Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

They would point towards Christ, and in doing so, Mary would be standing there with Him, her arms outstretched to direct us to our loving savior, as her own dear little children

Thank you AshleyBelle for getting back on topic!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So LeeAnn, does that mean that you (finally) understand that in praying to Mary or any other saint, they are ‘right there with Christ’ who is the ultimate object and focus of any prayer to a saint? They aren’t standing ‘apart’ from Him as a 'different focus?" And that thus the apostles would be pointing, as I said long ago, to “Mary in Christ” or “Christ in Mary”, the main point being that there is no ‘either/or’, no “If you pray to Mary, you’re NOT praying to JESUS so you’re ignoring Him etc.?”

That would be wonderful if you do finally understand so that you can say,

“Ah, yes. The Pope directed his prayer to Jesus through communication of prayer in asking the Blessed Mother to join with him in approaching her Son, the ultimate focus of any prayer.”

 

[Good_Fella]

That’s easy. Christ is the only true hope. The Church cannot glory in anything but it’s Lord.

The Church glorifies God and honours the Saints who are reflections of God’s glory, for they have been sanctified by the grace of God whose image they have perfectly conformed to for the glory of God and thereby have a share in God’s glory. The Church does indeed glory in no other person than our Lord. Yet it is our Lord who glories in us: we who perfectly conform to his will and likeness so that we are glorified by him, having glorified God with our lives to be worthy of salvation.

To this end, we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and powerfully bring to fulfillment every good purpose and every effort of faith, that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, in accord with the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1, 11-12

“And by her He has been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God both destroys the serpent and those angels and men like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.”
Justin Martyr (A.D. 155)

“And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.”
Irenaeus (A.D. 180)

“For she who brought forth the source of all mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all.”
Paul the Deacon (ante A.D.799)

But we ought to give thanks to God for you always, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth.To this end he has also called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2, 13-14

“And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in chastity, And Mary among women; for it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity.”
Origen (A.D. 244)

“You are she who, it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.”
*Germanus of Constantinople (ante A.D. 733) *

“O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honorable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us. Lead us in peace and having brought us without shame to the throne of judgment, grant us a place at the right hand of your Son.”
Basil of Seleucia (ante A.D. 446)

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.
Romans 8, 16-17

“Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground.”
*Gregory of Nazianzen (A.D. 379) *

“Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God.”
Theoteknos of Livias (ante A.D. 560)

For those he foreknew he also predestined to be ‘conformed to the image’ of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.
*Romans 8, 29-30 *

“Therefore you are to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Matthew 5, 48

" ‘There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a flower shall grow out of his roots.’ The rod is the mother of the Lord – simple, pure, unsullied; drawing no germ of life from without but fruitful in singleness like God himself…Set before you the blessed Mary, whose surpassing purity made her meet to be the mother of our Lord."
Jerome (A.D. 384)

PAX :harp:

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
[SIGN]**So…TO WHOM WOULD THE APOSTLES POINT THE POPE TOO…MARY …OR …JESUS??? **[/SIGN]

That’s easy. Christ is the only true hope. The Church cannot glory in anything but it’s Lord.

Thank you ron77nyc!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Who would the apostles point to?

Why, that is easy. They would say,

"LeeAnn, why are you kicking against the goad, girl?

If the Pope is praying to Mary, he isn’t IGNORING Jesus or not praying to Jesus, because in prayer (which is communication, not worship) to Mary, he is asking Mary to join him in the ultimate focus of communication (which is prayer) TO Jesus.

So, LeeAnn, as apostles we’re going to ‘point the Pope’ exactly where he is already looking–because the Pope is looking at the totality of Jesus in praying in communion with the saints, who are members of the Body of Christ. He isn’t trying to falsely separate Jesus from His Church or insisting that 'prayer equals worship and thus is ‘for God alone’. So, LeeAnn, stop beating that dead horse and raising those false dichotomies. The Pope has it RIGHT (apostolically, which is to say Scripturally, Traditionally, and Magisterially speaking) and you have it WRONG. Start worshipping God fully by understanding His communion of Saints so that you can worship like the apostles, too".

 

[Leeann]

Thank you Tantum for your response and (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[Good_Fella]

Who would the apostles point to?

Why, that is easy. They would say,

"LeeAnn, why are you kicking against the goad, girl?

If the Pope is praying to Mary, he isn’t IGNORING Jesus or not praying to Jesus, because in prayer (which is communication, not worship) to Mary, he is asking Mary to join him in the ultimate focus of communication (which is prayer) TO Jesus.

So, LeeAnn, as apostles we’re going to ‘point the Pope’ exactly where he is already looking–because the Pope is looking at the totality of Jesus in praying in communion with the saints, who are members of the Body of Christ. He isn’t trying to falsely separate Jesus from His Church or insisting that 'prayer equals worship and thus is ‘for God alone’. So, LeeAnn, stop beating that dead horse and raising those false dichotomies. The Pope has it RIGHT (apostolically, which is to say Scripturally, Traditionally, and Magisterially speaking) and you have it WRONG. Start worshipping God fully by understanding His communion of Saints so that you can worship like the apostles, too".

Yes, thanks.

Let’s look at this question from another perspective. A man is in his garage repairing a car which he gave to his son on his last birthday, which he is able to fix by himself without any assistance from a professional mechanic. But he sees his daughter standing nearby anxious and willing to help him. Knowing that he doesn’t depend on her help to get the job done, he nevertheless says to her, “Honey, will you pass me that wrench?” And he goes so far as to grant her the honour of applying it with the guidance of his hand. The girl’s father could have ignored her by getting the wrench out of the tool box and using it by himself, but in his love for her he just doesn’t have the heart to deny her the dignity of working together with him to get the job done, knowing that she loves him and is eager to please him in restoring the car to perfect condition. Without that wrench in his hand the car has no chance of ever being fixed by the girl’s father. Through the mediation of the daughter, a privilege granted by the father, the car is rescued. The girl dispenses and collaboratively applies the tool that is sufficient for the car’s restoration to health in the able hands of her father. Thus the tool that is required is first placed in the custody of the daughter by the father so that he will get the job done with her assistance. For the girl’s father is unhappy with the thought of leaving his daughter on the side lines and denying her the dignity of working together with him in mutual love, seeing that she is his daughter and that she loves him as much as he loves her. After all, the car does belong to her brother whom she loves just as much and doesn’t want to see lose that car. The girl’s friends must have praised her after they heard that she helped her father fix her brother’s car.

Then Uzziah said to her: “Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the chief of our enemies. Your deed of hope will never be forgotten by those who tell of the might of God. May God make this redound to your everlasting honor, rewarding you with blessings, because you risked your life when your people were being oppressed, and you averted our disaster, walking uprightly before our God.” And all the people answered, “Amen! Amen!”
Judith 13, 18-20

“My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of my Father’s hand.”
John 10, 29

Allow me to rephrase the question: Who would the Prophets point the Israelites to, God or Judith?

PAX :harp:

 

[Leeann]

Good Fella

“And by her He has been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God both destroys the serpent and those angels and men like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.”
Justin Martyr (A.D. 155)

“And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.”
Irenaeus (A.D. 180)

“For she who brought forth the source of all mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all.”
Paul the Deacon (ante A.D.799)

“And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in chastity, And Mary among women; for it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity.”
Origen (A.D. 244)

“You are she who, it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.”
Germanus of Constantinople (ante A.D. 733)

“O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honorable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us. Lead us in peace and having brought us without shame to the throne of judgment, grant us a place at the right hand of your Son.”
Basil of Seleucia (ante A.D. 446)

“Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground.”
Gregory of Nazianzen (A.D. 379)

“Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God.”
Theoteknos of Livias (ante A.D. 560)

In your previous post, #543, you lumped in the above quotes with actual scripture verses, as if trying to impress that these quotes somehow hold the same truth as the Holy Spirit inspired scripture verses do……while in reality, they only show how far some of the early believers had deviated from what was originally taught and preached by the Apostles.

But thank you for bringing these quotes to light……it helps in understanding how over the centuries the Catholic Church has developed its teachings and why now the Pope would be turning to Mary in supplication, as opposed to going to/through Jesus in prayer.

Good Fella

" ‘There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a flower shall grow out of his roots.’ The rod is the mother of the Lord – simple, pure, unsullied; drawing no germ of life from without but fruitful in singleness like God himself…Set before you the blessed Mary, whose surpassing purity made her meet to be the mother of our Lord."
Jerome (A.D. 384)

Interesting viewpoint of this “one verse” of Isaiah Chapter 11.

The “rod” being referred to as the mother of the Lord………

 

[Leeann]

Good Fella

Let’s look at this question from another perspective. A man is in his garage repairing a car which he gave to his son on his last birthday, which he is able to fix by himself without any assistance from a professional mechanic. But he sees his daughter standing nearby anxious and willing to help him. Knowing that he doesn’t depend on her help to get the job done, he nevertheless says to her, “Honey, will you pass me that wrench?” And he goes so far as to grant her the honour of applying it with the guidance of his hand. The girl’s father could have ignored her by getting the wrench out of the tool box and using it by himself, but in his love for her he just doesn’t have the heart to deny her the dignity of working together with him to get the job done,knowing that she loves him and is eager to please him in restoring the car to perfect condition. Without that wrench in his hand the car has no chance of ever being fixed by the girl’s father. Through the mediation of the daughter, a privilege granted by the father, the car is rescued. The girl dispenses and collaboratively applies the tool that is sufficient for the car’s restoration to health in the able hands of her father. Thus the tool that is required is first placed in the custody of the daughter by the father so that he will get the job done with her assistance. For the girl’s father is unhappy with the thought of leaving his daughter on the side lines and denying her the dignity of working together with him in mutual love, seeing that she is his daughter and that she loves him as much as he loves her. After all, the car does belong to her brother whom she loves just as much and doesn’t want to see lose that car. **The girl’s friends must have praised her after they heard that she helped her father fix her brother’s car. **(…but do you think that her friends would then begin to go to “her” whenever their cars broke down???)

I believe that the above “story” can relate to what every true and faithful believer’s relationship is like in regards to God the Father.

Good Fella
Then Uzziah said to her: “Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the chief of our enemies. Your deed of hope will never be forgotten by those who tell of the might of God. May God make this redound to your everlasting honor, rewarding you with blessings, because you risked your life when your people were being oppressed, and you averted our disaster, walking uprightly before our God.” And all the people answered, “Amen! Amen!”
Judith 13, 18-20

“My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of my Father’s hand.”
John 10, 29

Allow me to rephrase the question: Who would the Prophets point the Israelites to, God or Judith?

Your question would be a good topic for another thread perhaps, as it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this one.

 

[guanophore]

In your previous post, #543, you lumped in the above quotes with actual scripture verses, as if trying to impress that these quotes somehow hold the same truth as the Holy Spirit inspired scripture verses do……while in reality, they only show how far some of the early believers had deviated from what was originally taught and preached by the Apostles.

But thank you for bringing these quotes to light……it helps in understanding how over the centuries the Catholic Church has developed its teachings and why now the Pope would be turning to Mary in supplication, as opposed to going to/through Jesus in prayer.

I suppose we all read with our preconceived notions. These were yours, and will probably continue to be yours when you leave CAF. It is too bad that you did not come here to learn what we really believe, and only to confirm your own twisted understanding of the Cathlic faith. The Pope, along with any other faithful Catholic, will never ask anyone in the communion of saints 'as opposed to going to/through Jesus in prayer". Such a statement shows that you not only misunderstand our devotion to Mary, but also the entire thrust of the Apostolic prayer life preserved in the Catholic Church.

 

[Thing]

From Acts of the Apostles;

14 And the multitude of men and women who believed in the Lord, was more increased: 15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that when Peter came, his shadow at the least, might overshadow any of them, and they might be delivered from their infirmities.

Why did the people not just pray to Jesus and be cured from their infirmities, why did they go through St. Peter when they wanted to be cured. Did their faith and prayer to St. Peter have its effect, were they cured? Yes.

 

[Good_Fella]

In your previous post, #543, you lumped in the above quotes with actual scripture verses, as if trying to impress that these quotes somehow hold the same truth as the Holy Spirit inspired scripture verses do……while in reality, they only show how far some of the early believers had deviated from what was originally taught and preached by the Apostles.

Scripture comes from Tradition. Their order isn’t inverse. Scripture is infallible because Tradition is infallible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Please reflect on John 16: 12-13. Jesus is addressing his apostles, not general believers who presume to have been enlightened in the fullness of divine truth, keeping in mind those who will ‘validly’ succeed them in generations to come until the end of this age.

Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us (Sacred Tradition), just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us (Oral Tradition), I, too, have decided, after investigating everything anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence (Sacred Scripture) for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may realize with certainty of the teachings you have received.
*Luke 1, 1-4 *

Sacred Scripture must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition by the Apostolic teaching authority of the Catholic Church. The Church Fathers I quoted succeeded the Apostles and taught with the Apostolic authority invested in them by Christ through the Holy Spirit. They served to articulate the teachings of the Apostles and what some of them had implicitly put down in writing. Outside the Church and far removed in time nobody is in a viable position to presume what the apostles had actually preached and what the faithful believed. Moreover, you are mistaken in classifying the ECFs as general early believers. And keep in mind that heretics like Bishop Nestorious, who presumed that they understood the Scriptures independently, had deviated from orthodox doctrines and were condemned by Popes and Ecumenical Councils.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.
Ephesians 2, 20

The Church has not been built through the centuries on the teachings of the apostles alone, for they serve as a ‘foundation’ that supports and gives rise to the structure of the one universal Church. The Apostolic teaching authority of the Church did not expire with the death of the last apostle.

Paul acknowledged his ministry as a divine office. Any office, including that of the president of the United States, has valid successors who continue to erect what has begun.

…of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God…
Colossians 1, 25

This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task.
1 Timothy 3, 1

*Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the ‘imposition of hands’ of the presbyterate. Be diligent in these matters, be absorbed in them, so that your progress may be evident to everyone. Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you. *
*1 Timothy 4, 14-16 *

*And what you ‘heard’ from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. *
2 Timothy 2, 2

Be self-possessed in all circumstances; put up with hardship; perform the work of an evangelist; fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2 Timothy 4, 5-6

…“Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, …they appointed those ministers already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…”
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 96)

“…As the human race was subjected to death by a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V: 19, 1 (A.D. 180)

Mary said, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.”
Luke 1, 38

To be continued…

PAX :harp:

 

[Good_Fella]

Interesting viewpoint of this “one verse” of Isaiah Chapter 11.

The “rod” being referred to as the mother of the Lord………

" ’ There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a flower shall grow out of his roots.’ The rod is the mother of the Lord – simple, pure, unsullied; drawing no germ of life from without but fruitful in singleness like God himself…Set before you the blessed Mary, whose surpassing purity made her meet to be the mother of our Lord."
St. Jerome (A.D. 384)

Have no fear, Leeann. Jerome was familiar with Isaiah as he was with all the prophets and the apostles. He translated the Bible from the Greek into the Latin. Please reflect on the following citations and quotes. There’s really no point in trying to explain anything to you, since you obviously joined this forum to contest the Catholic faith with deaf ears.

The revelation of your words sheds light, gives understanding to the simple.
Psalm 119, 130

“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Luke 1, 45

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God.”
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D.150)

Speaking of the Annunciation, the Blessed Virgin Mary said to St. Elizabeth of Schoenau:

“Do you know why God did this? Because I had believed in Him and because I had humbled myself.”

Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure.
1 John 3, 2-3

And coming to her he said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1, 28

“And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in chastity, and Mary among women; for were it not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity.”
Origen, Commentary on Matthew, 10:17 (A.D. 244)

Speaking of the Purification, the Blessed Virgin Mary said to St. Bridget of Sweden:

“I did not need purification, like other women, because my Son who was born of me, made me clean.”

“So be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Matthew 5, 48

“Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.”
Luke 11, 28

“Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul’s affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary…For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints (so Pope Benedict meant) benefit by her favor those who received deliverance (now that Jesus has redeemed the world).”
Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin (ante A.D. 778)

PAX :harp:

 

[prodigal-sun]

I suppose we all read with our preconceived notions. These were yours, and will probably continue to be yours when you leave CAF. It is too bad that you did not come here to learn what we really believe, and only to confirm your own twisted understanding of the Cathlic faith. The Pope, along with any other faithful Catholic, will never ask anyone in the communion of saints 'as opposed to going to/through Jesus in prayer". Such a statement shows that you not only **misunderstand **our devotion to Mary, but also the entire thrust of the Apostolic prayer life preserved in the Catholic Church.

I don’t think Leeann misunderstands our devotions, how can she, they are all explained very nicely in this thread and anyone reading through it will have a great understanding of what the communion of the saints is. Leeann simply chooses not to believe the truth. She remains blinded by her self rightouness making herself as the pope along with the indivduals that taught her. Her pride gets in the way of truth because if she allowed the truth to unveil her blindness she would have to say yes to the one true holy apostolic universal Church.

Even though Leeann will not let this twisted view go there will be many more that are reading this thread who’s eyes and hearts will be opened. So to that Leeann we should thank you! We should also thank the true wisdom and charity that many of our Catholic brothers & sisters have shown on this thread.

God Bless!

 

[ron77nyc]

Even though Leeann will not let this twisted view go there will be many more that are reading this thread who’s eyes and hearts will be opened. So to that Leeann we should thank you! We should also thank the true wisdom and charity that many of our Catholic brothers & sisters have shown on this thread.

God Bless!

I posted this last month. Post #1038. It is recommended reading by the Catholic Church.

motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=962&Itemid=83
Mary Is Our Advocate, Able to Save All
By St. Alphonsus de Liguori

And therefore, says Saint Peter Damian, the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven and on earth. She is able to raise even those who are in despair to confidence, and he addresses her in these words: “All power is given to you in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to you, who can raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.” (7) And then he adds that “when the Mother goes to seek a favor for us from Jesus Christ” (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), “her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.” (8) Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother, who honored Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “You are the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God you need no other recommendation; for you are the Mother of true life.” (9)
“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: “Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) “Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son.” (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, “God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” (14)Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent;

Do you think this is OK? If this is true then we should be worshiping Mary.

 

[Good_Fella]

I believe that the above “story” can relate to what every true and faithful believer’s relationship is like in regards to God the Father.

:
Mary’s association with God is highly unique in the order of grace. Among all the faithful she holds a pre-eminent position with God. The words of her cousin Elizabeth do not apply to general believers but reflect the devotion the first believers in Palestine offered our Blessed Mother. For nobody but Mary freely consented to bring us the Saviour by her humble “faith working through love” in cooperation with the Holy Spirit. The faithful in the church at Jerusalem praised and honoured Mary and blessed her name on account of her Divine Maternity and vital contribution to our salvation in and through Christ.

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Luke 1, 45

“Behold, from now all generations will call me blessed.”
Luke 1, 48

“The Virgin received Salvation so that she may give it back to the centuries.”
Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (ante A.D. 450)

Your question would be a good topic for another thread perhaps, as it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this one.

My question rephrases the senseless question you keep asking, although it’s been shown how you have taken the Pope’s prayer out of context in keeping with your deficient understanding of the Scriptures. You fail to see how God desires that human beings play a key role together with him in his plan of salvation. Human participation and cooperation are essential in God’s initiative to redeem the world. He does not wish to work alone on our behalf. We are expected to make a vital contribution in undoing what Adam and Eve incurred. In the order of grace, Mary’s ‘Fiat’ immeasurably made the greatest human contribution to our salvation. It served to save God’s people from their sins making whatever is expected of general believers to contribute to their salvation possible. The Church praises and honours Mary for her saving faithfulness and love just as the ancient Jews acknowledged Judith’s vital collaboration with God. There is no question of either of the two women competitively coming between God and his chosen people when invoking their help through God’s grace for they act in association with God, not on their own initiative and authority.

“But now, God-fearing woman that you are, pray for us that the Lord may send rain to fill up our cisterns, lest we be weakend still further.” Then Judith said to them, “Listen to me! I will do something that will go down from generation to generation among the descendants of our race.”
Judith 8, 31-32

“You scatter your favours with still greater abundance since you possess more fully him who is their source and is entirely willing to give them to us, rather you possess almost everything by yourself (as a steward of God’s grace) and you show largesse to whom you will and to him who begs it of you.”
John the Geometer, Life of Mary (A.D. 989)

PAX :harp:

 

[guanophore]

I posted this last month. Post #1038. It is recommended reading by the Catholic Church.

Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother, who honored Him so much during her life,

Do you not agree with this?

This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “You are the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God you need no other recommendation; for you are the Mother of true life.”

Do you not agree that she is the mother of God?

And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: “Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.”

Do you not agree? Don’t you believe what is written, that greater things than H does will we do?

Do you think this is OK? If this is true then we should be worshiping Mary.

i think it is ok for Jesus do do whatever His eternal love desires to do for His mother.

But no, we should not be worshipping Mary. She is a creature, and that would be idolatry.

 

[ron77nyc]

Do you not agree with this?

Do you not agree that she is the mother of God?

Do you not agree? Don’t you believe what is written, that greater things than H does will we do?

i think it is ok for Jesus do do whatever His eternal love desires to do for His mother.

But no, we should not be worshipping Mary. She is a creature, and that would be idolatry.

I agree with you on all the above but not on all the following.

“Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son.” (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, “God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” (14)Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent.

This is the creation of a female deity.

 

[Thing]

This is the creation of a female deity.

My fingers are independant of my hands… ah, no… just kidding.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I posted this last month. Post #1038. It is recommended reading by the Catholic Church.

motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=962&Itemid=83
Mary Is Our Advocate, Able to Save All
By St. Alphonsus de Liguori

And therefore, says Saint Peter Damian, the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven and on earth. She is able to raise even those who are in despair to confidence, and he addresses her in these words: “All power is given to you in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to you, who can raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.” (7) And then he adds that “when the Mother goes to seek a favor for us from Jesus Christ” (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), “her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.” (8) Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother, who honored Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “You are the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God you need no other recommendation; for you are the Mother of true life.” (9)
“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: “Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) “Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son.” (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, “God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” (14)Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent;

Do you think this is OK? If this is true then we should be worshiping Mary.

Umm, Ron, do we worship Jesus because He is omnipotent? No. . .we worship Jesus because He is God, He is our Savior.

God could–if He chose–give to any and all of us Divine power, even equivalent to His own–would this power then somehow magically make US 'creators"? No, it would make us creatures who happened to possess, through the grace of GOD who would have given it to is, Divine power.

As we know, many saints in history have been able (through the gift of God) to utilize Divine power to perform miracles. We don’t worship the saints for the power (which after all originated with God and is only given through God), we HONOR the saints for their goodness and humility and obedience, because THOSE are the qualities which God approved and because of which He graciously permitted the exercise of that power by those saints.

Same with Mary. Her goodness, humility and obedience are such that God has been pleased to give her His Divine Power as a free gift. We honor her for those virtues but she isn’t a deity and she would not be one even if she stands in heaven with all graces (which come from God) flowing through her.

It seems that a lot of people are really jealous of Mary (they seem to think that as a human being she was ‘no great shakes’) and her relationship with God, and can’t stand to think that she–or indeed any ‘human’–should be treated as ‘more important’ than any other human, as though there is no difference between somebody who sleepwalks through Christianity and someone ‘on fire’, because "if they confess with the mouth they’re saved and all are equal’.

Very much a contemporary "I’m OK, you’re OK’ sort of philosophy, that attempts to weed out both the really ‘high’ and the really ‘low’ and espouse some false ‘equality’ in every facet of life.