Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[ron77nyc]

Umm, Ron, do we worship Jesus because He is omnipotent? No. . .we worship Jesus because He is God, He is our Savior.

It seems that a lot of people are really jealous of Mary (they seem to think that as a human being she was ‘no great shakes’) and her relationship with God, and can’t stand to think that she–or indeed any ‘human’–should be treated as ‘more important’ than any other human, as though there is no difference between somebody who sleepwalks through Christianity and someone ‘on fire’, because "if they confess with the mouth they’re saved and all are equal’.

Very much a contemporary "I’m OK, you’re OK’ sort of philosophy, that attempts to weed out both the really ‘high’ and the really ‘low’ and espouse some false ‘equality’ in every facet of life.

If Catholicism was the religion the whole world acknolwledged as the only religion and there were no Protestants, Muslims or Jews this would still be false doctrine. It has nothing to do with disrespect or jealousy. Also no disrespect intended for you.

**“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” **Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: “Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) “Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son.” (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, **“God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” **(14)Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent;

 

[Rocky]

If Catholicism was the religion the whole world acknolwledged as the only religion and there were no Protestants, Muslims or Jews this would still be false doctrine. It has nothing to do with disrespect or jealousy. Also no disrespect intended for you.

**“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” **Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: “Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) “Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son.” (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, **“God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” **(14)Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent;

And what is it that Mary says that you must obey? *"*His mother instructed…’*Do whatever he [Jesus] tells you.’" *(John 2:5)

 

[ron77nyc]

And what is it that Mary says that you must obey? *"*His mother instructed…’*Do whatever he [Jesus] tells you.’" *(John 2:5)

I don’t see the connection.

 

[Leeann]

Thing

From Acts of the Apostles;

14 And the multitude of men and women who believed in the Lord, was more increased: 15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that when Peter came, his shadow at the least, might overshadow any of them, and they might be delivered from their infirmities.

Why did the people not just pray to Jesus and be cured from their infirmities, why did they go through St. Peter when they wanted to be cured.

They didn’t “go through Peter” to be cured.
Read the verse again above – they “believed in the Lord”.

Did their faith and prayer to St. Peter have its effect, were they cured? Yes.

There is no indication that they placed their faith in Peter, they placed their faith in the Lord and believed in the Lord….there is also no indication that they prayed to Peter.

Yes they were healed – by the power of God.

 

[prodigal-sun]

I posted this last month. Post #1038. It is recommended reading by the Catholic Church.

motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=962&Itemid=83
Mary Is Our Advocate, Able to Save All
By St. Alphonsus de Liguori

And therefore, says Saint Peter Damian, the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven and on earth. She is able to raise even those who are in despair to confidence, and he addresses her in these words: “All power is given to you in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to you, who can raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation.” (7) And then he adds that “when the Mother goes to seek a favor for us from Jesus Christ” (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), “her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.” (8) Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother, who honored Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “You are the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God you need no other recommendation; for you are the Mother of true life.” (9)
“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: “Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) “Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son.” (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, “God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” (14)Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent;

Do you think this is OK? If this is true then we should be worshiping Mary.

If you mean we should be worshipping Mary as God I would have to say NO!

Peace!

 

[Leeann]

Good fella
Scripture comes from Tradition. Their order isn’t inverse. Scripture is infallible because Tradition is infallible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Please reflect on John 16: 12-13. Jesus is addressing his apostles, not general believers who presume to have been enlightened in the fullness of divine truth, keeping in mind those who will ‘validly’ succeed them in generations to come until the end of this age.

I agree with what you’ve stated above…. the part about infallibility being under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And I have always understood that Jesus is addressing his Apostles and not ‘general believers’, as you refer to them, in John 16:12-13.

My point is that the validity of the Apostle’s successors, does not rest solely within the Catholic Church’s domain – as much as they would love to believe this to be true.
No one institution or organization can contain or operate what His will is or to whom He decides He will enlighten with the fullness of His divine truth.

Good fella

Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us (Sacred Tradition), just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us (Oral Tradition), I, too, have decided, after investigating everything anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence (Sacred Scripture) for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may realize with certainty of the teachings you have received.
Luke 1, 1-4

Sacred Scripture must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition by the Apostolic teaching authority of the Catholic Church.

To take the above verse and apply it to the Catholic Church’s claim that they alone have the true “Sacred Tradition” or “Oral Tradition” in an attempt to substantiate the claim that scripture can only be interpreted by their “teaching authority” is misleading.
Simply because the Catholic Church teaches this, does not make it true and as you are aware not everyone believes this to be true.

Good fella

The Church Fathers I quoted succeeded the Apostles and taught with the Apostolic authority invested in them by Christ through the Holy Spirit.

Again, this is what the Catholic Church teaches…

Good fella

They served to articulate the teachings of the Apostles and what some of them had implicitly put down in writing. Outside the Church and far removed in time nobody is in a viable position to presume what the apostles had actually preached and what the faithful believed.

What the Catholic Church would like everyone to believe….however, as Paul made evidence too when he visited the Galatians – chapter 1 /11-12 –

11 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

And further on in the same chapter V 17- 20

17 Neither went I to Jerusalem, to the apostles who were before me: but I went into Arabia, and again I returned to Damascus. 18 Then, after three years, I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord. 20 Now the things which I write to you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Obviously Paul was singled out for a specific mission by the Lord back then, but as it is plainly stated, it has happened - that being - without the direct contact of being with the Apostles.
As for not being in a “viable position” as to knowing what the Apostles had actually preached back then – well, as Luke stated in the scripture you posted earlier, he made a pretty significant attempt at recording what had happened and what was happening, as is found also in the other N.T. epistles to the churches that the Apostles had already established.
And let’s not forget the Holy Spirit….who all true and faithful believers are indwelled by.

Good fella

Moreover, you are mistaken in classifying the ECFs as general early believers.

I didn’t classify the “ECFs” as “general” early believers….you did.
I stated that they were early believers – is this not true?

Good fella

And keep in mind that heretics like Bishop Nestorious, who presumed that they understood the Scriptures independently, had deviated from orthodox doctrines and were condemned by Popes and Ecumenical Councils.

Keeping in mind also, that there are now doctrines of the Catholic Church, that have been accepted but have also deviated from what was originally instituted by the Apostles – such as the Marian doctrines……which in a way, brings this thread back on topic……to whom would the Apostles have pointed too….Mary or Jesus?

Good fella

Paul acknowledged his ministry as a divine office. Any office, including that of the president of the United States, has valid successors who continue to erect what has begun.

No problem with that statement at all.
God will choose and use whomever He decides too, to continue the growth of His Church of all true and faithful believers….whether it be within the Catholic Church or outside of it.

 

[Leeann]

Good fella

" ’ There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a flower shall grow out of his roots.’ The rod is the mother of the Lord – simple, pure, unsullied; drawing no germ of life from without but fruitful in singleness like God himself…Set before you the blessed Mary, whose surpassing purity made her meet to be the mother of our Lord."
St. Jerome (A.D. 384)

Have no fear, Leeann. Jerome was familiar with Isaiah as he was with all the prophets and the apostles. He translated the Bible from the Greek into the Latin.

Yes, by God’s will and grace and illumination of the Holy Spirit, Jerome made the translations.
However, that doesn’t necessarily translate into Jerome’s interpretation or comments, such as the one given above, he was a man, as fallible as any of us.

 

[Leeann]

Good fella
Please reflect on the following citations and quotes. There’s really no point in trying to explain anything to you, since you obviously joined this forum to contest the Catholic faith with deaf ears.

prodigal – sun

Originally Posted by guanophore
I suppose we all read with our preconceived notions. These were yours, and will probably continue to be yours when you leave CAF. It is too bad that you did not come here to learn what we really believe, and only to confirm your own twisted understanding of the Cathlic faith. The Pope, along with any other faithful Catholic, will never ask anyone in the communion of saints 'as opposed to going to/through Jesus in prayer". Such a statement shows that you not only misunderstand our devotion to Mary, but also the entire thrust of the Apostolic prayer life preserved in the Catholic Church.

I don’t think Leeann misunderstands our devotions, how can she, they are all explained very nicely in this thread and anyone reading through it will have a great understanding of what the communion of the saints is. Leeann simply chooses not to believe the truth. She remains blinded by her self rightouness making herself as the pope along with the indivduals that taught her. Her pride gets in the way of truth because if she allowed the truth to unveil her blindness she would have to say yes to the one true holy apostolic universal Church.

Even though Leeann will not let this twisted view go there will be many more that are reading this thread who’s eyes and hearts will be opened. So to that Leeann we should thank you! We should also thank the true wisdom and charity that many of our Catholic brothers & sisters have shown on this thread.

God Bless!

I have come to this forum to read all the responses with regards to the thread topic question and to try and gain more of an understanding, both by the content and by delivery of the answers, as to why people do not do as the Apostles directed the very first believers to do when praying to God.

It is becoming evident to me, that it is because they place their implicit faith in the Catholic Church and what the Church itself has developed and taught over the years……and not in God Himself.

 

[guanophore]

I agree with you on all the above but not on all the following.

This is the creation of a female deity.

Though he is not using the term omnipotent in that manner, i don’t care for the language either. i think it contributes to the type of misunderstanding that you and leeann have.

i just ignore it, since it is not part of the Teaching of the Church.

 

[guanophore]

If Catholicism was the religion the whole world acknolwledged as the only religion and there were no Protestants, Muslims or Jews this would still be false doctrine. It has nothing to do with disrespect or jealousy. Also no disrespect intended for you.

**“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” **Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: “Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) “Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, “the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son.” (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, **“God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” **(14)Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent;

That’s just it, though, Ron. it is not a doctrine. It is a pious devotion. It is not binding on the faithful. The Rosary is the same way. It is not part of the Apostolic deposit of faith.

 

[guanophore]

They didn’t “go through Peter” to be cured.

Read the verse again above – they “believed in the Lord”.

your false dichotomy is leaking again, leeann. They did go thru peter to be healed. They did so because they believed in the lord. This practice has not changed from the time peter’s shadow fell on those to heal them, and the present day. This is what we are trying to communicate to you. peter’s shadow healing is BECAUSE they believe. They went out and lined the streets to wait for peter BECAuse they believed in Christ. The two are not separated, as you seem to suppose.

There is no indication that they placed their faith in Peter, they placed their faith in the Lord and believed in the Lord….there is also no indication that they prayed to Peter.

Yes they were healed – by the power of God.

They were healed thorugh peter. it was peter walking by they went out to access - to get into his shadow. To say they had no faith in peter in doing this is absurd. Their faith in jesus is not separated from what jesus was doing in the life and shadow of peter.

i have no doubt that the people spoke to peter as he passed by. if their expression was in the form of a supplication, it was a prayer.

 

[Rocky]

I don’t see the connection.

In Scripture Mary makes statements such as “I know not man”, “My soul doth magnify the Lord”, “all generations will call me blessed” and “You see that your father and I have been searching for you in sorrow.” But once, and only once, does she command someone to do something, and that is to do whatever Jesus says.

Why should I, or any Christian for that matter, be afraid to put myself under her command?

 

[guanophore]

My point is that the validity of the Apostle’s successors, does not rest solely within the Catholic Church’s domain – as much as they would love to believe this to be true.
No one institution or organization can contain or operate what His will is or to whom He decides He will enlighten with the fullness of His divine truth.

no, the church believes the validity of the successors lies in Christ, who has ordained them. They are valid because he validates them. The Church agrees.
Leeann;4903526:

 To take the above verse and apply it to the Catholic Church’s claim that they alone have the true “Sacred Tradition” or “Oral Tradition” in an attempt to substantiate the claim that scripture can only be interpreted by their “teaching authority” is misleading.

Simply because the Catholic Church teaches this, does not make it true and as you are aware not everyone believes this to be true.

i agree, but i am not sure if that is the intention. Theophilus received the Apostolic Teaching from the Church. The scripture testifies to that teaching, and confirms it. What the verse shows is this truth.

i know there are many that reject the historical facts, but that does not make them go away. The deposit of faith was given by Christ to the Apostles, not to a book. The books were then written out of that Sacred Tradition.This is why there are no contradictions between the two. There cannot be, since they come from the same source.

Again, this is what the Catholic Church teaches....

This is taught be cause this is how jesus set up the church to work.

What the Catholic Church would like everyone to believe….however, as Paul made evidence too when he visited the Galatians – chapter 1 /11-12 –

11 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

And further on in the same chapter V 17- 20

17 Neither went I to Jerusalem, to the apostles who were before me: but I went into Arabia, and again I returned to Damascus. 18 Then, after three years, I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord. 20 Now the things which I write to you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Obviously Paul was singled out for a specific mission by the Lord back then, but as it is plainly stated, it has happened - that being - without the direct contact of being with the Apostles.

i think i must be missing your point here. The Catholic Church retains the revelation of God to the Church. paul is part of that revelation. paul also received revelation and ordination from the Church.

many protestants imagine that, since paul had private revelations from Christ,t hat he was not in unity with the other Apostles.

As for not being in a “viable position” as to knowing what the Apostles had actually preached back then – well, as Luke stated in the scripture you posted earlier, he made a pretty significant attempt at recording what had happened and what was happening, as is found also in the other N.T. epistles to the churches that the Apostles had already established.

i agree. it is only when this is separated from the Apostolic Teaching that produced it that errors ensue.

And let’s not forget the Holy Spirit….who all true and faithful believers are indwelled by.

indeed they are, united together in one body, to his one church. Some people seem to writhe over being united with Catholics.

The hs does not lead people differently from previous revelation.

Keeping in mind also, that there are now doctrines of the Catholic Church, that have been accepted but have also deviated from what was originally instituted by the Apostles – such as the Marian doctrines…..which in a way, brings this thread back on topic……**to whom would the Apostles have pointed too….Mary or Jesus**?

no, there are no deviations from Apostolic teaching in Catholic doctrine. There are some things that did not occur until after the nt was written, or the death of the Apostles. The formation of the nt is one of those.

The Apostles were with mary in the upper room praying. They are still today.

 

[ron77nyc]

In Scripture Mary makes statements such as “I know not man”, “My soul doth magnify the Lord”, “all generations will call me blessed” and “You see that your father and I have been searching for you in sorrow.” But once, and only once, does she command someone to do something, and that is to do whatever Jesus says.

Why should I, or any Christian for that matter, be afraid to put myself under her command?

Mary is telling those present to submit to Jesus.

 

[Graubo3]

Mary is telling those present to submit to Jesus.

Ron,

Just how common was a womanly command in this social setting to the Jewish culture?

Peace, Graubo

 

[ron77nyc]

Though he is not using the term omnipotent in that manner, i don’t care for the language either. i think it contributes to the type of misunderstanding that you and leeann have.

i just ignore it, since it is not part of the Teaching of the Church.

I don’t misunderstand it because I know through studying the scriptures that God and only God is omnipotent but I believe it is the source of confusion throughout the history of the Church and the cause of many useless arguments and divisions among Christians. The writings of St. Alphonse Liguori are recommended reading for Catholics. There is a double message in his thoughts and others who over-venerate Mary. They are saying God is all powerful but Mary is all powerful. Jesus wants to forgive you but if you go to Mary you have a better chance of being forgiven because she is a Jewish mother who tells her son what to do.

 

[ron77nyc]

Ron,

Just how common was a womanly command in this social setting to the Jewish culture?

Peace, Graubo

I don’t really know. Does that give Mary all power on heaven and earth ?

 

[Graubo3]

I don’t really know. Does that give Mary all power on heaven and earth ?

Ron,

I don’t think that it elevates Mary to “all power on heaven and earth”. Never heard that argument of that being bestowed upon her. I do believe in Mary’s command and I fall very short every day. I believe that Mary was the first Christian and set an everlasting example of faith in God by an earthly creature. Have a nice weekend. Gotta go.

Peace, Graubo

 

[ron77nyc]

Ron,

I don’t think that it elevates Mary to “all power on heaven and earth”. Never heard that argument of that being bestowed upon her. I do believe in Mary’s command and I fall very short every day. I believe that Mary was the first Christian and set an everlasting example of faith in God by an earthly creature. Have a nice weekend. Gotta go.

Peace, Graubo

The writings of Alphonse Liguori elevate Mary to a position equal to God. It is recommended reading by the Church. So the Church is saying we don’t teach this as doctrine but we respect this man and want you to read it.

 

[Good_Fella]

… the Apostle’s successors, does not rest solely within the Catholic Church’s domain – as much as they would love to believe this to be true.

The validity of Apostolic Succession has always rested within the ‘One’ Holy Catholic Apostolic Church since apostolic time and had before the great Schism in the 11th century and the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. The Catholic Church has always known this to be true since apostolic time in view of the words of our Lord.

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they (the apostles) appointed the firstfruits of their labors, having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe…Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, there would be ‘strife’ on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, …they appointed those ministers already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…”
*Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) *

To take the above verse and apply it to the Catholic Church’s claim that they alone have the true “Sacred Tradition” or “Oral Tradition” in an attempt to substantiate the claim that scripture can only be interpreted by their “teaching authority” is misleading.
Simply because the Catholic Church teaches this, does not make it true…

It’s Sacred Tradition ‘and’ Oral Tradition. The two forms are distinct from one another. They mustn’t be confused with each other. Protestantism is a 16th century phenomenon and has no connection with the historic Christian faith. The early reformers were private individuals who hijacked and warped the Catholic faith and plagarized the Church’s Scriptures molding them to fit their individual theologies while having no divine mandate. Sacred Tradition has been a part of the Church’s deposit of faith since apostolic time, and it was for 1500+ years before Protestantism arose from the great abyss (Rev 9) being a chaos of faith and morals severed from the Church and a central Apostolic teaching authority. The Church’s Tradition certainly isn’t man-made, for Jesus promised his disciples that he wouldn’t leave them orphaned. That he would come to them through the Paraclete and remain with them until the end of time. By the way, the Marian doctrines of the Church and devotion to Mary lasted for about another 100 years in Protestantism after the Reformation. With the rise of Rationalism, the Mother of our Lord was eventually swept under the carpet to Satan’s delight. That’s how far removed you are from Apostolic Tradition and the Sacred.

Again, this is what the Catholic Church teaches…

Again this is what the Catholic Church has always acknowledged and taught since apostolic time - when there was only ‘one’ universal Church as there still is now in spite of the heretical movements which have sprung up in Christendom through the course of centuries.

“See that ye all follow the bishop (not the monk or the lawyer), even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those who carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper ‘Eucharist’, which is administered by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear (not a monk or a lawyer), there let the multitude also be; even as, where Jesus Christ is (really present in the Eucharist), there is the Catholic Church.”
Ignatius of Antioch (c.A.D. 110)

Ignatius was a disciple of John, and like his mentor he believed and taught that the Holy Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ. Protestants don’t believe this. But it’s understandable considering you are severed from Apostolic Tradition and outside the Church.

Obviously Paul was singled out for a specific mission by the Lord back then, but as it is plainly stated, it has happened - that being - without the direct contact of being with the Apostles.

Are you sure about that? :coffeeread:

While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then completing their fasting and prayer, they ‘laid hands on them’ and sent them off.
Acts 13, 2-3

Even though Paul was directly chosen by Christ, his apostolic ministry wasn’t ratified until he was formally ordained by a bishop of the Church through the ‘laying on of hands.’ By this means the authority to teach is transferred on the foundation of the Apostles. Sacramental ordination is necessary for one to be a legitimate successor of the apostles and preacher of the gospels. The Church Fathers are as legitimate as Paul as teachers of the word. What they teach about Mary is true. The burden of proof lies with Protestants who must finally show that the Church’s Marian doctrines contravene Scripture. Until now they have failed miserably in their attempts.

PAX :harp: