Prayer to the Blessed Virgin

[historyb]

That’s what GailMac should have done, thank you.

 

[historyb]

Historyb,

Have you ever read Revelation 5:8 or 8:3-4 both attest to how the saints pray unceasingly for us offering incense up?

There is also that spot in St. Paul’s letter to the Hebrews 12:1 where he mentions that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.

I am not sure what exactly your problem with the Church’ s teaching is, but all of these verses attest to the intercession that the saints can offer to us. Other than this, as a Catholic you have an almost unlimited supply of knowledge about the intercession of the saints and especially our Lady who is placed above all of the saints as Queen of heaven.

Now to cut off the tide I know is coming, I was a Protestant most of my life and I am going to play Protestant advocate here, no disrespect is meant.

And when he took the scroll, the four living beings and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they held gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

Rev 5:8

Now here I could argue that it does not show how the saints offer prayers for us, but that the saints hold the bowls that have the prayers that we prayed in them

and

Then another angel with a gold incense burner came and stood at the altar. And a great amount of incense was given to him to mix with the prayers of God’s people as an offering on the gold altar before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, mixed with the prayers of God’s holy people, ascended up to God from the altar where the angel had poured them out.

Revelation 8:3-4

Now here I’m not sure what your trying to show because it mentions nothing about saints praying.

and the last and I heard this before

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us.

This talks or could talk about our fellow Christians.

All of these refutations I have heard and used in the past. Here is were we have to face the fact that prayers to saints are not in the Scriptures, but handed down through Holy Tradition.

 

[Bwsherman]

Now to cut off the tide I know is coming, I was a Protestant most of my life and I am going to play Protestant advocate here, no disrespect is meant.

Rev 5:8

Now here I could argue that it does not show how the saints offer prayers for us, but that the saints hold the bowls that have the prayers that we prayed in them

and

Revelation 8:3-4

Now here I’m not sure what your trying to show because it mentions nothing about saints praying.

and the last and I heard this before

This talks or could talk about our fellow Christians.

All of these refutations I have heard and used in the past. Here is were we have to face the fact that prayers to saints are not in the Scriptures, but handed down through Holy Tradition.

I disagree that it is not found in scripture and again as a Catholic you have the Magisterium, ECF’s and others to offer assitance in this, but in regards to Rev. 8:3-4, it depends on your translation.
I utilize the Douay-Rheims edition which is a translation from the Vulgate and it reads:

"And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censor: and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God.

And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel."

You might want to take a look at the Catechism section 101-141 to get the Church’s position in regards to the reading of Sacred Scripture. This might help you in the future with regards to the interpretation of scripture. For us as Catholics it is a three-fold process.

 

[historyb]

When we are dealing with the Protestant understanding, it can be very different. Can the idea of pray to saints be seen in the Bible? From a Catholic Perspective: Yes from a Protestant Perspective No and some would added if it does, it very loosely does.

Do you see the problem here? It is almost impossible to prove some things over other things. It becomes a conundrum at times and at others an impediment to dialog.

Of course it becomes academic for Catholics because as a Catholic we are required to believe everything the Church teaches

 

[MarcoPolo]

I understand the point you’re trying to make here, however, to take the passage of Tabitha and apply it to saintly intercession is to eisegete the text beyond recognition.

I did not eisegete the passage to represent saintly intercession. I exegeted it to show that the dead are aware of us.

 

[Bwsherman]

When we are dealing with the Protestant understanding, it can be very different. Can the idea of pray to saints be seen in the Bible? From a Catholic Perspective: Yes from a Protestant Perspective No and some would added if it does, it very loosely does.

Do you see the problem here? It is almost impossible to prove some things over other things. It becomes a conundrum at times and at others an impediment to dialog.

Of course it becomes academic for Catholics because as a Catholic we are required to believe everything the Church teaches

It really just comes down to the interpretation of scripture. And as far as protestants are concerned, they do not have any sort of universal authority to turn to work out their differences. There are protestant sects that believe in the intercession of the saints and those that do not, there are those that believe in the baptism of infants and there are those that do not…I could go on, but I think you understand my point here. So, in as much as we can, we Roman Catholics point to what has been show through the Church and down through the ages as what is revealed truth.

Also, we are not required to believe anything. That sort of legalistic thinking distorts who the Church is and that is our Mother. And as such, her ‘rules’ are not meant as obstructions to her children. They are in place most often to save us from pain and confusion that results from relying on our own intellect.

Sorry if that was a bit preachy, but I love the Church very much for what she does for me and my family and I will contest any person, Catholic or not, who I feel is misrepresenting (not rudely of course) who she is. God bless!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Members of the Body of Christ in heaven are not effectively severed from us. The Body is not divided. We can ask them for intercession just as we can our neighbor.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I did not eisegete the passage to represent saintly intercession. I exegeted it to show that the dead are aware of us.

Tabitha was aware of him because God brought her back to life.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Tabitha was aware of him because God brought her back to life.

Peter prayed first because Tabitha was brought to life. He interceded in behalf of her and God brought her back to life. This proves that intercessionary prayer has been practiced for a very long time.

Peter being a Jew knows this because Jews themselves pray for the dead. It’s called the Mourner’s Kaddish based on 2 Maccabees.

 

[eucharisteo]

Yes, we certainly can pray directly to God, as Jesus did.

And practical Catholics do pray directly to God…the Father. God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Mary prays for us and shows us Christ through her eyes. She is give to us by Christ on the cross and after being assumed into heaven she is exulted as “Queen of Heaven”… read Revelations. Intercessory prayer is very ancient and goes back to the beginning of Christianity… This was the norm…not the acception. Many miracals have materialized throug the Blessed Mother’s intercession. Mine for example are many. One must keep in mind that we do not worship her for that would be evil and sinful. However, I see how people can get the idea she is worshipped since some peole to choose words that sound like they are. I don’t. But I do love her very much. I adopted Jesus, Mary and Joseph as my foster family when I was 16 during a time in my life when I had none. It gave me the strength to strive for better…I ended up in the seminary. As the devotion dwindling, so did the confusion in all aspects of my life. I feel more whole when I am aware of the role of the communion of the Saints and angels and how they lead me to God…praying for us. There is a great spiritual battle going on and we need their help to strengthen us…their help includes their example on how to live …how to minic trying to be more Christ like.

If Jesus is God
and Mary is the mother of Jesus
Then, Mary is the Mother of God [note: not the creator of God]

 

[MarcoPolo]

Tabitha was aware of him because God brought her back to life.

When Peter addressed her she was dead.

 

[East_and_West]

You bring up some excellent points. There are a large number of Marain and hymns that are troubling. Below is part of a prayer called Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Holy Mary, – Pray for us. (repeat at end of each phrase.)
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honor,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of Heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Virgins,
Queen of all Saints,
Queen conceived without Original Sin,
Queen assumed into Heaven,
Queen of the most holy rosary,
Queen of Peace.

What conclusions would you draw from such a prayer?

That Mary is pretty cool. Honestly, before the Protestant deformation no other conclusion was drawn. But onces the Protestants sect were created, their pastors taught them all sorts of nonsense and for that reason they no longer understand the authentic faith nor devotion to our most Blessed Mother.

 

[TriuneUnity]

When Peter addressed her she was dead.

That doesnt mean she was in heaven and heard him calling her. It means as a response to his prayer, God placed her soul back into her body and she rose from death.

 

[East_and_West]

That doesnt mean she was in heaven and heard him calling her. It means as a response to his prayer, God placed her soul back into her body and she rose from death.

And isn’t that what our God does? Raises people from the dead?

 

[MarcoPolo]

That doesnt mean she was in heaven and heard him calling her. It means as a response to his prayer, God placed her soul back into her body and she rose from death.

The way the passage reads suggests that it was only when Peter addressed her that she awoke. If you don’t believe in purgatory, then she had to be in heaven or hell. The passage very clearly said she was dead. Peter addressed her by name, not God. I have no problem with God being the power to make this possible…all I was saying, is that it is no fact that those dead to us are unaware of us.

 

[justasking4]

That Mary is pretty cool. Honestly, before the Protestant deformation no other conclusion was drawn. But onces the Protestants sect were created, their pastors taught them all sorts of nonsense and for that reason they no longer understand the authentic faith nor devotion to our most Blessed Mother.

Actually the Great Prostentant Reformation made it possible for the church to be held accountable when it erred. If you look at those titles you find that the Jesus nor His apostles ever taught such things about Mary. Those titles go far far beyond the Mary we know in the Scriptures.

 

[Bwsherman]

Actually the Great Prostentant Reformation made it possible for the church to be held accountable when it erred. If you look at those titles you find that the Jesus nor His apostles ever taught such things about Mary. Those titles go far far beyond the Mary we know in the Scriptures.

I would ask, how so? In what way does calling our Lady, Queen of Heaven or Mother of Martyrs or any other title take away from our Lord? If anything, they are the logical conclusions from everything that scripture teaches us about Jesus. The Virgin Mary giving nothing of her own to these titles other than her openness to participate with Christ in the salvation of men. And I know what the next question would be? (How does she participate?) Her participation comes from her simple yet profound statement in St. Luke’s gospel:

“I am the handmaiden of the Lord, let it be done to me as you have said.”

In this act of open participation, she ensured the possibility for the salvation of men. Her words are very similar in nature to what our Lord professes at the garden of Gethsemane:

“Father, if thou will, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done.”

I believe Jesus would be extremely happy with the honor given his mother. He was a good Jewish man and kept the law which required that he ‘honor his father and mother’. If Jesus was right to give his mother honor, how are we any less accountable? Not to mention that part in St. Luke’s gospel:

“Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”

 

[justasking4]

Bwsherman;4153773]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Actually the Great Prostentant Reformation made it possible for the church to be held accountable when it erred. If you look at those titles you find that the Jesus nor His apostles ever taught such things about Mary. Those titles go far far beyond the Mary we know in the Scriptures.

Bwsherman;
I would ask, how so? In what way does calling our Lady, Queen of Heaven or Mother of Martyrs or any other title take away from our Lord? If anything, they are the logical conclusions from everything that scripture teaches us about Jesus. The Virgin Mary giving nothing of her own to these titles other than her openness to participate with Christ in the salvation of men.

Did Jesus Himself ever speak of her this way? Did the apostles who knew her also ever speak of her like this? The answer is no.
If Jesus or His apostles never taught such a thing neither should we… Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

And I know what the next question would be? (How does she participate?) Her participation comes from her simple yet profound statement in St. Luke’s gospel:

“I am the handmaiden of the Lord, let it be done to me as you have said.”

In this act of open participation, she ensured the possibility for the salvation of men. Her words are very similar in nature to what our Lord professes at the garden of Gethsemane:

“Father, if thou will, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done.”

Do you believe salvation was dependent in part on her response?

I believe Jesus would be extremely happy with the honor given his mother. He was a good Jewish man and kept the law which required that he ‘honor his father and mother’. If Jesus was right to give his mother honor, how are we any less accountable?

Where do the Scriptures teach that Mary is your mother? Where did Jesus teach we are to honor her?

Not to mention that part in St. Luke’s gospel:

“Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”

It is true she was blessed in what God was going to do through her. However it is a far different thing to honor her as your mother.

 

[Bwsherman]

Did Jesus Himself ever speak of her this way? Did the apostles who knew her also ever speak of her like this? The answer is no.
If Jesus or His apostles never taught such a thing neither should we… Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Goes too far according to whom? You? Or your interpretation of scripture?

Do you believe salvation was dependent in part on her response?

Salvation was absolutly dependent on her participation. How could it be otherwise?

Where do the Scriptures teach that Mary is your mother? Where did Jesus teach we are to honor her?

I accept Mary as my mother in response to Christ giving St. John charge over her care and telling her that this was her son now and that she was his mother. Christ was giving us all Mary at the same time he was shedding his blood for all of us. Its siginficance is attached to the fact that it is one of the last things Christ spoke on the cross. And I honor Mary because Christ honored Mary as her son. And I wish to imitate Christ in all things.

It is true she was blessed in what God was going to do through her. However it is a far different thing to honor her as your mother.

I disagree. Simple as that. And nothing in scripture is contrary to what we hold as Catholics in terms of our beliefs about our Lady. It might not be explicit in scripture, but there are many things that you hold as a Christian which are not explicit. The
Trinity being a very easy example, but others could be stated.
Also, you haven’t told me how honoring Mary takes anything away from our worship of our Lord.

 

[justasking4]

Bwsherman;4153908]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Did Jesus Himself ever speak of her this way? Did the apostles who knew her also ever speak of her like this? The answer is no.
If Jesus or His apostles never taught such a thing neither should we… Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Bwsherman
Goes too far according to whom? You? Or your interpretation of scripture?

Where in the teachings of Christ do we find such titles for Mary? If we don’t find any such things then you have gone beyond the teachings of Christ since we know He never such things about her.

justasking4
Do you believe salvation was dependent in part on her response?

Bwsherman
Salvation was absolutly dependent on her participation. How could it be otherwise?

Do you believe then that God was limited by her response in bringing salvation to mankind?

justasking4
Where do the Scriptures teach that Mary is your mother? Where did Jesus teach we are to honor her?

Bwsherman
I accept Mary as my mother in response to Christ giving St. John charge over her care and telling her that this was her son now and that she was his mother. Christ was giving us all Mary at the same time he was shedding his blood for all of us. Its siginficance is attached to the fact that it is one of the last things Christ spoke on the cross. And I honor Mary because Christ honored Mary as her son. And I wish to imitate Christ in all things.

Does John in any of his writings ever refer to Mary as the mother of the church?

Do any of the other writers of the NT refer to her as such?

justasking4
It is true she was blessed in what God was going to do through her. However it is a far different thing to honor her as your mother.

Bwsherman
I disagree. Simple as that. And nothing in scripture is contrary to what we hold as Catholics in terms of our beliefs about our Lady. It might not be explicit in scripture, but there are many things that you hold as a Christian which are not explicit. The
Trinity being a very easy example, but others could be stated.
Also, you haven’t told me how honoring Mary takes anything away from our worship of our Lord.

Mary plays a prominent role in Catholic theology. After the doctrine of God she is next in promience. No one comes even close to her place in Catholic beliefs. To compare the Trinity with marian doctrines in terms of support from scripture is unwarranted. There are many passages in the Scriptures that show the triune nature of God but there are no such passages to support Mary’s supposed immaculate conception or assumption. These 2 doctrines are not even mentioned in the Scriptures. The same goes for those titles that are used of her.

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