Prayer to Saints and the 24 Elders

[Tiny_Montgomery]

A Catholic defense of the practice of prayer to saints invariably discusses Revelation 5:8, which describes 24 elders holding “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

The assumption, when citing this text, is that the 24 elders are saints in heaven, thus demonstrating the heavenly intercession of saints.

But is there a way to clearly establish that these 24 elders are, in fact, saints in heaven, rather than angels?

 

[Veritas41]

Well, for one thing, I’m not aware of angels ever being described as “elders” anywhere else in the Bible. Rev. 8:4 depicts an angel offering prayers of the saints to God. It doesn’t make sense that angels would be described as “elders” doing the very same thing in a different chapter. Also, “elders” as used in James 5:14 refers to humans not angels.

 

[Bishopite]

[Tiny Montgomery;1519060]A Catholic defense of the practice of prayer to saints invariably discusses Revelation 5:8, which describes 24 elders holding “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

The assumption, when citing this text, is that the 24 elders are saints in heaven, thus demonstrating the heavenly intercession of saints.

But is there a way to clearly establish that these 24 elders are, in fact, saints in heaven, rather than angels?

Yes, I am almost positive that the Greek word “elders” (also translated presbyteros) in Rev 5:8 is the same used in James 5:14, and priests are humans and angels were never priests. Also, presbyteros and priest are synonyms (different words that mean the same thing); it’s interesting that here you have two verses in the New Testament that mention priests, this among many other verses give evidence for the Catholic priesthood.

And even if Rev 5:8 said angels instead of saints the whole idea of angels praying for us wouldn’t be accepted by Protestants anyway. Rev 8:5 also gives scriptural proof of the Catholic teaching on the communion of saints. Saint means holy one, or one that is made holy, so it can be a human i.e., St. Francis of Assisi or an angel like St. Michael.

In Zach 1:12 we see an angel of the Lord interceding for Zachariah; both angels and saints intercede for us when we, through prayer, ask them to beseech God on our behalf, therefore, the whole “Catholic” idea of the communion of saints fits right with scripture

 

[levi86]

Well, for one thing, I’m not aware of angels ever being described as “elders” anywhere else in the Bible. Rev. 8:4 depicts an angel offering prayers of the saints to God. It doesn’t make sense that angels would be described as “elders” doing the very same thing in a different chapter. Also, “elders” as used in James 5:14 refers to humans not angels.

Also angles are never depicted as wearing crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Where as humans will reign with Christ

Luke 22
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[levi86]

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Also angles are never depicted as wearing crowns. Where as humans will reign with Christ

Luke 22
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Tiny_Montgomery]

Thanks for those replies.

Does anybody know of the counterarguments that are raised when Catholics rely on Revelation 5:8 to make the case for prayer to saints? I mean counterarguments that specifically address the Catholic understanding of Revelation 5:8, not generic counterarguments opposing prayer to saints like prayer = worship, etc.

And, if so, how to address those counterarguments?

 

[levi86]

Thanks for those replies.

Does anybody know of the counterarguments that are raised when Catholics rely on Revelation 5:8 to make the case for prayer to saints? I mean counterarguments that specifically address the Catholic understanding of Revelation 5:8, not generic counterarguments opposing prayer to saints like prayer = worship, etc.

And, if so, how to address those counterarguments?

Some assert that just because the saints in heaven present prayers to God doesn’t mean that they can hear us.

To me this makes no sense. This would mean that God receives our petitions, gives them to the saints, who in turn give them back to God.

 

[Mystophilus]

Does anybody know of the counterarguments that are raised when Catholics rely on Revelation 5:8 to make the case for prayer to saints? I mean counterarguments that specifically address the Catholic understanding of Revelation 5:8, not generic counterarguments opposing prayer to saints like prayer = worship, etc.

The easiest one would be the fact that the term translated ‘saints’ is 'αγιοι, which is ‘holy people’. As such, it is used throughout the New Testament to refer to living believers, rather than a separate class of the dead and elevated. Thus, were I, not being Catholic, disputing your reading of the passage, I would simply point out that there is no intra-textual reason to read it as being different from the common usage: i.e., the prayers of the saints are the prayers of all of the believers, and not just of ‘saints’ in the most common sense within Catholicism, i.e., patron saints.

And, if so, how to address those counterarguments?

I would advise against directly contradicting it: from a literary perspective, it is the better reading, and it contains something which most Protestants do not consider.

If you want to talk (not argue) with Protestants about the idea of saints, have them read such passages as Luke 16:19-31 and Hebrews 12:1, and ask them whether these passages indicate that the dead are conscious. They could argue that other passages refer to the dead ‘falling asleep’, which is quite true; since they are the ones who (most likely) believe in the literality of the text, you can ask them to reconcile the difference, which they will endeavour to do without contradicting Luke or Hebrews. They might claim that the passage in Luke is merely a parable, but, if it is a parable not based in reality, it is one which has certainly misled a vast number of believers over history, and was, therefore, a very irresponsible thing to have included in the first place. When they affirm that those passages do indicate that the dead are conscious, ask them why a conscious Christian who has gone to be with God would choose not to intercede for those who are left behind.

From there, they are likely to object to the Catholic classification of only some people as being saints. What you can point out there is that, according to the Catechism, all of God’s people are saints, the difference between the Catholic-Orthodox view and the Protestant one being that Protestants tend to forget the believers who are dead. From there, you can discuss the idea of patron saints, and how they are singled out as being people of whose salvation the Church is sure because of the virtue of their lives. Thus, the view of such saints is inclusive, not exclusive: the Church is saying, “We are sure that these people are saved. About other individuals, we do not know, and so we will not claim to know.”

 

[Tiny_Montgomery]

The easiest one would be the fact that the term translated ‘saints’ is 'αγιοι, which is ‘holy people’. As such, it is used throughout the New Testament to refer to living believers, rather than a separate class of the dead and elevated. Thus, were I, not being Catholic, disputing your reading of the passage, I would simply point out that there is no intra-textual reason to read it as being different from the common usage: i.e., the prayers of the saints are the prayers of all of the believers, and not just of ‘saints’ in the most common sense within Catholicism, i.e., patron saints.

well, i agree with you there, i think.

revelation 5:8 speaks of 24 elders “holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

in interpreting this as a catholic, i would agree that the use of the word “saints” here accords with common usage, i.e. all believers, on earth.

the next issue is who are those “elders,” in heaven, lifting up the prayers of the saints to Christ?

based on the comments in this thread, i think one can make a pretty good case that the elders are saints in heaven, i.e., believers who have died and are now with Christ.

i agree that luke 16 and hebrews 12 are very helpful, but if revelation 5:8 can be fairly interpreted in the catholic sense - without forcing the meaning of the text - then it really cinches the catholic position.

to my mind, the key issue is whether it can be established that the word “elders” in revelation 5:8 means saints in heaven. i believe it does, but i’m looking for a really airtight argument in that regard.

thanks for your comments.

 

[Mystophilus]

to my mind, the key issue is whether it can be established that the word “elders” in revelation 5:8 means saints in heaven. i believe it does, but i’m looking for a really airtight argument in that regard.

An airtight argument you will not find, I am afraid: for an argument to be effectively indisputable, it would have to rely upon inescapably logical conclusions based entirely on intra-textual data. As a literature student, I can tell you that such things almost never come along; the difference between mathematics and literature is that they have ‘right answers’, and we have 100 000-word essays trying to persuade others that our answers are plausible.

Further, were the Catholic position so very clear from the text, Protestants, who have been studying the text in microscopic detail for 400 years, are most unlikely to have missed it, and so all the Sola-Scriptura Protestants would have either converted or altered their own doctrine centuries ago. I.e., just because some of us are stupid, do not fall into the trap of assuming that all of us are.

What I can give you is possible support from other texts in the Bible: Hebrews 11 talks about the heroes of the faith, and it describes them, in v.2, as πρεσβυτεροι, which is the Greek word which you are seeing translated in Rev 5:8. This is in accordance with the usage in Matthew 15:2, in which the Pharisees and the scribes ask Jesus why his disciples break the tradition of the elders. This, then, is used to refer to notable, now-dead believers. It is good support, because it is used by two other writers from the C1st; it is not “airtight”, because it is not so-used elsewhere by the author of the Revelation, and that is the point on which a determined disputant will attack it. Should they do so, you can talk about ‘demonstrated contemporary usage’, but they can rebut that with the fact that πρεσβυτερος is used for living elders within a church, and even for anyone who is older than anyone else.

You can see usages of πρεσβυτερος here. Note that that is the KJV, and so it is only translated from the Textus-Receptus: there may be other examples, from the other manuscripts, which did not show up there.

 

[Tiny_Montgomery]

I appreciate your detailed remarks, Mystophilus. That’s very helpful. Thank you.

 

[Chong]

A Catholic defense of the practice of prayer to saints invariably discusses Revelation 5:8, which describes 24 elders holding “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

The assumption, when citing this text, is that the 24 elders are saints in heaven, thus demonstrating the heavenly intercession of saints.

But is there a way to clearly establish that these 24 elders are, in fact, saints in heaven, rather than angels?

Re:5:8: And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints…9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

After Rev 5:8, the 24 elders and the 4 living creatures sing a song whose words mention who they are. They have been redeemed, and shall reign on the earth. This distinguishes them from angels since angels are not redeemed. Also, verse 11 says of millions of angels.
The 4 living creatures are also saying that they have been redeemed, implying they are not angels.
For the 24 elders; the word ‘elder’ refers to a person of advanced age, and initially it was reserved for men only. Elders were the overseers of the churches. In 1Pet 5: 1, we see Peter referring to himself as an elder.
The elders are clothed in white robes (we see the same in Rev. 3:5) implying that they had already overcome. They also have crowns (crown of life is promised in Rev 2:10 ). They are seated with Christ (A promise in Rev.3:21).
The no. 24 is also significant in that it takes us back to a representation like 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles of Jesus.
From the scriptural references, the 24 elders are symbolic, but refer to people who have overcome the world and are reigning with Christ. The aspect of eldership brings about the notion of reigning instead of age. The timing of this event is futuristic instead of past ie, when the revelation was made.
The elders are seated on thrones implying a time when the church will reign with Christ before the end of age.
Rev 20: 6…either had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

With these and many others, I see the 24 elders represent the saints who will take part in the 1st resurrection and will reign with Christ 1000 years.

 

[TimothyH]

The word elder appears 60 times in the New Testament. It always refers to the leaders of the people, respected members of society. It never refers to angels at all.

Peter calls himself an elder.

So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. (1 Peter 5:1)

quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=elders&restrict=New+Testament&size=All

-Tim-

 

[Mintaka]

The usual early Christian interpretation of the 24 elders is that they represent the Twelve Patriarchs (as representatives of the Twelve Tribes) and the Twelve Apostles, thus showing that the old qahal and the new ecclesia are actually one and the same.

So they are saints.

(Oecumenius, who comes along several centuries later, thinks in terms of naming his favorite twelve patriarchs and his favorite twelve individual Christian martyrs, and thinks the Apostles’ twelve thrones for judging the nations are completely different thrones. But that’s pretty fringe-ish… and yet, he still thinks they’re saints.)

Re: angels acting as priests, actually this happens quite a bit in Revelation. Angels swing censers and make offerings and all that, and the angels of the churches stand for their bishops. However, most of these priestly angels in the scenes in Heaven are actually representing Christ, our High Priest; and Christ is both God and Man.

 

[Mintaka]

Re: Rev. 20:6 -

Those who reign with Christ for a thousand years (aka “a really really long time” in Bible-speak, because it’s 10 x 10 x 10) are the saints who have died and gone to Heaven, whether immediately or “saved through fire” of Purgatory. They don’t fear Hell because they’ve already been judged, and they have a part in the first resurrection because they are members of Jesus, who IS the First Resurrection.

The other saints are those who are still alive at the Second Coming, the ones whom Jesus finds not dead in sin.

The “rest of the dead” who don’t live (Rev. 20:5) until the Second Coming, and don’t experience “the first resurrection,” are those dead people who are going to be resurrected only to face the Judgment and find out they are going to “the second death” in Hell. That’s why they are described as not being alive; they are dead in mortal sin.

 

[dmar198]

A Catholic defense of the practice of prayer to saints invariably discusses Revelation 5:8, which describes 24 elders holding “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

The assumption, when citing this text, is that the 24 elders are saints in heaven, thus demonstrating the heavenly intercession of saints.

But is there a way to clearly establish that these 24 elders are, in fact, saints in heaven, rather than angels?

I recommend reading the context, especially verse 9, which seems to identify the elders as being from a variety of races and tongues. That seems to exclude angels.

Also, the word “elder” seems to refer to people with advanced age. But I think angels do not age. Thus, at least to me, it would seem to involve a category mistake to say that the elders are angels.