Prayer of the faithful question

[victrolatim]

In my visits to different churches lately, I have discovered many nuances and styles of presenting the liturgy. Today I encountered something I had never before experienced. When it came time for the Prayer of the Faithful, the priest read a few petitions (with the response “Lord, hear our prayer”), then individuals in the congregation shouted their intentions, followed each time by the response “Lord, hear our prayer”. Is this something new with the new revisions to the GIRM? It kind of took me off guard.

 

[FrDavid96]

That is not how the petitions (whatever name we call them) are done in the Mass.

It’s just one more example of priests ignoring the Church’s liturgical norms.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

It may not be “by the book,” but I’ve experienced this in a number of places, especially weekday/smaller Masses.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

That is not how the petitions (whatever name we call them) are done in the Mass.

It’s just one more example of priests ignoring the Church’s liturgical norms.

Oh but Father, as the priest at my territorial parish tells me, “We’re in to active participation! Ignore the front pages in the song book and participate” (of course he ad libs the entire Mass and omits the penitential rite, Gloria, and Creed regularly. When we had a visiting priest come one Sunday and he actually INCLUDED the above, most people in the congregation couldn’t even find the words to read along, and certainly didn’t know them through regular use!)

If only priests who, with the best intentions in the world to make things ‘special’ for their flocks, knew how much damage they caused with their tampering with the liturgy, I’m sure they would want to do the right thing. . .but so many do not seem to know. . .or care. . .

 

[Usige]

Our parish used to do this until about 3 or 4 years ago. Things started getting way too political with prayer and counter prayer. The pastor finally told the “worship committee” that he didn’t care if it was the tradition of the parish, we have a book for prayer intentions, and individual intentions should be inscribed there. The prayers of the faithful are now much less stressful.

 

[victrolatim]

I didn’t think it was permitted, but wasn’t sure. I could definitely see how doing that could prolong the mass unnecessarily.

 

[victrolatim]

Thanks for the GIRM excerpt. I try to research these things instead of automatically jumping to the conclusion that it is illicit. When it says “one of the lay faithful” it means from the ambo, correct?

 

[brad90956]

I was at Church a few months ago. Our regular priest was out of town so a retired priest said the Mass. After the petitions were read, the priest asked the congregation if there was anything else we needed to pray for. A few people mentioned loved ones who were sick or who had died. One lady said, “to stop abortion”. This was the first time I ever saw/heard this at Mass, but I didn’t mind. I actually thought it was quite nice.

 

[Usige]

Thanks for the GIRM excerpt. I try to research these things instead of automatically jumping to the conclusion that it is illicit. When it says “one of the lay faithful” it means from the ambo, correct?

Yes. The intent is for one person to proclaim the petitions from a worth place and the assembly to respond or pray in silence. It is not intended for random intentions to be called from the pews.

 

[InThePew]

In all things context. First of all, the GIRM sets out guidelines (not rules) for the nature of the prayers and secondly, it provides guidelines for the manner in which they are to be announced. The first part is arguably more important since only the first deals with the content of the prayers. So looking at the second part, note that the words “another suitable place” give a fair amount of leeway to individual celebrants to decide what is suitable in order to allow for the effectively endless variety of local circumstances. Having said that, the determination of whether or not a place is suitable needs to take into account the first part of the paragraph - in other words, the second part should support the first. So, other than in very small congregations, allowing anyone in the congregation to express spontaneous prayers is not going to be compatible with how the prayers should be, nor are the prayers themselves likely to be this way. Again though, context matters - this can work very effectively although in most cases the opposite is more likely to be true. What’s required however is a careful consideration of the context rather than a blanket application of a rule for each and every occasion.

 

[Phemie]

In order to include everyone’s intentions we have a book at the entrance to the nave in which you can write down your intention. Then at the end of the petitions we include “and for all the intentions entered in our book, we pray to the Lord.”

Having intentions called out by the congregation leaves the door wide open to asking for things that are totally opposed to Church teachings and then what do you do/say???

 

[FrDavid96]

I was at Church a few months ago. Our regular priest was out of town so a retired priest said the Mass. After the petitions were read, the priest asked the congregation if there was anything else we needed to pray for. A few people mentioned loved ones who were sick or who had died. One lady said, “to stop abortion”. This was the first time I ever saw/heard this at Mass, but I didn’t mind. I actually thought it was quite nice.

The time to do that is before the Mass starts.

It’s not appropriate (nor is it licit) to do it during the petitions.

 

[FrDavid96]

In order to include everyone’s intentions we have a book at the entrance to the nave in which you can write down your intention. Then at the end of the petitions we include “and for all the intentions entered in our book, we pray to the Lord.”

Having intentions called out by the congregation leaves the door wide open to asking for things that are totally opposed to Church teachings and then what do you do/say???

The other problem is that this sort of thing turns into “the six o’clock news” where people scramble to announce everything they’ve heard both locally and globally.

This was done when I was an undergrad. Once all the real petitions were finished, a seemingly endless litany of “for a private intention” would go on and on and on…

 

[MarkInOregon]

That is not how the petitions (whatever name we call them) are done in the Mass.

It’s just one more example of priests ignoring the Church’s liturgical norms.

Father,

I know this is true for Sunday Mass – is it also true for a weekday Mass or doe the weekday Mass have more latitude.

Thank you.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[bardegaulois]

Father,

I know this is true for Sunday Mass – is it also true for a weekday Mass or doe the weekday Mass have more latitude.

Thank you.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Norms are norms, whether for Sunday Masses, weekday Masses, votive Masses, funeral Masses, nuptial Masses–whatever.

 

[InThePew]

Norms are norms, whether for Sunday Masses, weekday Masses, votive Masses, funeral Masses, nuptial Masses–whatever.

Norms are a sort of “best practice” guide but they’re not there to be applied as inflexible rules. sometimes it can be appropriate (and even necessary) to vary (or even abandon) the norms according to particular circumstances. I’m not saying that this should be seen as some sort of invitation to “do what you feel like” - norms are important and should be respected. However, what’s important is that people (priests and faithful alike) know what the norms are and what the intention underlying them is in order to understand how best to apply them in any particular circumstance. So, for example, the approach to the Prayers of the Faithful for a nuptial mass would be very different from that for a requiem mass, or for a weekday mass. Put simply: context is everything!

 

[FrDavid96]

Norms are a sort of “best practice” guide but they’re not there to be applied as inflexible rules. sometimes it can be appropriate (and even necessary) to vary (or even abandon) the norms according to particular circumstances. I’m not saying that this should be seen as some sort of invitation to “do what you feel like” - norms are important and should be respected. However, what’s important is that people (priests and faithful alike) know what the norms are and what the intention underlying them is in order to understand how best to apply them in any particular circumstance. So, for example, the approach to the Prayers of the Faithful for a nuptial mass would be very different from that for a requiem mass, or for a weekday mass. Put simply: context is everything!

No, “inflexible rules” is precisely what they are*.

The liturgical norms allow for variations, but unless a variation is provided in the norms themselves, then it is not acceptable.

There is no difference, none whatsoever, in how the petitions are done at a funeral Mass versus a nuptial Mass. The wording will be different, but the method is the same–exactly what is printed in the Roman Missal.

There is no excuse for what the OP describes in the original question. There’s no justification for it, and there’s no excuse for doing it. Context is completely irrelevant.

---

*I’m not talking about the kind of ridiculous scenarios that people like to throw around as “examples” here on CAF such as “if a piano falls from a cargo plane and crashes through the roof of the church, and breaks both of the priest’s arms, then he can be seated while the laity distribute Communion”

 

[FrDavid96]

Father,

I know this is true for Sunday Mass – is it also true for a weekday Mass or doe the weekday Mass have more latitude.

Thank you.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

It’s as bardegaulois posted a few minutes ago. The norms are the same for every Mass.

The only time there would be an exception would be if the entire Prayer of the Faithful (Intercessions, Petitions, etc.) is omitted or moved for some reason, such as at the Easter Vigil. However I know that’s not what you’re asking. The norms are the same for Sundays and weekdays.

 

[MarkInOregon]

It’s as bardegaulois posted a few minutes ago. The norms are the same for every Mass.

The only time there would be an exception would be if the entire Prayer of the Faithful (Intercessions, Petitions, etc.) is omitted or moved for some reason, such as at the Easter Vigil. However I know that’s not what you’re asking. The norms are the same for Sundays and weekdays.

Thank you Father,

I have a follow-up question. How are we defining norms? It is my understanding that on weekdays we normally have two readings, omit the Gloria and omit the Creed. These are three differences that come to mind–and to my way of thinking are different norms for the week day Mass vs. the Sunday Mass. Please correct my ignorance because it seems the norm for Sunday --is three readings, the Gloria and the Creed but the norm for weekdays is-- two readings, no Gloria, and no Creed. Are these not considered norms? I’m confused here.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[FrDavid96]

Thank you Father,

I have a follow-up question. How are we defining norms? It is my understanding that on weekdays we normally have two readings, omit the Gloria and omit the Creed. These are three differences that come to mind–and to my way of thinking are different norms for the week day Mass vs. the Sunday Mass. Please correct my ignorance because it seems the norm for Sunday --is three readings, the Gloria and the Creed but the norm for weekdays is-- two readings, no Gloria, and no Creed. Are these not considered norms? I’m confused here.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

The word “norms” is just a synonym for “rules.” We simply tend to use the word norms in a liturgical context. Sometimes we might call them rubrics (but that word technically only applies to a norm that’s actually printed within the liturgical text using red letters because rubric comes from a word meaning red ink, but I digress…)

There are different norms/rules for Sundays and weekdays. They are just as you described–more is done on a Sunday.

Makes sense now?