Prayer to Mary...but not for intersession?

[kedera]

Now, I know that there are several threads discussion Intersessory prayer to Saints, but they all seem to be busy, and I have a more specific issue. I am not entirely sure where this came from, but I have not reason to believe it is false. I am considering conversion, and trying to understand Catholic POV’s. It’s been my, accepted, understanding that prayer to Mary as well as other Saints, asks for intersession. This prayer to me seems to contradict that, and is very confusing If anyone could shed some light as to what this is about, I would greatly appreciate it!

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

 

[1ke]

What about this confuses you?

 

[kedera]

I doesn’t seem to ask for intersession, except for the part about Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus…The rest seems to ask for Mary to act on her own. The, Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life part, throws me. This isn’t intersession.

 

[djrakowski]

I can understand your objection, since I was once where you are now in the discernment process. And to be perfectly honest, I’m still a bit uncomfortable with the language of this prayer. In my opinion, it seems excessive, but I’m willing to concede that I may not be understanding it in the context John Paul II intended it.

But, I also wouldn’t get too hung up on a private devotional prayer like this one. No Catholic is bound to recite such prayers, and if you’re uncomfortable with it (as I am), then you’d be perfectly justified in not including it along with your other private devotions.

However, I think the key to this prayer could be found in this line: “Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.” I’ve often heard it said that all true Marian devotions point to Jesus.

And yet, I’m having trouble understanding how the following isn’t excessive: “Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life. Replace it with yourself.”

Perhaps someone with more experience in Marian devotions could shed some light on this for us?

 

[1ke]

I doesn’t seem to ask for intersession, except for the part about Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus…The rest seems to ask for Mary to act on her own. The, Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life part, throws me. This isn’t intersession.

The problem is, you are taking it literally. It’s not meant literally.

JPII was not praying for Mary to literally possess him. What this means is that he wants to imitate her virtues and foster them in his own soul-- he wants to be like Mary. We should all want to be like Mary-- she was the first and greatest disciple.

 

[kedera]

No more takers??? I like assistance…

 

[water]

No more takers??? I like assistance…

Hi kedera and welcome to CAF.

You only posted 5 hours ago! Don’t be sad if there are no many repsonding to your post yet.

First point:
Pope JP II had such a deep devotion to Virgin Mary; however, this doesn’t mean he put Her above God. In his prayer, I could see that whatever he wanted to do or become, he wanted to do with Virgin Mary.

Who is God’s finest creature if it is not Virgin Mary?
Who is God’s most blessing person if it is not Virgin Mary?

Now, does anyone here want to be this finest/most blessing person? - Pope JP did, and this reveils in his prayer.

Replace it with yourself.

Second point:
Have you ever seen anyone performing a miracle? or you only read from the Bible? If Jesus allows the apostles and some people nowaday to perform mircacle so that people will believe in him, then how could He deny Virgin Mary do something while She is in Heaven.

Whatever She does is given by God and Her purpose of doing it is to bring people to Jesus. Her intercession is given by God in whichever way God wants.

Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.

 

[kaycee]

I can understand your objection, since I was once where you are now in the discernment process. And to be perfectly honest, I’m still a bit uncomfortable with the language of this prayer. In my opinion, it seems excessive, but I’m willing to concede that I may not be understanding it in the context John Paul II intended it.

But, I also wouldn’t get too hung up on a private devotional prayer like this one. No Catholic is bound to recite such prayers, and if you’re uncomfortable with it (as I am), then you’d be perfectly justified in not including it along with your other private devotions.

Why are all the “excessive” prayers to Mary not addressed by the magisterium or Pope?

It appears that they do, indeed approve of these "excessive prayers to Mary.

 

[kaycee]

Second point:
Have you ever seen anyone performing a miracle? or you only read from the Bible? If Jesus allows the apostles and some people nowaday to perform mircacle so that people will believe in him, then how could He deny Virgin Mary do something while She is in Heaven.

We know Jesus let the apostles perform miracles to authenticate the Gospel. Jesus did not allow Mary to perform miracles on earth. Why would she be allowed to do miracles now? How do you know she can perform miracles now?

 

[water]

We know Jesus let the apostles perform miracles to authenticate the Gospel. Jesus did not allow Mary to perform miracles on earth. Why would she be allowed to do miracles now?

What about my first point? Do you agree?

Based on what do you know for sure what she can’t do in Heaven? Are you limiting God’s power to earth only?

How do you know she can perform miracles now?

You forgot to include very important part of my post:

Whatever She does is given by God and Her purpose of doing it is to bring people to Jesus. Her intercession is given by God in whichever way God wants.

Since you base on the Bible, does the Bible say Jesus prevent her from doing miracle on earth as well as in Heaven?

How do I know she hears me?

• through my prayers to her being granted.
• the miracles in Fatima and Lourde.
• through her great intercessions being testified by many Catholics.
• through the powerful intercessions of many Saints.

 

[Ceil-1]

We know Jesus let the apostles perform miracles to authenticate the Gospel. Jesus did not allow Mary to perform miracles on earth. Why would she be allowed to do miracles now? How do you know she can perform miracles now?

Jesus promised better miracles than His own to his disciples. Was she not His first? How do we know what, if any miracles she performed on earth. We weren’t following her around. Her perfect humility probably made her perform miracles on the sly.

The concept of the role of Mary is tied into the concept of the Church itself which is symbolized through Mary who conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and “brought forth” the savior. She nurtured Him and served Him in His ministry and afterward did the same with the early members of the Church.

In heaven she is fully glorified and lives out the role God gave her, the same way we will and the same way all the saints do. Did you think we sit up there and play harps?

Ask the Lord to show you His mother. Her example and her intercession assist us in our efforts to please Him and transform ourselves into His image. No one has done that better than she.
Don’t forget that we enter into His mysteries when we are brought into the Church and begin partaking of His Body and Blood. Insomuch as we live out this reality, we will be glorified with Him.

 

[Conciliar]

Why are all the “excessive” prayers to Mary not addressed by the magisterium or Pope?

It appears that they do, indeed approve of these "excessive prayers to Mary.

Hi kaycee. You are touching on what I think is an important point that Kedera should consider… BTW, the Magisterium has addressed excesses and distortions that sometimes make their way into Marian devotion.

Prayers of this sort are not intended to be self-contained lessons on Marian catechesis. They shouldn’t be read as such. Rather a prayer like this, must be read in the light, or within the confines so to speak, of authentic Catholic doctrine. The wording presupposes, in a sense, as much.

I know this answer is likely not such that you will find the words in that prayer more acceptable, but for the time being, just realize that even though JPII wrote it, the prayer is not meant to teach doctrine. That can be found in many other places.

Hope this helps.

 

[Sam88]

As a convert, I can understand kedera’s uneasiness. Certain aspects of the prayer are not how I would express myself, but I think the key to understanding such expressions is to remember that Mary is not only intercessor, but model. As the first follower of Christ, and the most perfectly devoted follower, she is the example of what we should be. All of the saints are examples we can usefully imitate, but Mary is most specially so. Thus we would do well to adore and contemplate as did Mary, to hold firmly to faith, humility, and obedience as did Mary, etc. I would interpret this prayer as a petition to be taught and assisted in doing this.

 

[1ke]

Why are all the “excessive” prayers to Mary not addressed by the magisterium or Pope?

It appears that they do, indeed approve of these "excessive prayers to Mary.

There is nothing to address.

There is no such thing as excessive prayer-- to God, Mary, or any other Saint. Prayer is always efficacious and we can never pray too much.

The problem is not that any prayer in the Catholic tradition is excessive, but that you lack a full relationship with the entire Communion of Saints-- one of the great gifts God has given to his Church-- and therefore view Catholic prayer as excessive.

Indeed, Protestant prayer can be viewed as deficient since it lacks the Communion of Saints.

 

[kedera]

Hi kaycee. You are touching on what I think is an important point that Kedera should consider… BTW, the Magisterium has addressed excesses and distortions that sometimes make their way into Marian devotion.

Prayers of this sort are not intended to be self-contained lessons on Marian catechesis. They shouldn’t be read as such. Rather a prayer like this, must be read in the light, or within the confines so to speak, of authentic Catholic doctrine. The wording presupposes, in a sense, as much.

I know this answer is likely not such that you will find the words in that prayer more acceptable, but for the time being, just realize that even though JPII wrote it, the prayer is not meant to teach doctrine. That can be found in many other places.

Hope this helps.

Yes Conciliar, this helps. I’m still trying to see things, from a sincere Catholic perspective, but have some difficulty NOT using a one sided mind when looking at certain Catholic things. It’s a process…

 

[1ke]

We know Jesus let the apostles perform miracles to authenticate the Gospel. Jesus did not allow Mary to perform miracles on earth.

You do not know this to be a fact.

Not every miracle performed by Jesus is in the Bible. Not every miracle performed by the Apostles is in the Bible.

Therefore, you cannot say definitively that **no **miracles occurred at Mary’s behest while she was alive.

Why would she be allowed to do miracles now?

Because she’s in Heaven and God allows her to.

How do you know she can perform miracles now?

How do you know she can’t?

I know she can because Scripture and Tradition both indicate that the Saints intercessions are powerful. We know the Saints are at the throne of the Lamb interceding for us. We know God hears prayers and performs miracles even to this day.

Do you deny God performs miracles?

 

[Conciliar]

Yes Conciliar, this helps. I’m still trying to see things, from a sincere Catholic perspective, but have some difficulty NOT using a one sided mind when looking at certain Catholic things. It’s a process…

I’m glad. Keep at it! A thought… Catholics are so very blessed to have the Church’s sacred teaching office as a reliable guide in matters of faith and morals. That is why we call the Church “Holy Mother.”

Just be careful at this point in your journey to view all “Catholic things” for what they truly are. A prayer is a prayer. An early Church Father or a Saint’s writings are still usually just his or her thoughts, expressed in his or her own words…

The best of all things, though, are the doctrines as presented for our belief by the Magisterium. These are the rock solid things we hold true, and probably that which will help you to see and evaluate what’s what.

Lastly, you are obviously humble enough to ask sincere questions. This will take you a long way. God bless you.

 

[kaycee]

What about my first point? Do you agree?
First point:
Pope JP II had such a deep devotion to Virgin Mary; however, this doesn’t mean he put Her above God. In his prayer, I could see that whatever he wanted to do or become, he wanted to do with Virgin Mary.

Who is God’s finest creature if it is not Virgin Mary?
Who is God’s most blessing person if it is not Virgin Mary??

John the Baptist, Lu 7:28 - I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

John (disciple whom Jesus loved), David(a man after God’s own heart) Peter, Paul, etc…

Based on what do you know for sure what she can’t do in Heaven?

I do not believe anyone can know. Paul WAS there but was not allowed to speak of heaven. Do you have an inside contact in heaven to claim what she can do?

You forgot to include very important part of my post:

Since you base on the Bible, does the Bible say Jesus prevent her from doing miracle on earth as well as in Heaven?

Jesus does not say Barney the purple dinosaur can’t do miracles either. So?

How do I know she hears me?

• through my prayers to her being granted.
• the miracles in Fatima and Lourde.
• through her great intercessions being testified by many Catholics.
• through the powerful intercessions of many Saints.

Pagans also believe their “gods” grant intercession and miracles too.

2 Cor 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness

 

[kaycee]

You do not know this to be a fact.

Not every miracle performed by Jesus is in the Bible. Not every miracle performed by the Apostles is in the Bible.

Therefore, you cannot say definitively that **no **miracles occurred at Mary’s behest while she was alive.

Yes, that’s true, the bible does not mention the miracles i perform all the time, either.

Because she’s in Heaven and God allows her to.

Did God tell you this or did Mary?

I know she can because Scripture and Tradition both indicate that the Saints intercessions are powerful. We know the Saints are at the throne of the Lamb interceding for us. We know God hears prayers and performs miracles even to this day.

Do you deny God performs miracles?

Offcourse not, God performs miracles all the time, I dont believe Saints in heaven perform Miracles on earth.

 

[1ke]

Yes, that’s true, the bible does not mention the miracles i perform all the time, either.

You are not the Mother of God

Did God tell you this or did Mary?

Neither God nor Mary have spoken to me audibly.

Scripture, the Church, and basic logic tell me this.

Offcourse not. I dont believe Saints in heaven perform Miracles on earth.

Which is really sad.