Prayer to the Blessed Virgin

[historyb]

You bring up some excellent points. There are a large number of Marain and hymns that are troubling. Below is part of a prayer called Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Holy Mary, – Pray for us. (repeat at end of each phrase.)
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honor,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of Heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Virgins,
Queen of all Saints,
Queen conceived without Original Sin,
Queen assumed into Heaven,
Queen of the most holy rosary,
Queen of Peace.

What conclusions would you draw from such a prayer?

This type of prayer certainly elevates Mary above what is indicated in scripture.

Things like this have brothered me too and I’m Catholic.

 

[historyb]

My brothers and sisters in fellowship can most certainly comfort me and console me in love, and vice versa, but my only refuge against sin is Christ.

I like that.

 

[historyb]

Triune Unity asks: “Okay, are you seriously claiming that Mary can save souls?” Yes. Do you know of any reason why she wouldn’t continue to do the work of saving souls since she’s passed from this life? She did, after all, participate in a most unique way in the salvation of all of humanity at the Incarnation of the Word in her womb. Her “yes” to the Lord resounded throughout the Heavens then and her triumphant song has been sung ever since! She began her intercession for souls then and has never ceased. Hail Mary, full of grace…

Peace,

Gail

Mary can not save souls, only Christ can. She may lead to Christ per Catholic thinking but does not save.

 

[iaskquestions]

I don’t believe in intercession to angels

As Catholics, we do believe that angels can intercede for us. That is clearly mentioned in Scripture (not your Scripture though).

“And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I** brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One**; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you. When you did not hesitate to rise and leave your dinner in order to go and lay out the dead, your good deed was not hidden from me, but I was with you. So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.” (Tobit 12:12-15)

So if angels know what we do, they can certainly hear our prayers. And they will surely oblige if we ask them to intercede for us.

 

[iaskquestions]

Things like this have brothered me too and I’m Catholic.

I’m looking into it. Will find an answer pretty soon.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I would think if you became fully united with God you would, no? There are certainly examples of the dead hearing the petitions of those on earth in Scripture…

Acts 9:36-37, 40 In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha…she became sick and died, and her body was washed and placed in an upstairs room…Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

And the Psalmist petitions angels to pray along with him:
Psalm 148:1-2 Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host! (I realize he goes on to ask the oceans and sea creatures to pray with him too, which poetically lends to mean “everyone” praise God with me…and the angels are the only sentient intelligent beings at the beginning of the Psalm)

I understand the point you’re trying to make here, however, to take the passage of Tabitha and apply it to saintly intercession is to eisegete the text beyond recognition.

 

[Peter_J]

That’s because you’re nice and your threads are nice LOL

I don’t believe in intercession to angels, but I do believe that God may send angels to us in response to our prayers to Him. For example, the disciples prayed to the Lord to release Peter from prison and God sent an angel to do that.

I don’t know what “intercession to angels” means, but surely you believe in intercession by angels? What about Zech. 1, 12, where an angel prays: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have mercy on Jerusalem?

 

[Peter_J]

I understand the point you’re trying to make here, however, to take the passage of Tabitha and apply it to saintly intercession is to eisegete the text beyond recognition.

That seemed a little odd to me too.

 

[GailMac]

Well, I reeeeally don’t understand all the angst over intercessory prayers. To deny that folks cannot intercede for us with God is ridiculous. Really folks, the idea of intercessors before God is very ancient. But since there needs to be some Biblical “proofs” given of the value of the intercession mere humans have with God I’ll direct your attention to the story of the Golden Calf and what happened. If you recall, Moses went up Mt. Sinai to be with God and was away. The Isrealites goofed big time by cooking up the Golden Calf to worship! They broke the Commandments right after they were given them! And after all they’d seen, not to mention being rescued from Pharoah! And God got really mad and threatened to destroy them! Moses interceded with God for them and God relented.

All of this is found in the Book of Exodus, Chapter 32. — 7 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Go, get thee down: thy people, which thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, hath sinned. 8 They have quickly strayed from the way which thou didst show them: and they have made to themselves a molten calf, and have adored it, and sacrificing victims to it, have said: These are thy gods, O Israel, that have brought thee out of the land of Egypt. 9 And again the Lord said to Moses: I see that this people is stiffnecked: 10 Let me alone, that my wrath may be kindled against them, and that I may destroy them, and I will make of thee a great nation. 11 But Moses besought the Lord his God, saying: Why, O Lord, is thy indignation enkindled against thy people, whom thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Let not the Egyptians say, I beseech thee: He craftily brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains, and destroy them from the earth: let thy anger cease, and be appeased upon the wickedness of thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou sworest by thy own self, saying: I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven: and this whole land that I have spoken of, I will give to your seed, and you shall possess it for ever: 14 And the Lord was appeased from doing the evil which he had spoken against his people.

Now if Moses can intercede with God why can’t God’s other servants?

Peace,

Gail

 

[GailMac]

Hey there Triune! I think the point that Marco Polo was pointing to was the fact that Tabitha, the woman, heard her name called even after she died! Silly boy!

Peace,

Gail

 

[historyb]

Well, I reeeeally don’t understand all the angst over intercessory prayers. To deny that folks cannot intercede for us with God is ridiculous. Really folks, the idea of intercessors before God is very ancient. But since there needs to be some Biblical “proofs” given of the value of the intercession mere humans have with God I’ll direct your attention to the story of the Golden Calf and what happened. If you recall, Moses went up Mt. Sinai to be with God and was away. The Isrealites goofed big time by cooking up the Golden Calf to worship! They broke the Commandments right after they were given them! And after all they’d seen, not to mention being rescued from Pharoah! And God got really mad and threatened to destroy them! Moses interceded with God for them and God relented.

All of this is found in the Book of Exodus, Chapter 32. — 7 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Go, get thee down: thy people, which thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, hath sinned. 8 They have quickly strayed from the way which thou didst show them: and they have made to themselves a molten calf, and have adored it, and sacrificing victims to it, have said: These are thy gods, O Israel, that have brought thee out of the land of Egypt. 9 And again the Lord said to Moses: I see that this people is stiffnecked: 10 Let me alone, that my wrath may be kindled against them, and that I may destroy them, and I will make of thee a great nation. 11 But Moses besought the Lord his God, saying: Why, O Lord, is thy indignation enkindled against thy people, whom thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Let not the Egyptians say, I beseech thee: He craftily brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains, and destroy them from the earth: let thy anger cease, and be appeased upon the wickedness of thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou sworest by thy own self, saying: I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven: and this whole land that I have spoken of, I will give to your seed, and you shall possess it for ever: 14 And the Lord was appeased from doing the evil which he had spoken against his people.

Now if Moses can intercede with God why can’t God’s other servants?

Peace,

Gail

One thing that fails to show is those in Heaven interceding for us. We all ask people to pray and intercede for us, but if you want to prove we should do it to people in Heaven with Scripture that is what you’ll need.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Hey there Triune! I think the point that Marco Polo was pointing to was the fact that Tabitha, the woman, heard her name called even after she died! Silly boy!

Peace,

Gail

Does the text state that? Clearly, the passage is showing that as a result of Peter’s apostolic authority, he raised her back to life. Nothing more.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I don’t know what “intercession to angels” means, but surely you believe in intercession by angels? What about Zech. 1, 12, where an angel prays: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have mercy on Jerusalem?

I wouldn’t have a problem with that. Angels are independent beings with a free will.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Triune and Historyb - haven’t you heard? God isn’t God of the dead but of the living!

But as has been said before, you are perfectly free to keep right on praying to Jesus, and Jesus only. While you’re at it, pray for me. As for me, I’ll ask my intercessors for help.

Peace,

Gail

 

[historyb]

Dear Triune and Historyb - haven’t you heard? God isn’t God of the dead but of the living!

But as has been said before, you are perfectly free to keep right on praying to Jesus, and Jesus only. While you’re at it, pray for me. As for me, I’ll ask my intercessors for help.

Peace,

Gail

Go ahead, but you have not helped Catholicism

 

[GailMac]

I’m too lazy today to anymore Scripture searches for you guys. So, I thought I’d let someone else do the talking.

Mrs LATAPIE Catherine Known as -CHOUAT of Loubajac (France) Ulnar Paralysis due to traumatic elongation of the brachial plexus for 18 months

Mr. BOURIETTE, Louis Of Lourdes (France) 20 year old injury to the right eye with blindness for 2 years

Mrs. CAZENAVE, Blaisette, (née Soupène) of Lourdes (France)Chemosis or chronic conjunctivis with ectropion for 3 years

Mr. BUSQUET Henri Of Nay (France) Fistular adenitis of the base of the neck (undoubtedly Tubercular) for 15 months

Mr. Bouhort Justin of Lourdes (France) Chronic post-infective malnurtrition with retarded motor development. Diagnosis at the time “consumption.”

Mrs. RIZAN Madeleine of Nay (France) Left hemiplegia for 24 years

Miss MOREAU Marie, of Tartas (France) Major diminution of vision with inflammatory lesions especially of the right eye, progressing over 10 months

Mr. DE RUDDER Pierre, of Jabbeke (Belgium) Ununited fracture of the left leg with pseudarthrosis

Miss DEHANT Joachime of Gesves (Belgium) Ulcer of the right leg with extensive gangrene

Miss SEISSON Elisa, of Rognonas (France) Cardiac hypertrophy with oedema of the lower limbs

Sister EUGENIA, (Marie MABILLE), of Bernay (France) Abscess in the right iliac fossa with vesical and colic fistulae, bilateral phlebitis

Sister Julienne, (Aline BRUYERE) of La Roque (France) Cavitating pulmonary tuberculosis

Sister Josephine-Marie (Anne JOURDAIN) Of Goincourt (France) Pulmonary tuberculosis

Miss CHAGNON Amélie ,(Nun of Sacré Coeur on 25-9-1894) of Poitiers (France) Tubercular osteo-arthritis of the knee and second
metatarsal of the foot

Miss TROUVÉ Clémentine, (Sister AGNES-MARIE) of Rouille (France) Osteo periostitis of the right foot with fistulae.

Miss LEBRANCHU Marie, (Mrs WUIPLIER) of Paris (France) Pulmonary tuberculosis (Koch’s bacillae present in
sputum).

Miss LEMARCHAND Marie, (Mrs AUTHIER) of Caen (France) Pulmonary tuberculosis with ulcers of the face and legs

Miss LESAGE Elise, Of Bucquoy (France) Tubercular osteo-arthritis of knee

Sister MARIE de la PRESENTATION, Sylvanie DELPORTE)
Of Lille (France) Chronic Tubercular gastro-enteritis.

Father CIRETTE, of Beaumontel (France) Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis of spinal cord

Miss HUPRELLEW Aurélie Of St. Martin-le-Noeud (France) Acute pulmonary tuberculosis

Miss BRACHMANN Esther, Of Paris (France) Tubercular peritonitis

Miss TULASNE Jeanne, Of Tours (France) Lumbar Pott’s disease, with neuropathic club foot

Miss MALOT Clementine, Of Gaudechart (France) Pulmonary tuberculosis with haemoptysis

Mrs FRANCOIS Rose (Née LABREEUVOIES), of Paris (France) Fistular lymphangitis of the right arm with enormous oedema.

What I’ve just given the doubting Thomases of this thread is a short list of a few of the miraculous cures of people at a place called Lourdes. It is in France. The Mother of God appeared there and gave a spring of water for the cures of people so their healings would glorify God. The miracles associated with this apparition site continue. May Jesus Christ be praised!

Now, do you really want to disbelieve in Mary’s intercession? I suppose you could, but you wanted some facts!

If you’re interested in visiting the website, lourdes-france.org

Peace,

Gail

 

[historyb]

So your saying Mary did the miracles? I know many miracles and have have some myself just praying to Christ alone. Even 2 happened to me personally where no prayer took place, miracles do not prove the intercession of someone else in Heaven.

By the lest you think different for now I am Catholic, if you want to mount a defense and an apology for what we believe than your going to need to do better. Meet them where they are, not we you want them to be.

 

[tGette]

So your saying Mary did the miracles? I know many miracles and have have some myself just praying to Christ alone. Even 2 happened to me personally where no prayer took place, miracles do not prove the intercession of someone else in Heaven.

By the lest you think different for now I am Catholic, if you want to mount a defense and an apology for what we believe than your going to need to do better. Meet them where they are, not we you want them to be.

I like you historyb! LOL!
Excellent point!

 

[TriuneUnity]

So your saying Mary did the miracles? I know many miracles and have have some myself just praying to Christ alone. Even 2 happened to me personally where no prayer took place, miracles do not prove the intercession of someone else in Heaven.

By the lest you think different for now I am Catholic, if you want to mount a defense and an apology for what we believe than your going to need to do better. Meet them where they are, not we you want them to be.

You’re incredibly refreshing, history. God bless you.

 

[Bwsherman]

One thing that fails to show is those in Heaven interceding for us. We all ask people to pray and intercede for us, but if you want to prove we should do it to people in Heaven with Scripture that is what you’ll need.

Historyb,

Have you ever read Revelation 5:8 or 8:3-4 both attest to how the saints pray unceasingly for us offering incense up?

There is also that spot in St. Paul’s letter to the Hebrews 12:1 where he mentions that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.

I am not sure what exactly your problem with the Church’ s teaching is, but all of these verses attest to the intercession that the saints can offer to us. Other than this, as a Catholic you have an almost unlimited supply of knowledge about the intercession of the saints and especially our Lady who is placed above all of the saints as Queen of heaven.