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Spirithound
Guest
Parish Bulletin:
Oh my…this was in the parish bulletin this week. Help? Proper course of action? Thanks.
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puzzleannie
Guest
did the person who proposed this class happen to note what good king David was wearing at the time he was moved to praise God in this way?
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Spirithound
Guest
Couldn’t say. I did not have the fortune to be part of that meeting. But…what’s an ephod?
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benedictgal
Guest
An ephod is a tiny little apron. Evidently David wore that and nothing else.
I hope that they will not be doing this little performance during Mass and using David’s little prance as justification. David did not do this during the official cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel as dictated by God to Moses. This was something outside Ancient Israel’s cultic norms.
This does not sound like a good thing.
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Cluny
Guest
There are already quite a few sacred movements in the various Catholic traditions.
They include the Sign of the Cross, bowing, genuflecting, kneeling, and prostrating.
They include the Sign of the Cross, bowing, genuflecting, kneeling, and prostrating.
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basenji
Guest
:: thumping my chest in solemn (and clad) approval ::
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benedictgal
Guest
I don’t think that these sacred movements are what they have in mind for this class.
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FrDavid96
Guest
No matter the quantity of cosmetic applied to this peccary, it’s still liturgical dance.
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EvelynEVF
Guest
The Eastern Churches have some movements traditionally associated with prayer, but they are done privately, not in liturgy!
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japhy
Guest
What about that head-shoulders-knees-and-toes thing they do when venerating an icon?
(No offense meant by that, just a harmless joke. For those who don’t know what I’m talking about – and that almost includes me on this one – some Eastern Christians (Catholic and Orthodox alike) make the Sign of the Cross and then follow it by bowing down and touching the ground. It’s an “abbreviated prostration”.)
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Cluny
Guest
It’s not an “abbreviated prostration” (like the double genuflection in the Latin rite).What about that head-shoulders-knees-and-toes thing they do when venerating an icon?
(No offense meant by that, just a harmless joke. For those who don’t know what I’m talking about – and that almost includes me on this one – some Eastern Christians (Catholic and Orthodox alike) make the Sign of the Cross and then follow it by bowing down and touching the ground. It’s an “abbreviated prostration”.)
It’s an entirely different posture, called the metanoia or metany.
And there are no “sacred movement” done in private prayer that are not done publicly in the Byzantine tradition.
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EvelynEVF
Guest
Well, I have a good friend with a theology degree who is an Orthodox convert, and she tells me that in their monastic tradition are movements set to private prayer which may look like yoga to some. Regular folks are strongly discouraged from the practice, and it is considered to definitely require spiritual direction.
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EvelynEVF
Guest
A clarification: My friend was describing an Orthodox ascetic practice called hesychasm, which involves praying in a particular sitting posture with chin tightly against chest, looking downward, and using specific breathing patterns. I think it would be very easy for an American to mistake this for yoga, but there would be no confusing it with liturgical dance!
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EasterJoy
Guest
There is nothing wrong with dancing while one prays, any more than there is something wrong with a non-cleric like St. Francis preaching. St. Francis probably danced around in meadows to pray, too. There are women who are Doctors of the Church, even though only clergy may preach homilies at Mass, because there is somewhere other than within the Mass to learn our faith. Just so, there are allowed ways to pray and dance at the same time–that is, not at Mass.
It is like I tell the children when I explain behavior that is reverent inside a church: God gave us a whole world for prayer that needs a gym or a stage or an open field to be expressed. That kind of prayer isn’t bad. Just don’t do that in church, let alone at Mass. It isn’t in the rubrics, and there is a reason for that, too.
It would be a good idea to explain to the kids that there is a real difference between private prayer and liturgy. After all, sex within marriage is a very good thing, a duty, even, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t boundaries on where and how it is expressed. Private revelations and private prayers are like that, too, sacred movement or not. These are the kinds of boundaries that kids of the age in question are old enough to learn. It is worth making sure that the instructors are well-convinced of the prudence of such boundaries, too, however, before they’re allowed to teach such a class to other laypeople. If they don’t get that, it is better to go without the class, too.
It is like I tell the children when I explain behavior that is reverent inside a church: God gave us a whole world for prayer that needs a gym or a stage or an open field to be expressed. That kind of prayer isn’t bad. Just don’t do that in church, let alone at Mass. It isn’t in the rubrics, and there is a reason for that, too.
It would be a good idea to explain to the kids that there is a real difference between private prayer and liturgy. After all, sex within marriage is a very good thing, a duty, even, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t boundaries on where and how it is expressed. Private revelations and private prayers are like that, too, sacred movement or not. These are the kinds of boundaries that kids of the age in question are old enough to learn. It is worth making sure that the instructors are well-convinced of the prudence of such boundaries, too, however, before they’re allowed to teach such a class to other laypeople. If they don’t get that, it is better to go without the class, too.
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EvelynEVF
Guest
That’s well put. I’m trying to figure out how to express myself politely, here. I guess I wonder sometimes if some people think that all there is to Church is Mass, and so if they want something new or interesting, they think they should put it into Mass. They don’t realize that there is a whole world of spirituality out there, that goes on outside of Mass.
I see this when our priest is absent occasionally during the week, and nobody shows up to daily Mass, because it is then “only” the Liturgy of the Hours. Maybe the puppeteers and dancers think that nobody will come share this thing that they love, unless it is done during a weekend Mass so everybody will see.
Back when I was a Baptist, Sunday mornings were regular church, Sunday evenings were teaching/preaching on a particular theme, like a giant lecture class (though the pastor was the best preacher I’ve ever known, so it was not the torture it sounds like!), and Wednesday nights were for everything else.
I see this when our priest is absent occasionally during the week, and nobody shows up to daily Mass, because it is then “only” the Liturgy of the Hours. Maybe the puppeteers and dancers think that nobody will come share this thing that they love, unless it is done during a weekend Mass so everybody will see.
Back when I was a Baptist, Sunday mornings were regular church, Sunday evenings were teaching/preaching on a particular theme, like a giant lecture class (though the pastor was the best preacher I’ve ever known, so it was not the torture it sounds like!), and Wednesday nights were for everything else.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Alas, we are in times when people schedule so much that they chafe at gathering even for the time required to meet their absolute minimum obligation.
Well, if your pastor is not against sacred dance, except where it doesn’t belong, maybe he can combine encouraging the parish to attend any public performance the dancers may have with the reminder there is more to the spiritual life than meeting the most bare requirements of the Church’s precepts; that we ought to be liberally injecting and experiencing a spirtual sensibility in the fine arts, too.
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EvelynEVF
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My pastor is way too orthodox for dancers or puppets! I was just lifting those as examples from the previous posters.
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EasterJoy
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Well, if the OP’s pastor is open to sacred dance, there is a way to give the dancers some place to perform without letting them do it during Mass. I’ve also seen parishes where the dance is permitted prior to the start of Mass and after the dismissal, which is at least not during the Mass itself. That is dancing pretty close to the line, pardon the pun, and I’d have to ask someone with expertise which side of the line that’s on. Even without consideration to what the rubrics allow, though, I think that even the dance would be better served if it were performed in a venue in which the point of the gathering was the dance.
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