2679 Mary is the perfect *Orans *(pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40Holy Mary, – Pray for us. (repeat at end of each phrase.)
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honor,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of Heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Virgins,
Queen of all Saints,
Queen conceived without Original Sin,
Queen assumed into Heaven,
Queen of the most holy rosary,
Queen of Peace.
What conclusions would you draw from such a prayer?
Where in the Scriptures do we find this? Where do we find anyone in the NT praying to her?2679 Mary is the perfect *Orans *(pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42Where in the Scriptures do we find this? Where do we find anyone in the NT praying to her?
The Trintiy is only explicit to you now because of the work of the Church and the Council of Nicea in the fourth century. The Church had all the same scriptures that you have access to now and it still was not settled for over three centuries. The doctrines of the Immaculate conception and the Assumption are again, logical conclusions based on what we know from scripture.Where in the teachings of Christ do we find such titles for Mary? If we don’t find any such things then you have gone beyond the teachings of Christ since we know He never such things about her.
How exactly, has the Church gone beyond the teachings of Christ? Show me where in scripture the Church’s teaching is contrary to that which we find throughout scripture.
Do you believe then that God was limited by her response in bringing salvation to mankind?
God is not limited by anything, but this was the way he chose for mankind and as such was only limited by Mary’s reception of the task or her turning away from it. She exercised her free-will and chose to do what was in accordance with the will of the Father, but she did make a choice.
Does John in any of his writings ever refer to Mary as the mother of the church?
Not certain why it should matter if St. John ever wrote about Mary in any of his writings, but Rev. 12:1-2 does give us the clearest reference to Mary as Queen of Heaven.
Do any of the other writers of the NT refer to her as such?
Moot point.
Mary plays a prominent role in Catholic theology. After the doctrine of God she is next in promience. No one comes even close to her place in Catholic beliefs. To compare the Trinity with marian doctrines in terms of support from scripture is unwarranted. There are many passages in the Scriptures that show the triune nature of God but there are no such passages to support Mary’s supposed immaculate conception or assumption. These 2 doctrines are not even mentioned in the Scriptures. The same goes for those titles that are used of her.
The reason we know that God is a Trinity is because the Scriptures point to it. The council did not formulate the trinitarian doctrine out of thin air but by studying the Scriptures. If the council had not done so then it would still not mean that there is no Trinity nor later others would have formulated.Bwsherman;4154150]The Trintiy is only explicit to you now because of the work of the Church and the Council of Nicea in the fourth century. The Church had all the same scriptures that you have access to now and it still was not settled for over three centuries.
How so?The doctrines of the Immaculate conception and the Assumption are again, logical conclusions based on what we know from scripture.
Yes it does take away since honor in a spiritual sense is to be given only to God alone. … which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,Why do you keep avoiding answering my question? I will ask it again so as not to seem evasive with what I would like to know. How does honoring Mary take anything away from the worship of Jesus?
This does not answer the question—“where do we find anyone praying to Mary in the NT”?81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] *Tradition *transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
Do we have the Trinity in the Bible or the Word Bible in the Bible?This does not answer the question—“where do we find anyone praying to Mary in the NT”?
The superstition is not part of the original prayer. That is some crazy person that made that up and mislead some good catholics. This is just the medevil style of prayer.I know that Catholics say that they do not pray TO Mary; however, I found this published in my local paper this morning:
PRAYER TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
“(Never known to all) Oh, most beautiful flowers of Mount Carmel, fruitful vine, splendor of Heaven, Blessed Mother of the Son of God, Immaculate Virgin, assist me in my necessity. Oh, Star of the Sea, help me and show me, herein you are my mother. Oh, Holy Mary, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth! I humbly beseech you from the bottom of my heart to succor me in this necessity. There are none that can withstand your power. Oh, show me herein you are my mother. Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee (3X). Holy Spirit, you who solve all problems, light all roads so I can attain my goal. You who have the divine gift to forgive and forget all evil against me and that in all instances in my life, you are with me. I want in this short prayer to thank you for all things as I confirm once again that I never want to be separated from you in eternal glory. Thank you for your mercy toward me and mine. The person must say this prayer for 3 consecutive days. After 3 days, the request will be granted. This prayer must be published after the favor is granted.”
I know that Catholics say that this is the same as asking friend to pray for us, but is it really? The prayer addresses Mary in the same way as it addresses the Holy Spirit. Is Mary equal to the Holy Spirit?
What about the superstition? The prayer says, “You must say this prayer for 3 consecutive days. After 3 days, the request will be granted. This prayer must be published after the favor is granted.”
I don’t want to argue, but I’m really trying to understand this type of prayer.
The Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary can be understood if we understand three key points.This type of prayer certainly elevates Mary above what is indicated in scripture.
Mystical rose, pray for us.This type of prayer certainly elevates Mary above what is indicated in scripture.
Worship is given to God alone…not honor. And I am sorry you feel this way, but the fact remains that God has chosen the Church to reveal truth whether other means could be utiized or not. The Church existed before the scriptures of the NT and this fact is undisputed. Your interpretation of scripture is not the same as probably fifteen thousand other protestant members. You have no legs to stand on other than your personal interpretation and I pity the man that has to rely soley on his own intellect to figure things out.The reason we know that God is a Trinity is because the Scriptures point to it. The council did not formulate the trinitarian doctrine out of thin air but by studying the Scriptures. If the council had not done so then it would still not mean that there is no Trinity nor later others would have formulated.
And yet you accept this council’s interpretation of scripture on one hand and then on the other deny the Church’s ability to define other things from scripture.
How so?
Yes it does take away since honor in a spiritual sense is to be given only to God alone. … which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.** To Him be honor **and eternal dominion! Amen.
I Timothy 6:15-16
Never is it found in the Scriptures that someone who has died is given honor.
Well, if you seek proof for your position exclusively by some proof text then we can never agree.This does not answer the question—“where do we find anyone praying to Mary in the NT”?
God’s glory does not increase or decrease if we glorify him. At the end of time we will realize that God did not increase in glory even 1 percent because of all the honour that we his creatures gave to him. Honouring Mary doesn’t take away the glory of God. Even if you honour thousands of saints God will not lose any of his honour or glory.Yes it does take away since honor in a spiritual sense is to be given only to God alone. …
“Honour your father and your mother”. The Hebrew word for honour means to bestow glory upon your Father and Mother. We have done the same to Mary, have you?He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.** To Him be honor **and eternal dominion! Amen.
I Timothy 6:15-16
God is God of the living, not of the dead. We give honour to Mary our Mother (Rev 12:17), the queen of Heaven (Rev 12:1) who is alive!Never is it found in the Scriptures that someone who has died is given honor.
fix;4154260]
Originally Posted by justasking4
This does not answer the question—“where do we find anyone praying to Mary in the NT”?
fix
Well, if you seek proof for your position exclusively by some proof text then we can never agree.
You can take the Scriptures out of this for this. Its never taught in Scripture for any ever to pray to Mary. What we are then left with is Tradition and what the magisterium. What we have then is a tradition of men and not a teaching of the Scriptures.Christ founded a Church, not a book. It is about Scripture, Tradition, and magisterium.
Actually its more like a court of law where a claim is made and we look for the evidence for it. In this case, there is none in the Scriptures.It would be like asking for proof that 2+2=4 without using math.
And it’s no indication that the dead are aware of us. It’s an indication that in response to Peter’s apostolic authority and gifts being used a miracle was performed. According to the argument you’re using, from the story of Balaam’s donkey we can conclude that animals really do understand human speech.The way the passage reads suggests that it was only when Peter addressed her that she awoke. If you don’t believe in purgatory, then she had to be in heaven or hell. The passage very clearly said she was dead. Peter addressed her by name, not God. I have no problem with God being the power to make this possible…all I was saying, is that it is no fact that those dead to us are unaware of us.
Faulty conclusion! How do you know it’s a tradition of men and not apostolic tradition?Its never taught in Scripture for any ever to pray to Mary. What we are then left with is Tradition and what the magisterium. What we have then is a tradition of men and not a teaching of the Scriptures.
And scripture is not the only place where you should look for evidence if you are a Catholic! Scripture points to tradition as well!Actually its more like a court of law where a claim is made and we look for the evidence for it. In this case, there is none in the Scriptures.
You want only evidence that fits your view. The reality is much different. Christ founded a Church. The canon of Scriptures and much else comes from the Church. Take out the Church and Tradition and we have only each person’s private view that contradicts so much it cannot be reconciled.You can take the Scriptures out of this for this. Its never taught in Scripture for any ever to pray to Mary. What we are then left with is Tradition and what the magisterium. What we have then is a tradition of men and not a teaching of the Scriptures.
Actually its more like a court of law where a claim is made and we look for the evidence for it. In this case, there is none in the Scriptures.
First of all, the saints are only physically dead, not spiritually.And it’s no indication that the dead are aware of us.
Since the only teachings of the apostles can only be found in the Scriptures and the Scriptures never mention such a thing as honoring Mary after she died it follows that its not apostolic.iaskquestions;4154400]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Its never taught in Scripture for any ever to pray to Mary. What we are then left with is Tradition and what the magisterium. What we have then is a tradition of men and not a teaching of the Scriptures.
iaskquestions
Faulty conclusion! How do you know it’s a tradition of men and not apostolic tradition?
Just because there may be some “tradition” somewhere does not mean its true. For example just because someone in the past mentions a prayer to Mary would not mean that one should pray such a prayer or that the entire church at the time did so.Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Actually its more like a court of law where a claim is made and we look for the evidence for it. In this case, there is none in the Scriptures.
iaskquestions
And scripture is not the only place where you should look for evidence if you are a Catholic! Scripture points to tradition as well!
It is true people want evidence for their views and find it problematic when they can’t. Such is the case with much of the marian doctrines. They don’t have the support of the Scriptrues. This is why there is so many problems with trying to reconciling these doctrines with Scripture.Originally Posted by justasking4
You can take the Scriptures out of this for this. Its never taught in Scripture for any ever to pray to Mary. What we are then left with is Tradition and what the magisterium. What we have then is a tradition of men and not a teaching of the Scriptures.
Actually its more like a court of law where a claim is made and we look for the evidence for it. In this case, there is none in the Scriptures.
fix
You want only evidence that fits your view. The reality is much different. Christ founded a Church. The canon of Scriptures and much else comes from the Church. Take out the Church and Tradition and we have only each person’s private view that contradicts so much it cannot be reconciled.