Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Emil3]

I have tried to answer leeann’s ORIGINAL POST & Question; maybe many will not agree with my thoughts/conclusions and that’s what makes a forum a great communicative vehicle. With all due respect, can we have some direct answers to her question? The more that direct answers are avoided, the deeper one sinks into the quicksand.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Not so fast, two things:

1. A number of Catholic prayers to Saints do indeed have an “end” other than intercession. They ask the saint to find a lost item, sell a house, or heal a body part. The prayers are quite clear in the language used and some even clearly state that the Saint himself has the ability to do so of his own volition. Are you willing to declare these prayers to be theologically incorrect and not to be used in order to preserve this proposed entente?
2. Just because the dead saints pray, doesn’t mean that we are to ask them for prayers. The papal conclave makes Popes, but one shouldn’t ask them for this, should one?

While it is tempting to agree, the case for Apostolic sanction of the practice still isn’t made-sorry, MP.

For #1 - if you are uncomfortable with certain Catholic prayers to saints, then just say the ones that clearly ask for intercession. or make up your own. p.s. A knowledgeable Catholic should understand that when asking St. Anthony to help find something is still asking for his intercession, even if there is high-flown poetic language in the prayer card. Or they should take the advice I just gave you.

For #2 - But did not Christ ask that we articulate our prayers? Even though he knew what the blind man wanted, did he not still say, “What do you want me to do for you?” And why should we not apply this when asking for intercession just because there is not an explicit reference to do so? Can we not put 2 and 2 together like the early Church did defining the Trinity? These are all concepts in Scripture. Did not the Jews seek intercession from the heavenly angel in Zechariah 1:11-16? Does not the Psalmist exhort the angels to pray along with him? Why should those now with the angels be off-limits? They are part of the same Body! What evidence do we have of the Apostles denying such concepts in revelation from God? Did not Peter himself speak to Tabitha after her death?

 

[Peter_J]

I have no problem with Intercession and requests for it as we see in the NT and the early Christian writings-the same people that were reading an Epistle were asked to pray for each other and to ask each other for prayer.

It may be poetic-but one can have bad theology in good poetry, and why not take the opportunity to clearly teach what the Apostles taught given the misunderstandings that are evident in the church.

Thank you for seeing some of the distinctions I’m making-it certainly makes it easier to discuss things when the target doesn’t keep shifting.

Non Serviam (and Leeann),

Another thought that may help.

One time I was watching an old movie about Martin Luther. Anyway, at one point (this is before the 95 Theses) a friend tells Luther that the stuff he’s been writing is good, in and of itself, but that the problem is that he’s writing it in German and addressing to the laity – even including it in he sermons. What he ought to do, his friend advises, is write it in Latin and address it to his fellow clergy and scholars. (It was a few years ago that I saw this movie, so I hope I’m not butching the details too badly.)

I think a similar principle could be applied to St. Thomas Aquinas’ equation

asking Mary for prayers = praying to Mary

What I mean is, I think this equation is perfectly good high-level theology; but the problem is that in more recent times, this idea has been “adopted” by the common man (Catholics and Protestants alike) who don’t have a solid grasp of the Summa Theologica. Not surprisingly, trouble follows.

 

[sambos671]

Non Serviam (and Leeann),

Another thought that may help.

One time I was watching an old movie about Martin Luther. Anyway, at one point (this is before the 95 Theses) a friend tells Luther that the stuff he’s been writing is good, in and of itself, but that the problem is that he’s writing it in German and addressing to the laity – even including it in he sermons. What he ought to do, his friend advises, is write it in Latin and address it to his fellow clergy and scholars. (It was a few years ago that I saw this movie, so I hope I’m not butching the details too badly.)

I think a similar principle could be applied to St. Thomas Aquinas’ equation

asking Mary for prayers = praying to Mary

What I mean is, I think this equation is perfectly good high-level theology; but the problem is that in more recent times, this idea has been “adopted” by the common man (Catholics and Protestants alike) who don’t have a solid grasp of the Summa Theologica. Not surprisingly, trouble follows.

Hey I’m laity and what I’ve read of the summa of the summa I liked.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I hope that we aren’t getting people confused into thinking that prayer to Mary or the saints is wrong.

Prayer is simply communication. It is not something that is reserved to ‘God alone’.

 

[Emil3]

“If you will not help us, we do not know whom to turn”
----that is the CRUX of the thread and the original question. It was proposed as if; if the Holy Mother will not help us, we are lost, so-to-speak!–Where is Christ in that picture, etc? How the forum thread goes from that to whether prayers to Saints are justified & a number of cosmological arguements & counter arguements is quite astounding.

Does anybody have any doubt as to whom the apostles would have pointed?—given the specific scenario that was presented?

I state again my position of my first post on the subject earlier today; sometimes sophists & ‘mischief-makers’ are just poised to ‘jump-in’ and create confusion & havock. For that reason alone, besides others, the Church must be vigilant when it would seem to the uninitiated, uninformed, or sophist that we place Mary as equal to Christ, or,–as in this scenario–the highest Holy Being ‘of last resort’! I will also state again that the 'Co-Redeemer//Co-Mediatrix crowd wants that ‘TYPE’ of equality and I pray that that view will be 'downplayed by the current Pope. What a field-day the enemies of our Church will have with that if it is ever made DOGMA. I state with all sincerity…GOD FORBID!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Does anybody have any doubt as to whom the apostles would have pointed?—given the specific scenario that was presented?

The apostles would have also pointed out that the OP’s question is a false dichotomy, as some of us are demonstrating here.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, and interesting as it is to see and hear from people, to me it would seem so much better and indeed more purposeful to have the discussion be about something that is an actual question or concept.

This false dilemma (which seems to imply that Catholics use Jesus and Mary ‘interchangeably’ as godlike beings with, if anything, more power attributed to Mary) is based on a total misunderstanding of Christian teachings over 2000 years. Unfortunately, until that misunderstanding is cleared up, people are just going to ‘talk past each other’.

I don’t know how much more clearly I can state that Catholics (of whom I am one) do not, never have, and never will equate Mary with God.

That we do not pray to Mary "in place of " God.

But if a person is somehow convinced that I’m either lying or mistaken, and that we ‘do’ treat Mary ‘improperly’, then only the Holy Spirit can guide them from their mistaken premise. All we Catholics can do is keep on telling the Truth and hope that somehow the truth will set these dearly loved, but sadly mistaken, souls free.

 

[pr35120]

i look at the whole picture.and i start thinking why dont we go back to the original founder, what did he think, what did he believe.thats what we should go by.sometimes we forget, what happens over a long period of time.sometimes when people have to much power , they start adding things.lets be true to ourselves. you think god wants us to pray to all these other things.we can appreciate these things for what they did. but to pray to them and hold them in almost in the same light.lets ask ourselves,what would peter do. and take it from there.lets go by ,what he wrote and what he believed.research that and we know where we should be. i know im going to hear a lot of stuff.but,lets take a step back and think about it.before the bashing begins.are we afraid of change.are we stuck in the past.are we afraid of it.are we scared to say that we’re wrong.are we scared to speak up.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

With due respect, once we start getting in to “what would the original founder do”, if we immediately hedge it with, “well, he certainly wouldn’t do THIS, THIS is obviously stuff that got added on and now people are too proud to admit’. . .then we’re not really interested in 'what would Jesus do”, we’re interested in denying one group’s beliefs (Catholics) and trying to do so by inserting another group’s beliefs (Protestant) into a man-made idol we’ll call ‘Jesus’ and then saying, “See? JESUS would do it our Protestant way. That’s what HE’D do. And we KNOW He’d do it that way because that’s what WE do. And we know He won’t do it the Catholic way because that’s what THEY do.”

It’s easy to accuse people in a nebulous and broad-based manner, without offering documentation. If Catholics “added on” Mary worship, where is the documentation? Where is the corresponding documentation of the ‘remnant of true believers’ protesting this ‘addition’? Support of the Catholic teaching on Mary goes back to the 2nd century (it predates the canon of Scripture)–so how come there is no ‘evidence’ of this’ being added on in the 14 centuries between? There are literally dozens of examples of heresies such as Nestorianism, Pelagianism, etc. which were vigorously dealt with by the Christian Church–a united Christian church at that, the SAME Christian Church we trust enough that we accept its identification of what works were Scripture. So why, 14 centuries on, did some (not all) Protestants --most remarkably, not even the FIRST Protestants like Martin Luther–suddenly start screeching about “marian add ons?”

 

[Emil3]

The apostles would have also pointed out that the OP’s question is a false dichotomy, as some of us are demonstrating here.

A “…'FALSE DICHOTOMY”…???
DEAR FRIEND: Please know the meaning of the words which you employ. There is no false dichotomy other than the one which you are illogically trying to espouse. I notice how nobody addresses the ‘CO-Redeemer’ issue; a proper example of the dangers of THE ORIGINAL QUESTION!

If you & others wish to sail past points which can be reasonably & easily argued --and answered–with answers based on false premises and long diatribes about what real Catholics know; you miss the central point! Alot of Catholics DO NOT KNOW & it is unkind of you to expect them to exercise the same degree of logic & certitude & knowledge which you seem to hold. What about the Orthodox? How do you think they react to the 'LACK 'of a simple answer?–and the Protestants–PLEASE!?

I do not mean to offend; I am sure your heart is in the rioght place, but for goodness sake–STICK TO THE QUESTION–and stop ‘jibberjabbing’!

 

[pr35120]

With due respect, once we start getting in to “what would the original founder do”, if we immediately hedge it with, “well, he certainly wouldn’t do THIS, THIS is obviously stuff that got added on and now people are too proud to admit’. . .then we’re not really interested in 'what would Jesus do”, we’re interested in denying one group’s beliefs (Catholics) and trying to do so by inserting another group’s beliefs (Protestant) into a man-made idol we’ll call ‘Jesus’ and then saying, “See? JESUS would do it our Protestant way. That’s what HE’D do. And we KNOW He’d do it that way because that’s what WE do. And we know He won’t do it the Catholic way because that’s what THEY do.”

It’s easy to accuse people in a nebulous and broad-based manner, without offering documentation. If Catholics “added on” Mary worship, where is the documentation? Where is the corresponding documentation of the ‘remnant of true believers’ protesting this ‘addition’? Support of the Catholic teaching on Mary goes back to the 2nd century (it predates the canon of Scripture)–so how come there is no ‘evidence’ of this’ being added on in the 14 centuries between? There are literally dozens of examples of heresies such as Nestorianism, Pelagianism, etc. which were vigorously dealt with by the Christian Church–a united Christian church at that, the SAME Christian Church we trust enough that we accept its identification of what works were Scripture. So why, 14 centuries on, did some (not all) Protestants --most remarkably, not even the FIRST Protestants like Martin Luther–suddenly start screeching about “marian add ons?”

well you know,you got some good points.now lets look at christians(protestant), at one time,i thought well they seem like something i maybe would consider joining.then here we go, why do you guys have so many branches of christianity.i dont know if its because i live in the south but in other states they dont have all these different churches.sometimes it just ,not right

 

[pr35120]

With due respect, once we start getting in to “what would the original founder do”, if we immediately hedge it with, “well, he certainly wouldn’t do THIS, THIS is obviously stuff that got added on and now people are too proud to admit’. . .then we’re not really interested in 'what would Jesus do”, we’re interested in denying one group’s beliefs (Catholics) and trying to do so by inserting another group’s beliefs (Protestant) into a man-made idol we’ll call ‘Jesus’ and then saying, “See? JESUS would do it our Protestant way. That’s what HE’D do. And we KNOW He’d do it that way because that’s what WE do. And we know He won’t do it the Catholic way because that’s what THEY do.”

It’s easy to accuse people in a nebulous and broad-based manner, without offering documentation. If Catholics “added on” Mary worship, where is the documentation? Where is the corresponding documentation of the ‘remnant of true believers’ protesting this ‘addition’? Support of the Catholic teaching on Mary goes back to the 2nd century (it predates the canon of Scripture)–so how come there is no ‘evidence’ of this’ being added on in the 14 centuries between? There are literally dozens of examples of heresies such as Nestorianism, Pelagianism, etc. which were vigorously dealt with by the Christian Church–a united Christian church at that, the SAME Christian Church we trust enough that we accept its identification of what works were Scripture. So why, 14 centuries on, did some (not all) Protestants --most remarkably, not even the FIRST Protestants like Martin Luther–suddenly start screeching about “marian add ons?”

well did peter acknowledge mary in the way we do now and says to ?i understand when it comes to other things.and with all do respect,do we know how peter ran things in his day

 

[Leeann]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post and for the efforts of trying to keep on track.

Refresher of the topic of thread:

---

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”
Question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

 

[rinnie]

As Catholics we all know that God is above all. The Blessed Mother is also a great asset and gift to us from God to the Church. IT just seems that there is so much about her people refuse to believe. I often ask myself why. It still makes no sense to me.

I guess if they can somehow prove that we put her about God they somehow can overthrow the Church? We say time after time NO ONE COMES BEFORE THE LORD OUR GOD. But it just does not sink in.

If we as Catholic’s believed that she had more power then God why would we deny it then. I mean come on. We love Mary and we believe her prayers are what saves us. If that is breaking a commandment I would love to know how? Why do these People think that when we ask Mary to Pray for us is such a horrible thing. DO they not think that Mary is in heaven with Jesus Christ and goes directly to him? Where do they think Mary is? I

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, you have to be careful. I mean, if you’re saying, “Do we know how Peter taught/ran things”, it works both ways. If we truly ‘don’t’ know, then it is just as likely that he did, indeed, speak of Mary then just as Catholics have been for the last 2000 years. In fact, it’s more likely that he did because as I said, Catholics have documents from the 2nd century AD (that is within 100 years or so from the time of the apostles) and those documents support Mary being addressed and considered in this way. (The prayer’s Latin title is I believe the “Sub Tuum”)

 

[rinnie]

And why cant they understand that what the Pope is saying that if we are in great sin, and we cannot go to Mary to pray for us (because we know her great love for us) whom do we go?

Does it not all go back to job. God tells jobs friends to pray for them, because if we are in great sin we go to the righteous to pray for us? Because if we are not righteous does God not say he will not listen to our prayers?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

From the very same article, just a bit farther down, we have:

“This city, which he re-founded is thus a historical demonstration of how God transforms the world: filling man’s heart with charity.”

“Here in Pompeii,” the Pope continued, "it is understood that love for God and love for neighbor are inseparable.

“Here at Mary’s feet, families rediscover or reinforce the joy of love that keeps them united.”

The secret of Pompeii, the Holy Father revealed, is the rosary: "This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus."

“The rosary is a contemplative prayer that is accessible to all: great and small, lay people and clerics, cultured and uncultured,” he said. “The rosary is a spiritual weapon in the struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world.”

Now, in light of the original thread topic, here we have the Pope himself giving the answer to the false dichotomy. . .um, I mean the ‘question.’

Look at how the Pope is speaking of God here. God’s transformation of the world (Not “mary’s transformation”). Love for God and man. And finally, what is the reason for the Holy Father’s visit to Pompeii and for the words he speaks in echoing the prayer of a priest 150 years ago?

Why, he says the secret is the rosary–prayer, a defense in the struggle against evil and violence, a tool for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world.

And what is the mail point of the rosary? That it is prayer, and a most specific prayer at that --as it has been.

The prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus.

I repeat: Through Mary to Jesus. Not "through Jesus to Mary’. Through MARY to JESUS.

I can’t emphasize it enough. The whole basis for the Pope’s prayer to Mary was the same as the basis for any prayer to Mary: Because it is through Mary to Jesus. All prayer to Mary has Jesus as its ultimate aim and end.

So of course there is no ‘competition’ and no dilemma. The apostles would point through Mary to Jesus. . .just as St. Luke did in his gospel. Just as the Angel Gabriel did in the first Angelic Salutation. Just as God the Father did in sending Jesus to us. Through Mary to Jesus.

No ‘dichotomy’. No ‘either-or’. Always, forever. . .

THROUGH MARY TO JESUS.

 

[Emil3]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post and for the efforts of trying to keep on track.

Refresher of the topic of thread:

---

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

Dear Leeann:

I know that I will feel some ‘backlash’–or maybe not, since people love to answer questions not asked of them but prefer to follow their own agenda. You may repost your question untill Christ Himself arrives for the 2nd coming; I dare say you will not get salient–to the point -direct answers! YES WE UNDERSTAND THE WONDERFUL TRADITION TO OUR HOLY MOTHER–but nobody wishes to address the inherent dangers of others not understanding when we take ‘leaps’ as is inherent in the question you pose. God bless you & all who have posted but there is no more of a fruitless task than to debate with others who answer their own question rather than address the one that has been proposed.

God Bless the Roman Catholic Church & all who are united with it!

 

[ferdie]

From the very same article, just a bit farther down, we have:

Now, in light of the original thread topic, here we have the Pope himself giving the answer to the false dichotomy. . .um, I mean the ‘question.’

Look at how the Pope is speaking of God here. God’s transformation of the world (Not “mary’s transformation”). Love for God and man. And finally, what is the reason for the Holy Father’s visit to Pompeii and for the words he speaks in echoing the prayer of a priest 150 years ago?

Why, he says the secret is the rosary–prayer, a defense in the struggle against evil and violence, a tool for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world.

And what is the mail point of the rosary? That it is prayer, and a most specific prayer at that --as it has been.

The prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus.

I repeat: Through Mary to Jesus. Not "through Jesus to Mary’. Through MARY to JESUS.

I can’t emphasize it enough. The whole basis for the Pope’s prayer to Mary was the same as the basis for any prayer to Mary: Because it is through Mary to Jesus. All prayer to Mary has Jesus as its ultimate aim and end.

So of course there is no ‘competition’ and no dilemma. The apostles would point through Mary to Jesus. . .just as St. Luke did in his gospel. Just as the Angel Gabriel did in the first Angelic Salutation. Just as God the Father did in sending Jesus to us. Through Mary to Jesus.

No ‘dichotomy’. No ‘either-or’. Always, forever. . .

THROUGH MARY TO JESUS.