Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[firstmode]

Here is your answer without looking towards tradition:

Romans 10:17 (New International Version)
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Hebrews 11:6 (New International Version)
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

**Proverbs 4:20-22 (New International Version)
20 My son, pay attention to what I say;
listen closely to my words.
21 Do not let them out of your sight,
keep them within your heart;
22 for they are life to those who find them
and health to a man’s whole body.
**

1 John 5:14-15 (New International Version)
14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

James 1:5-6 (New International Version)
5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

John 14:11-16 (New International Version)
11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Philippians 4:6 (New International Version)
6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

John 15:7 (New International Version)
7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

John 16:23 (New International Version)
23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Mark 11:24 (New International Version)
24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Matthew 21:18-22 (New International Version)
The Fig Tree Withers
18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Romans 8:26-27 (New International Version)
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

 

[Good_Fella]

Yes, by God’s will and grace and illumination of the Holy Spirit, Jerome made the translations.
However, that doesn’t necessarily translate into Jerome’s interpretation or comments, such as the one given above, he was a man, as fallible as any of us.

But a shoot shall spout from the stump of Jesse,
and from his roots a bud shall blossom.
Isaiah 11, 1 [NAB]

Jerome was aware that the ‘shoot’ and the ‘bud’ refer to the Messiah. But he figuratively applies the symbol of the shoot or rod to the Blessed Virgin Mary. He is emphasizing the fact that the woman of promise first prophesied in the Protoevangelium (Gen 3:15), as at enmity with Satan together with her Son, has a special participation in the order of redemption in a manner that is equal in importance and dignity to the male existence of Jesus. The Church Father is drawing our attention to the intimate association between the new Adam and the new Eve in undoing what both Adam and Eve had incurred in their disobedience and fall from grace. The evangelist Luke acknowledged this special redemptive union between the woman and her offspring in God’s plan of salvation. In the words of Elizabeth: “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” (Lk 1:42).

In Jerome’s view Mary is the rod from whom sprouts the flower, Jesus. There is a certain equivalence between Mary and Jesus, for God chose no path other than the Incarnation to redeem the world and reconcile the human race to himself. Since both male and female had freely caused the human race to fall from God’s grace through disobedience, our heavenly Father ordained that both male and female must serve him to restore the human race to friendship with him. God willed to rely on the faith and love of a woman to help save us from sin and death by the victorious merits of her divine Son. And in order to fit the role Mary had to be as simple, pure, and unsullied as her divine Son was in his humanity. Meanwhile, for us to be saved, we must die to our old self and put on a new self in the Spirit, namely Christ the new Adam. In this sense we are all called to be a shoot from the stump of Jesse and to bud forth as a newly created flower. Among all human creatures in the order of grace, Mary is the model par excellence. Her simplicity and purity served to undo Eve’s succumbing to the serpent’s temptation in her vanity.

"Inasmuch as He has a preexistence as a saving Being, it was necessary that what might be saved should also be called into existence, in order that the being who saves should not exist in vain. In accordance with this design, Mary the virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done unto me according to your word.’ "
Irenaeus (A.D. 180)

God would not come down to us, by assuming the fullness of our humanity, to save us unless he were welcomed. True faith and love cannot exist by coercion. When Mary heard the word of God and observed it, she was not a passive instrument. There’s nothing blessed about being a puppet on a string regardless of whom the master is. For God desires to save us provided we want to be saved after having acknowledged we need to be saved from our sins and are sorry for them. This is what cooperation with God’s grace or favour is all about: the desire to overcome our sinful inclinations and be at peace with God because we love him, not that we fear his wrath. In Mary’s case it was lovingly doing only what God desired of her. Mary’s ego did not come between her and God as it did with Eve. Mary destested sin for she knew it offended the One whom she loved above all things and it was something completely alien to her human nature. Our Blessed Mother’s soul proclaimed the greatness of the Lord (Lk 1:46). She could not sin for she had no wish to be enslaved by sin and be at enmity with God.

The Protestant doctrine of Sola Christu is foreign to the Scriptures and the teachings of the early Church Fathers who perceived Mary as a type of new Eve, whose faith and love contributed not only to her salvation but ours as well. Indeed Mary was rather blessed for having believed the word of God and kept it (Lk 1:45; 11:28). When Mary told the angel Gabriel “Let it be done to me,” she was actually giving her free consent to God’s gracious and unmerited offer of salvation in a spirit of true faith. And so in the words of Irenaeus, the world has in a certain way been “saved by a virgin”. Mary’s ‘Fiat’ is causative of our salvation in and through Christ, whose redemptive merits alone made his blessed mother’s contribution possible, now that his heavenly Father wills that free human participation is essential in the economy of salvation, and that it should initially involve a special association between a male and a female to reverse the fall of Adam and Eve.

If Mary had ever fallen from God’s grace in like manner of the old Eve, then God’s wise scheme would have come to ruin. But God chose Mary to be the mother of his Only-begotten Son, for he knew that the woman he would fashion without any stain of sin on her soul would be constant in faith throughout her entire life. Mary’s ‘Fiat’ initially opened the door of hope for the human race, for she brought us the One who has opened the gates of heaven. Her simplicity and purity made her worthy to be the new Eve.

PAX :harp:

 

[Peter_J]

I posted this last month. Post #1038. It is recommended reading by the Catholic Church.

motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=962&Itemid=83
Mary Is Our Advocate, Able to Save All
By St. Alphonsus de Liguori

Hi Ron,

What proof can you offer us that it’s “recommended reading by the Catholic Church”? (I trust you don’t think that “recommended reading by motherofallpeoples-dot-com” equates to “recommended reading by the Catholic Church”.)

P.S. For what it’s worth, let me add that although I believe in free speech, I am deepened saddened both by what I saw on motherofallpeoples.com, and also by things that have been said by Catholics on this thread in the last few days.

 

[guanophore]

guanophore, as has happened in the past, you have an innate way of posting quotes and then adding your response ….

No,it is not inate. I learned it here at CAF

If it was prayer **“to Peter” **– (see the posting that I was responding too below) - he would have rebuked them and pointed them to the Lord.

Prayer means to ask, to supplicate. The people asked Peter for things. He did not turn them away. He answered them in the name of the Lord, just as he had been directed to do by Jesus. When they sought his shadow on the road, they demonstrated a form of prayer, of supplication. God answered their prayers to be healed through Peter, because they believed in the Lord, and because Peter was open to be used by God as an instrument of healing to the people. This is the intercession of the saints.

When Cornelius prayed Peter to come to his house, Peter did not just sit there on the roof and tell the people bringing the supplicaiton “no, go to the Lord”. Peter knew that the Lord wanted to use him to answer Cornelius prayer, so he got up and went with them.

When he arrived, Cornelius repeated and explained his supplication. Peter did not just stand there and tell them “go to the Lord”. He gave to Cornelius what the Lord had given him. This is how the saints respond to our supplications. They give to us what the Lord has given them. The do this because God enables them to do so, and God is pleased to work through the saints. God could have poured the Spirit out upon Cornelius without Peter. God chose to work thorugh Peter. God could have healed the people without Peter’s shadow. He chose to work through Jesus shadow. This does not “lessen” God.

you must have missed my point there….???

Consistently. It seems expedient for me to allow God to be God,and do things the way He has decided.

 

[guanophore]

And other approved men did succeed them in their ministry….but that in no way means that they all ended up in the lineage that has developed over the centuries into the Catholic Church as it is known today…or even as it was known prior to the 11th century schism……or the great gathering under the umbrella during Constantine’s time.

Oh but there is! Those who are in the succession are able to do this. Those who are separated from it cannot. The Apostolic lineage is historically verifiable.

The same promise that is made to all true and faithful believers in Christ, no matter what “church” or “denomination” they may or may not attend.

Jesus only founded One Church, Leeann, and only has One Body. He did not found “churches” or “denominations”. He gave this promise to the One Church. It does not apply to any who leave her.

 

[guanophore]

More to the point, is that the Marian doctrines and the devotion to Mary that exists today within the Catholic Church, was never acknowledged or referred to by the Apostles when they were establishing the early churches.

You are making an erroneous assumption on the basis of your limited information. You cannot find the evidence in your NT, so you assume it never happened. However, there are many historical facts that did occur that are not found in the NT, like that Peter went to Rome, and was martryed there.

Once the Sacred Scriptures were separated from the Tradition, much information was lost. Our separated brethren no longer have the elements of apostolic practices that were preserved in the prayers, practices, and liturgies.

In fact the Apostles were very devoted to Mary, as she was to them. They considered her their own mother, by adoption, and she considered them her sons, brothers of her son.

Another point of view that could be stated, is that the development and promulgation of the Marian doctrines over the years within the Catholic Church, resembles a “different religion” – almost unrecognizable from that of what the Apostles put forth –  something that might also delight satan….but to state that would be considered crass and of no edifying value whatsoever…wouldn’t it. :rolleyes:

Yes, and a violation of the forum rules, as insulting to our faith.

I understand that you must cling to the remnant of Apostolic teaching that is left to you. It is incomplete, but you seem satisfied with it. This being the case, please be content in the truncated portion of the Apostolic faith left to you, and refrain from disparaging those of us who have received the fullness of the faith.

You state that John believed and taught that the “Holy Eucharist” is the actual body and blood of Christ, where do you get that information from?

The successors of the Apostles taught us that Jn. 6 is about the Eucharist. Sounds like a great new thread, though!

 

[Leeann]

Here is your answer without looking towards tradition:

Romans 10:17 (New International Version)
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Hebrews 11:6 (New International Version)
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

**Proverbs 4:20-22 (New International Version)
20 My son, pay attention to what I say;
listen closely to my words.
21 Do not let them out of your sight,
keep them within your heart;
22 for they are life to those who find them
and health to a man’s whole body.
**

1 John 5:14-15 (New International Version)
14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

James 1:5-6 (New International Version)
5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

John 14:11-16 (New International Version)
11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Philippians 4:6 (New International Version)
6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

John 15:7 (New International Version)
7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

John 16:23 (New International Version)
23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Mark 11:24 (New International Version)
24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Matthew 21:18-22 (New International Version)
The Fig Tree Withers
18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Romans 8:26-27 (New International Version)
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

Amen…thanks for posting firstmode.

 

[guanophore]

This is simply not true.
The above scripture is in reference to the first “missionary” trip that Paul made with Barnabas out of Antioch.
Those gathered, fasted and prayed and “they laid hands” on them, and sent them away…there was no “formal ordination by a bishop” as defined by the Catholic Church.
As you will see below, (Saul/Paul) was already ministering, preaching and teaching *prior *to this missionary trip.

I think that those who are separated from the Apostolic Succession must work hard to try to separate authority from it, otherwise it is not possible to justify being in separation.

However, Jesus sent Paul first to the Church, where he was properly received by the Church, just as all converts are today. Hands were laid upon him by an authorized person through the Apsotlic succession.

The Bishops were the SUCCESSORS of the Apostles. Paul was authorized by those appointed by the other Apostles to do this work. “They” in this passage is the gathering of believers with their elders. It is an error to think they were not in communion with and obedient to the Apostles.

Acts 9: V20 – 22
20 And immediately he (Saul/Paul) preached Jesus in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. 21 And all that heard him, were astonished, and said: Is not this he who persecuted in Jerusalem those that called upon this name: and came hither for that intent, that he might carry them bound to the chief priests? 22 But Saul increased much more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt at Damascus, affirming that this is the Christ.

And further on in verses 27 – 31

27 But Barnabas took him,(Saul/Paul) and brought him to the apostles, and told them how he had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken to him; and how in Damascus he had dealt confidently in the name of Jesus. 28 And he was with them coming in and going out in Jerusalem, and dealing confidently in the name of the Lord. 29 He spoke also to the Gentiles, and disputed with the Greeks; but they sought to kill him. 30 Which when the brethren had known, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him away to Tarsus. 31 Now the church had peace throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria; and was edified, walking in the fear of the Lord, and was filled with the consolation of the Holy Ghost.

Barnabas acted in the role of what is today in the Latin Rite called a “sponsor”. An accepted member of the community that is in good standing and can attest to the authenticity of the faith of the candidate before the shepherds of the Church.

Why do you think it was so important for Barnabas to bring Paul to the Apostles?

And Acts 11: 25-26

25 And Barnabas went to Tarsus to seek Saul (Paul) whom, when he had found, he brought to Antioch. 26 And they conversed there in the church a whole year; and** they ****taught **a great multitude, so that at Antioch the disciples were first named Christians

Are you using this passage to somehow demonstrate that Paul was not in unity with the other Apostles?

“Sacramental ordination”, as defined by the Catholic Church, is* not*

necessary for one to be a legitimate successor of the Apostles and preacher of the gospels, as has been shown in the scripture references above.

It is, Leeann. What you have done here is cherry pick verses that seem to support your point,while carefully avoiding any references that may not.

However, all this belongs on another thread. If you are now finished rebelling against the Teaching of Jesus Christ concerning His mother’s relationsip with the Church, perhaps you would like to move your spirit of rebellion into another venue? Above you mentioned the eucharist, also another excellent venue where rebellion against the teaching of Jesus has separated people from the Body.

And this is understandably your opinion. :coffeeread:

No, it is the Apostolic teaching. We just embrace it because we consider it much more valuable than our own personal opinons.

 

[guanophore]

Here is your answer without looking towards tradition:

Why would anyone want to exclude tradition?

Romans 10:17 (New International Version)
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Do you imagine that Mary didn not have faith? Did she fail to share her faith in Christ with others? Do you think she did not hear the Word?

Hebrews 11:6 (New International Version)
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Do you think that Mary did not please God? Do you think she did not receive any rewards because she did not earnestly seek Him?

**Proverbs 4:20-22 (New International Version)
20 My son, pay attention to what I say;
listen closely to my words.
21 Do not let them out of your sight,
keep them within your heart;
22 for they are life to those who find them
and health to a man’s whole body.
**

Do you imagine that Mary did not keep God’s words in her heart?

1 John 5:14-15 (New International Version)
14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

Do you think Mary did not ask anything of God? Do you think she did not have confidence about requests she might have made?

James 1:5-6 (New International Version)
5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

Do you think Mary suffered doubts, and was doubleminded - tossed about?

John 14:11-16 (New International Version)
11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Do you think that Mary didn not have faith in Jesus? do you think she did not keep on doing what He had been doing? Do you think the promise of doing greater things than Jesus does not apply to her? do you think she cannot ask for things in His name?

Philippians 4:6 (New International Version)
6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

Do you think that Mary failed to do this? Do you think that,when people asked her to pray, she failed to lead them to do this?

John 15:7 (New International Version)
7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

John 16:23 (New International Version)
23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Mark 11:24 (New International Version)
24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

How come these verses are allowed to be true for other Christians, but not for Mary?

Gal 3: 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Have you fallen for the myth that Catholics believe they can “work” their way to heaven?

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
Yes, by God’s will and grace and illumination of the Holy Spirit, Jerome made the translations.
However, that doesn’t necessarily translate into Jerome’s interpretation or comments, such as the one given above, he was a man, as fallible as any of us.
But a shoot shall spout from the stump of Jesse,
and from his roots a bud shall blossom.
Isaiah 11, 1 [NAB]

Good fella
Jerome was aware that the ‘shoot’ and the ‘bud’ refer to the Messiah. But he figuratively applies the symbol of the shoot or rod to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

And by doing so, Jerome has changed the meaning of this scripture verse.
Anyone can figuratively apply the symbols in scripture to mean anything they want. But to use a quote of his as you did, as if it somehow had “God’s truth” to it in supporting how Jerome himself viewed Mary…is simply misleading.

Good fella
He is emphasizing the fact that the woman of promise first prophesied in the Protoevangelium (Gen 3:15), as at enmity with Satan together with her Son, has a special participation in the order of redemption in a manner that is equal in importance and dignity to the male existence of Jesus.

He is assisting in the further development of a Catholic Church teaching.

Good fella
The Church Father is drawing our attention to the intimate association between the new Adam and the new Eve in undoing what both Adam and Eve had incurred in their disobedience and fall from grace. The evangelist Luke acknowledged this special redemptive union between the woman and her offspring in God’s plan of salvation. In the words of Elizabeth: “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” (Lk 1:42).

“The new Adam and the new Eve”…???..where does Luke acknowledge or any of the Apostles ever acknowledge Mary as “Eve”???

Good fella
In Jerome’s **view **Mary is the rod from whom sprouts the flower, Jesus. There is a certain equivalence between Mary and Jesus, for God chose no path other than the Incarnation to redeem the world and reconcile the human race to himself. Since both male and female had freely caused the human race to fall from God’s grace through disobedience, our heavenly Father ordained that both male and female must serve him to restore the human race to friendship with him. **God willed to rely on the faith and love of a woman to help save **us from sin and death by the victorious merits of her divine Son.

God didn’t “rely on the faith and love of a woman” – He WAS going to do this, Gabriel made this quite clear when he visited Mary and TOLD her what WAS going to happen….no request was made of Mary.

…continued…

 

[Leeann]

Good fella

God would not come down to us, by assuming the fullness of our humanity, to save us unless he were welcomed. True faith and love cannot exist by coercion. **When Mary heard the word of God and observed it, she was not a passive instrument. There’s nothing blessed about being a puppet on a string regardless of whom the master is. **For God desires to save us provided we want to be saved after having acknowledged we need to be saved from our sins and are sorry for them. This is what cooperation with God’s grace or favour is all about: the desire to overcome our sinful inclinations and be at peace with God because we love him, not that we fear his wrath. In Mary’s case it was lovingly doing only what God desired of her. Mary’s ego did not come between her and God as it did with Eve. Mary destested sin for she knew it offended the One whom she loved above all things and it was something completely alien to her human nature. Our Blessed Mother’s soul proclaimed the greatness of the Lord (Lk 1:46). She could not sin for she had no wish to be enslaved by sin and be at enmity with God.

Good fella

If Mary had ever fallen from God’s grace in like manner of the old Eve, then God’s wise scheme would have come to ruin. But God chose Mary to be the mother of his Only-begotten Son, for he knew that the woman he would fashion without any stain of sin on her soul would be constant in faith throughout her entire life.

Read the beginning of what you state above…the part about “a puppet on a string”….

Good fella
Mary’s ‘Fiat’ initially opened the door of hope for the human race, for she brought us the One who has opened the gates of heaven. Her simplicity and purity made her worthy to be the new Eve.

And of course by the Catholic Church’s teaching anyway – Mary was already conceived sinless, wasn’t she…if so……her “fiat” was a given.

 

[Good_Fella]

And other approved men did succeed them in their ministry….but that in no way means that they all ended up in the lineage that has developed over the centuries into the Catholic Church as it is known today…or even as it was known prior to the 11th century schism……or the great gathering under the umbrella during Constantine’s time.

This lineage began with the birth of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church at Pentecost. It was Peter himself who had formally inaugurated the institution of Apostolic Succession shortly after Jesus had ascended into heaven. Matthias was the first to be ordained with full apostolic authority to preach the gospel and administer the sacraments (Acts 1:15-26). Historically only the Catholic Church can show an unbroken apostolic lineage to Peter (our first Pope) and the Apostles (our first College of Bishops). This apostolic lineage couldn’t have begun outside the Church centuries later or else it wouldn’t be that. Obviously you are unfamiliar with the visible, institutional structure of the New Testament Church. The Scriptures make it clear, and Ingnatius Bishop of Antioch (c.110) confirms, that a believer had to be formally ordained by the imposition of the hands of a valid bishop to become a legitimate successor of the apostles and minister of the word and the sacraments.

Just out of academic interest you may want to read ‘The Early Church Was the Catholic Church’ by Kenneth D Whitehead. At least the first chapter on the NT Church. You may discover that the Catholic Church today bears all the rudimentary marks of the NT Church in its practices.

The same promise that is made to all true and faithful believers in Christ, no matter what “church” or “denomination” they may or may not attend.

I thought you agreed above that Jesus was addressing his apostles and not general believers. The reason why Protestantism is a body of scattered sheep is because each individual religious leader believes that the Paraclete is guiding him in his private interpretations of Scripture. Certainly Jesus had sent the Spirit of truth for the purpose of engendering and preserving a unity of faith and morals in His one universal Church - not churches or denominations. Let us not reduce God’s revealed truth to a set of unresolved theories belonging to different schools of rational thought. Dispensationalism seems to be one of the biggest unresolved issues in Protestantism, for instance, which is a major cause of Protestant division among countless denominations. The Paraclete obviously isn’t among them. Their differences will remain until Christ returns, for the legitimate apostolic teaching authority is absent in the Protestant movement.

“Since we have heard that some of our number who went out without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul.”
Acts 15, 24-25

“And that you may still be more confident…listen to a tale which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant’s death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole churches, there to ordain such who were marked out by the Spirit.”
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 210)

This practice was going on in the Catholic Church long before the reign of Constantine under the umbrella of Christ, and it has ever since the time of the apostles. :yup:

*“I love to call her (Mary) Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother – pure as a virgin and loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., the Word for childhood.” *
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 202)

PAX :harp:

 

[Leeann]

Good fella
The Protestant doctrine of Sola Christu is foreign to the Scriptures and the teachings of the early Church Fathers who perceived Mary as a type of new Eve, whose faith and love contributed not only to her salvation but ours as well. Indeed Mary was rather blessed for having believed the word of God and kept it (Lk 1:45; 11:28). When Mary told the angel Gabriel “Let it be done to me,” she was actually giving her free consent to God’s gracious and unmerited offer of salvation in a spirit of true faith. And so in the words of Irenaeus, the world has in a certain way been “saved by a virgin”. Mary’s ‘Fiat’ is causative of our salvation in and through Christ, whose redemptive merits alone made his blessed mother’s contribution possible, now that his heavenly Father wills that free human participation is essential in the economy of salvation, and that it should initially involve a special association between a male and a female to reverse the fall of Adam and Eve.

A totally different gospel to that which Paul preached.

Romans 5 : V 1- 5

1 Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God. 3 And not only so; but we glory also in tribulations, knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience trial; and trial hope; 5 **And hope confoundeth not: because the charity of God is poured forth in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us. **

And further: V11- 15

11 And not only so; but also we glory in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ,** by whom we have now received reconciliation. **12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. 13 For until the law sin was in the world; but sin was not imputed, when the law was not. 14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died; much more the grace of God, and the gift, **by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, **hath abounded unto many.

And all the finishing verses of that chapter…which brings me to your quote below:

Good fella
He is emphasizing the fact that the woman of promise first prophesied in the Protoevangelium (Gen 3:15), as at enmity with Satan together with her Son, has a special participation in the order of redemption in a manner **that is equal in importance and dignity **to the male existence of Jesus.

Paul certainly didn’t recognize Jerome’s viewpoint and what he was emphasizing - about any manner of equality in importance and dignity that Mary had to the male existence of Jesus.

Paul’s sole focus is on Jesus.

 

[Leeann]

originally posted by Good fella

With the rise of Rationalism, the Mother of our Lord was eventually swept under the carpet to Satan’s delight. That’s how far removed you are from Apostolic Tradition and the Sacred.

Response by Leeann
Another point of view that could be stated, is that the development and promulgation of the Marian doctrines over the years within the Catholic Church, resembles a “different religion” – almost unrecognizable from that of what the Apostles put forth – something that might also delight satan….but to state that would be considered crass and of no edifying value whatsoever…wouldn’t it.

guanophore

Yes, and a violation of the forum rules, as insulting to our faith.

Do the forum rules not also cover insults put forth to your brothers/sisters – although “separated” – but nevertheless in Christ?
In my response to the above comment made by Good fella, I was making the point of just how insulting and crass and of no value whatsoever those types of comments are.

guanophore

This being the case, please be content in the truncated portion of the Apostolic faith left to you, and refrain from disparaging those of us who have received the fullness of the faith.

“The fullness of the faith”….if you are referring to being lead by the Spirit of God…your own response indicates a lack of humility and graciousness and love….so perhaps you are just assuming that you have received the “fullness of the faith”.

In any event…the above statement stands as it was posted in response to the original quote and should be read within that context…and should have been reposted in “full” when you responded so indignantly.

…

As for all your other responses…most if not all of those things have already been discussed way back…as Tantum said…over and over…and way off topic…no desire or need to respond.

 

[Leeann]

Thanks for all those posting…some new people too.

Enjoying the rest of the weekend!! Be blessed!!!

 

[guanophore]

However, that doesn’t necessarily translate into Jerome’s interpretation or comments, such as the one given above, he was a man, as fallible as any of us.

In principle I agree, but since he was much closer to the original Apostolic successors, and had many documents that have not survived to today, he has a unique perspective that we do not.

And by doing so, Jerome has changed the meaning of this scripture verse.  Anyone can figuratively apply the symbols in scripture to mean anything they want.

Yes. This is something we all do when making personal applications of scripture. It is not necessarily an error.

  But to use a quote of his as you did, as if it somehow had “God’s truth” to it in supporting how Jerome himself viewed Mary…is simply misleading.

It may seem as such to one outside the Sacred Tradition. But since this is part of the deposit of faith given to the Church, he has that support as well.

 He is assisting in the further development of a Catholic Church teaching.

That is why they are called “doctors of the Church”.

“The new Adam and the new Eve”..???....where does Luke acknowledge or any of the Apostles ever acknowledge Mary as “Eve”????

You seem to be laboring under a misconception that all of Christian truths are found in the Scripture.

Eve means “mother of all living”. Mary, the Mother of Jesus, gave birth to the One who is the origin of “all living”. In a special way, those of us who are born into Him are alive forevermore. All the disciples of her Son are her adopted sons and daughters.

 God didn’t “rely on the faith and love of a woman” – He WAS going to do this, Gabriel made this quite clear when he visited Mary and TOLD her what WAS going to happen….no request was made of Mary.

You think the HS raped her?

And of course by the Catholic Church’s teaching anyway – Mary was already conceived sinless, wasn’t she…if so……her “fiat” was a given.

Clearly not! Eve was created without sin, and she chose to spurn God’s plan for her life.

 

[Leeann]

Guanophore

Are you using this passage to somehow demonstrate that Paul was not in unity with the other Apostles?

Not at all, you must have misunderstood ….again……either that, or you are trying to confuse the issue?

Originally Posted by Leeann
“Sacramental ordination”, as defined by the Catholic Church, is not necessary for one to be a legitimate successor of the Apostles and preacher of the gospels, as has been shown in the scripture references above.

Response guanophore:
It is, Leeann. What you have done here is cherry pick verses that seem to support your point, while carefully avoiding any references that may not.

Well if you like, I can post all the Chapters and Verses of Acts or perhaps all the New Testament ……however if you take the time to carefully read them through, you will never find “sacramental ordination”, as it is defined solely by the Catholic Church, as to being necessary for one to be a legitimate successor of the Apostles and a preacher of the gospels.

 

[Good_Fella]

More to the point, is that the Marian doctrines and the devotion to Mary that exists today within the Catholic Church, was never acknowledged or referred to by the Apostles when they were establishing the early churches.

The Scriptures reflect what the Apostles and the first believers acknowledged about Mary. Whether they fully understood all the theological implications is another question. The ineffable divine mysteries are not something that can be intelectually apprehended by individuals in a single moment of time. Jesus told his apostles that there was more he would tell them but at the moment it would be too much for them to understand. After all, they were still Jews who worshipped in the temple even after Jesus had ascended into heaven. They began to slowly understand the fullness of God’s revelation in Christ once the Paraclete descended upon them in the cenacle, and this understanding would gradually crystalize and be articulated through the course of the centuries. The apostles served as a foundation on which the Church would develop and grow in an understanding that had started with them and would reach fruition through their successors in time. Our Marian, Chritological, and Trinitarian dogmas are explicit and definitive revelations from God implicitly contained in the Scriptures.

What the Church Fathers implicitly and explicitly teach about Mary is scriptural. But for you the written word isn’t explicit and literal enough with regard to Mary. And what you believe about Christ and the Holy Trinity in accord with the Catholic faith you claim to find in the written word with a hindsight bias. But Scripture isn’t the only medium of divine revelation which the Church is in custody of. There is also Tradition: what the Church understands about the deeds of God in the history of salvation. The Old Testament isn’t explicit in the revelation of the Messiah as understood by the Church and taught by her. To this day the Jews see no secondary context in what we regard as prophecies pointing towards Christ. This is where Sacred Tradition enters the picture as a medium of divine revelation. The written word reflects what the Church has come to understand by the grace of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who speaks to the Church what he hears, and he reveals what has been written by his prophets and apostles in accord with Tradition through his inspiration to the measure of the Church’s grown understanding.

Another point of view that could be stated, is that the development and promulgation of the Marian doctrines over the years within the Catholic Church, resembles a “different religion” – almost unrecognizable from that of what the Apostles put forth – something that might also delight satan….but to state that would be considered crass and of no edifying value whatsoever…wouldn’t it.

Not everything the Apostles taught was explicitly put down in writing. At the time of their ministry the Oral Tradition served as the means of transmitting what was traditionally believed to be true and sacred in the revelation of Jesus Christ. And it continued and developed in the Church after the apostles died through their legitimate successors. The Church couln’t possibly come to resemble an alien religion, since Jesus promised to be with his bride until the end of time. He sent the Paraclete to guide the Church in all truth until he returns. For this reason he instituted the Episcopate on the foundation of the apostles.

You state that John believed and taught that the “Holy Eucharist” is the actual body and blood of Christ, where do you get that information from?

John 6:48-61

PAX :harp:

 

[Leeann]

Leeann
The same promise that is made to all true and faithful believers in Christ, no matter what “church” or “denomination” they may or may not attend.

Response Good fella
I thought you agreed above that Jesus was addressing his apostles and not general believers.

I did agree that Jesus was addressing his Apostles and not general believers
in relation *to the specific verses *that you quoted…those being:John 16: 12-13 .

My quote that you posted above…about the same promise that is made to all true and faithful,etc…was in response to your post below – I was making reference to those true and faithful believers - your ‘separated brothers’ – in Christ….the ones involved in the 16th century phenomenon, Protestantism.

Good fella
Protestantism is a 16th century phenomenon and has no connection with the historic Christian faith. The early reformers were private individuals who hijacked and warped the Catholic faith and plagarized the Church’s Scriptures molding them to fit their individual theologies while having no divine mandate. Sacred Tradition has been a part of the Church’s deposit of faith since apostolic time, and it was for 1500+ years before Protestantism arose from the great abyss (Rev 9) being a chaos of faith and morals severed from the Church and a central Apostolic teaching authority. The Church’s Tradition certainly isn’t man-made, for Jesus promised his disciples that he wouldn’t leave them orphaned. That he would come to them through the Paraclete and remain with them until the end of time.

As far as the statement with regards to the Protestants and their “chaos of faith and morals severed from the Church and a central Apostolic teaching authority”….come on now…as history has shown over the years and still to this day in time, there was quite a lot of ‘chaos of faith and morals’ apparently left behind and thriving in the Church which “claims” Apostolic teaching authority…so what relevance does that statement have to do with anything?

As to the Catholic Church’s Tradition not being man-made……based on the promise that Jesus gave to his Apostles in John 16……any “tradition” that the Apostles were going to pass on, WERE passed on later WHEN they established those very early church’s. That is why they exhorted the early believers to hold fast to the traditions that HAD already been taught to them. No new traditions were to be “developed” later on.

**2 Thessalonians 2:14 (Duoay Rheims) **
14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

Colossians 2 : 6 -9

6 As therefore you have received Jesus Christ the Lord, walk ye in him; 7 Rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith, as also you have learned, abounding in him in thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ: 9 **For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally; 10 And you are filled in him, who is the head of all principality and power: **

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
And of course by the Catholic Church’s teaching anyway – Mary was already conceived sinless, wasn’t she…if so……her “fiat” was a given.

response guanophore

Clearly not! Eve was created without sin, and she chose to spurn God’s plan for her life.

I was referring to the Catholic teaching of the immaculate conception….also Good fella’s comments further on….

Good fella
If Mary had ever fallen from God’s grace in like manner of the old Eve, then God’s wise scheme would have come to ruin. But God chose Mary to be the mother of his Only-begotten Son, for he knew that the woman he would fashion without any stain of sin on her soul would be constant in faith throughout her entire life.__________________