Are we thus ‘ignoring God?’ Of course not! God commanded that we call her ever-blessed, didn’t He? So in praying to Mary (because we can’t separate Mary from "ever blessed, can we?), we are not putting her in God’s place, or ignoring Jesus, are we? Didn’t He Himself tell us to call her ever-blessed? Isn’t this prayer, from Scripture itself? Isn’t it to and through Mary because (meaning by, and for) she is the Mother of the Lord? Doesn’t the ultimate aim and focus of the prayer to Mary become Jesus Christ, her son?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Friend, all Jesus was doing when He said, “Behold your mother” was telling John to take care of His mother! He was just being a good son."

I know it has been stated repeatedly, but I had to say something incase others have missed it.

Jesus knew when His hour would come. He knew that He would give up His life on the cross for us. He knew down to the smallest detail and minute. And yet, you and others want to claim that it wasn’t until His final dying breaths that He realized He still needed to make arrangements for His mother???

In all due respect, I believe Jesus was a more responsible son that that.

Also…He knew that He would rise on the third day. So, why did He make a point of telling us, as one of the LAST things before He could “finnish” it… “Behold, your mother!” If He knew He was going to rise on the third day and it was just a matter of making living arrangements, He would have known He could take care of that after He rose from the grave.

It seems incredibly significant that He chose THAT moment as He gave Himself on the cross to point out what is no small detail.

God bless

 

[Non_Serviam]

Friend, all Jesus was doing when He said, “Behold your mother” was telling John to take care of His mother! He was just being a good son."

I agree completely with your assessment, that is precisely the intent of His words-I was simply pointing out yet again that the continued assertion that there is no difference between Jesus and Mary is fallacious.

 

[diggingdeeper]

I agree completely with your assessment, that is precisely the intent of His words-I was simply pointing out yet again that the continued assertion that there is no difference between Jesus and Mary is fallacious.

Right there is a HUGE difference, such that it should not even need to be discussed. But the Catholic church has so blurred the lines that we find ourselves having to bring sanity here.

 

[Non_Serviam]

That’s because it’s an imaginary dog based on an imaginary notion that there is Jesus standing all by himself and ‘everybody else’ standing ‘away from Him’ so that a prayer to a saint is considered as ‘bypassing Jesus’ in favor of the ‘saint alone’.

And that in a nutshell is the problem of much of Protestant theology–ripping God ‘apart’ from His creation in the mistaken notion that this is reality and more ‘pleasing’ to Him. It isn’t.

I agree that your proposition (the “dog” in my analogy) is based on imaginary notions of “what the Apostles must have done”.

Paul makes a clear distinction between Creator and creation in Romans 1:25
Romans 1:25 Douay-Rheims Bible:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen

(please note that I’m simply pointing out Paul’s creature/Creator distinction, and not suggesting that anyone is lying or worshipping creatures)

If Paul makes the distinction wouldn’t that make it part of the Apostolic deposit of faith?

 

[Non_Serviam]

What do you suppose we are doing when we, following the injunction of Scripture, call Mary “ever blessed?” Why, we are praying. Are we thus ‘ignoring God?’ Of course not! God commanded that we call her ever-blessed, didn’t He? So in praying to Mary (because we can’t separate Mary from "ever blessed, can we?), we are not putting her in God’s place, or ignoring Jesus, are we? Didn’t He Himself tell us to call her ever-blessed? Isn’t this prayer, from Scripture itself? Isn’t it to and through Mary because (meaning by, and for) she is the Mother of the Lord? Doesn’t the ultimate aim and focus of the prayer to Mary become Jesus Christ, her son?

One can call someone something without actually speaking to them. In the book of Matthew we read that Simon was called Peter, but that doesn’t mean Matthew was speaking with him-he was speaking about him.

Likewise the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch, but it doesn’t mean they were being spoken to by those doing the calling.

I believe every generation should speak about Mary and her dedication to God and call her blessed. Just as many Catholics say Blessed Virgin Mary when speaking about her. Mary is especially blessed of God. It’s a statement, not a prayer.

 

[David47]

True, that is the topic of the thread. But I don’t really understand what, at this point, you hope to accomplish by bringing it up again. Seems to me that all points of view have been heard from already.

Perhaps you should ask a follow-up question.

I keep bringing it up because things get off topic at times…way off where there are other threads that are open for them…also there are a few new posters that have come in even since you posted - diggingdeeper and nbtb1348 - they may have a different perspective or want to post their answer…and ron77nyc has been posting a bit offering different information and certainly a different perspective…and Good Fella has been popping in now and then, again offering his information and expressing it in his own special way.

As I said way at the beginning…it’s not about just **one or two **posters and what they post or how often they post it…there still may be some one out there that would like to post their view.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Why was the user “David __” posting as Leann a moment ago, and now the post is gone?

 

[Leeann]

True, that is the topic of the thread. But I don’t really understand what, at this point, you hope to accomplish by bringing it up again. Seems to me that all points of view have been heard from already.

Perhaps you should ask a follow-up question.

Just a reminder if it gets too far off topic as it can do at times.

There are **other people **who might like to post besides the the ones that have been - even since you posted this…2 new people have posted - **nbtb1348 and diggingdeeper **- and **ron66nyc has just started posting recently and has offered information and a point of view from a very different perspective **as to that of other Catholic posters…which is worth viewing…and **Good Fella has popped **in more recently with his own way of expressing things…(and he plays a mean harp)…

As I stated at the beginning - it’s not about any one poster, or two that give their answer and viewpoint and that’s it…there may be more that want to express their opinions…

 

[AshleyBelle]

Just a reminder if it gets too far off topic as it can do at times.

There are **other people **who might like to post besides the the ones that have been - even since you posted this…2 new people have posted - **nbtb1348 and diggingdeeper **- and **ron66nyc has just started posting recently and has offered information and a point of view from a very different perspective **as to that of other Catholic posters…which is worth viewing…and **Good Fella has popped **in more recently with his own way of expressing things…(and he plays a mean harp)…

As I stated at the beginning - it’s not about any one poster, or two that give their answer and viewpoint and that’s it…there may be more that want to express their opinions…

This exact reply was here less than 5 minutes ago, posted under the username “David___” (some numbers.) A new user who has less than 20 posts. What’s going on?

 

[Leeann]

Why was the user “David __” posting as Leann a moment ago, and now the post is gone?

AshleyBelle - David is my husband, but we only have “one” computer and he always forgets to “log out” when he’s be on. I just keyed in my post and posted it, but realized it was still in “David’s” name. .

 

[AshleyBelle]

AshleyBelle - David is my husband, but we only have “one” computer and he always forgets to “log out” when he’s be on. I just keyed in my post and posted it, but realized it was still in “David’s” name. .

Ok thanks for clarifying I suspected that might be it, but wanted to ask.