Exactly. This is her eternal message to all. If I put myself under Mary, she will send me to Jesus. She will tell me “do whatever He tells you”. She will do it with a mother’s love, but perfect obedience to her Son is her expectation of all those who have been adopted by Him.
Right,so if it bothers you so much, don’t read it! It is helpful to some people in their walk with God. Different people need different things.
I’m afraid you misunderstand what Alphonse Liguori means by the expression “all power on heaven and earth”. The Son of Man categorically states that his authority is not his own, but from God (Jn 7:16:17) and that he does nothing on his own authority (Jn 8:28). Even the word he speaks is not his own, but comes from the Father (Jn 14:10). However, the Son of Man claims: “All authority (power) in heaven and on earth has been given to me” (Mt 28:18). The Son has what the Father has and has given to him, but what the Son has been given is transferred by divine authority to his apostles (Jn 16: 14-15).
ron77nyc;4906902:
I’m afraid you misunderstand what Alphonse Liguori means by the expression “all power on heaven and earth”.
What you don’t understand is that you have a mortal capacity to misunderstand.
I understand that the Church doesn’t encourage private interpretation of scripture because they want to protect Catholics from error but they don’t really mind if people believe Mary is the head of the church and equal in power and authority to Jesus.
I think the present postings are sufficient to express that.
Honestly, ron, you can’t ‘micro-manage’ other peoples’ thoughts! Because you personally ‘read’ a particular emphasis into St. Alphonsus Ligouri’s writings which you find a problem, please don’t try to play nanny (or uncle) and assume that all Catholics or nonCatholics are going to be ‘confused’ and wind up ‘worshipping’ Mary.
It’s laudable that you (and probably LeeAnn also is really concerned for ‘other people’, at least in part) are ‘concerned for the faith of others’ but the old adage about ‘taking the plank out of your eye before going after the speck in your brother’s eye’ holds very true in this situation.
Over and over you and other worriers have been given correct Catholic teaching which very clearly states the positions of Jesus, Mary, Christians, non-Christians, etc., none of which in any way shows that Catholics would ‘point to somebody other than Jesus’–specifically, to Mary.
There’s another old adage - “Actions speak louder than words”…
To continue with the “but-but” syndrome. . .'But. . .this Catholic writer says this. … This pope said this. . .yadda yadda after reasonable, documented explanations have been given which show that the writer, the pope, the Church etc. never ever said or implied or taught that there is somebody ‘other than’ Jesus to whom ‘we point’ goes beyond ‘concern’ to outright implication that we Catholics are either STUPID, or liars, or both when it comes to our teachings.
You refer to “reasonable, documented explanations” - that description would be in your own opinion of course…and to your own satisfaction…which may explain the frustration you seem to continue to exhibit.
And I for one am quite tired of this implication, even when it is couched in the apparent ‘honey’ of ‘concern for Christians’.
Any “implications” that *you *have drawn, as to Catholics being STUPID, or liars, or both - is of *your *own making and design…and might also fall under the “micro-managing other people’s thoughts” that you attribute to others.
That might fly once or twice but when we’ve had not one but TWO identical threads where the patent ‘disbelief’ and ‘but-but’ insinuations keep on being put forth despite the clear, documented teaching of the Church being given by me and many other posters, over and over. . .
There are TWO identical threads because the first thread was closed as it went above the posting quota - as to the ‘clear documented teaching of the Church being given by you and many other posters’…over and over…I once again thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and participation, but if you are satisfied that you have responded sufficiently, you are quite free to leave at any time. There are others that may also wish to respond and I’d value their (name removed by moderator)ut also.
Well, it’s time for those who keep making up (and I mean ‘making up’) these threads to come right out and say,
“Hey, look. This is what I, a protestant (or a Catholic who ‘questions’ teachings) SAY is taught by your false church. No matter what you show me in the Catechism, the ECFs, or even the Bible itself to support your Church’s teachings as correct, I SAY you’re wrong, and you aren’t ever going to convince me, and I’m going to keep on saying your Church teaches something false, so there.”
Then we’ll know what you believe, you’ll only have to say it once (especially helpful for those who ‘cut-and-paste’, not that I am accusing anyone on this thread of doing so), and we can reply only once with the truth.
Simple. Effective. You say X, we say Y, no hard feelings, the truth is out there, and you don’t wind up causing confusion, hurt, and even outright sin. It’s a win-win situation.
Well that’s the problem isn’t it in these threads…no such thing as a simple response, it usually gets thrown off into other areas altogether with statements and lengthy pontificating (and cutting and pasting) on everything from the ECF’s to the authority of the Catholic Church, to who gave us the bible, to accusations on a persons sincerity, honesty…etc.,etc.,etc…:
Why not try it in thread 3 of “Prayer of Pope to Mary?”
Tantum…I think you’re burned out…go rest…take a nap…give yourself a big shake…pray the rosary…do something that brings you some peace.
(((Tantum)))) < cyber hugs - and thank you.Well hey, LeeAnn. It was a dull month without you.
I’m feeling fine. Thanks though, for your suggestion. I hope to get to confession tomorrow before the Vigil Mass. . .that will really fire me up. A nice Litany to the Sacred Heart of Jesus tonight will be lovely–and I’ll be sure to include prayers for all of you here on CAF. A blessed Lent to you. I really mean that. We might not agree on some issues but I still wish you God’s love, peace and joy through Lent, Easter, and beyond. Sometimes the medium can make communications so one-dimensional for ‘messages’ that all the other aspects of interpersonal communication can get diminished or distorted and the true Christian love and care might not seem to be there. But it is. God bless.
I think this statement perfectly exemplifies what Good Fella is telling you.
If you have never been to Mass, Leeann,then you have never seen Catholics worship. All you have seen is extracurricular activity.
It is true that there is probably no amount of evidence that will pursuade you. Your mind was made up before you came here.
No, implications are drawn from the information forwarded. Indeed, these are the implications of your statements. Unfortunately, I know that there are Catholics who are,I will use the word ignorant, as well as liars, and some are both. That does not change the Catholic teaching either, any more than Judas’ betrayal makes Jesus teaching invalid.
Really? It doesn’t seem that any of the information has been of value to you.
Another sad but true statement.
guanophore, as has happened in the past, you have an innate way of posting quotes and then adding your response ….however they are always just “that bit” out of context to what the original topic that was originally being discussed.
If it was prayer **“to Peter” **– (see the posting that I was responding too below) - he would have rebuked them and pointed them to the Lord.
Yessss……you are correct…you must have missed my point there….???
And other approved men did succeed them in their ministry….but that in no way means that they all ended up in the lineage that has developed over the centuries into the Catholic Church as it is known today…or even as it was known prior to the 11th century schism……or the great gathering under the umbrella during Constantine’s time.
Yes. I understand that, as you made the distinction between them in your previous post.
The same promise that is made to all true and faithful believers in Christ, no matter what “church” or “denomination” they may or may not attend.
More to the point, is that the Marian doctrines and the devotion to Mary that exists today within the Catholic Church, was never acknowledged or referred to by the Apostles when they were establishing the early churches.
Another point of view that could be stated, is that the development and promulgation of the Marian doctrines over the years within the Catholic Church, resembles a “different religion” – almost unrecognizable from that of what the Apostles put forth – something that might also delight satan….but to state that would be considered crass and of no edifying value whatsoever…wouldn’t it.
You state that John believed and taught that the “Holy Eucharist” is the actual body and blood of Christ, where do you get that information from?
This is simply not true.
“Sacramental ordination”, as defined by the Catholic Church, is* not* necessary for one to be a legitimate successor of the Apostles and preacher of the gospels, as has been shown in the scripture references above.
And this is understandably your opinion. :coffeeread:
Thank you for your opinion on what you believe I understand or don’t understand, as well as for your opinion as to what I see as God’s desire for the roles that human beings play……however incorrect those opinions may be from your perspective.
Christ’s blood sacrifice undid what Adam and Eve incurred.
Thanks for posting Graubo3.