Prayer to the Dead (Saints)

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Marc_Anthony

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My standard response to those who ask me why Catholics pray to the dead (Saints) I always reply that we consider the Saints very much alive, just in Heaven. But then a Protestant quoted this verse at me:

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.

The Bible refers even to those “in Christ” as dead. So the PRotestant claims that we are indeed praying to the dead, which is necromancy. How do I respond?
 
If the dead are in Christ, then their souls are with Him, yes? So the ‘dead shall rise’ to me indicates that those who are in Heaven with Christ will be the first whose BODIES shall ‘rise’ to join their souls. (Followed by the joining of bodies to those souls in hell for eternal torment, and then the judgment of those who may still be bodily alive on earth when Christ comes, etc.)

So there is nothing in the passage to indicate that we pray to ‘the dead’. Those in Christ are alive (souls). Their bodies will join to make them ‘complete’ just as Christ’s glorified body and soul are joined.
 
The response to me:

"Marc, I think, with this very post, you’ve made my entire argument valid. The Verse in question in which ever translation or numbering system says ‘dead in christ’ but you go to some catholic site, and find some way to say the dead are alive, before their resurrection to justify an extra biblical practice.

Nice."

How in the word do I respond to this.

EDIT: Tantum Ergo, I used your excellent response, BTW.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
The response to me:

"Marc, I think, with this very post, you’ve made my entire argument valid. The Verse in question in which ever translation or numbering system says ‘dead in christ’ but you go to some catholic site, and find some way to say the dead are alive, before their resurrection to justify an extra biblical practice.

Nice."

How in the word do I respond to this.

EDIT: Tantum Ergo, I used your excellent response, BTW.
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Isn’t necromancy attempting to communicate with the dead? When we ask a Saint to pray for us we are NOT asking them to speak to us. We are sending up a petition but not expecting or asking for a response. Whereas when one communicates with the dead one asks questions and hopes for an actual response to glean information on the ‘other side’.

The reason this is forbidden (I believe) is because it opens the door to the great Deceiver who could, under the guise of being a loved one who has passed, tell us all kinds of terrible things about the afterlife that aren’t true and thus throw our spiritual journey into turmoil.

Instead of blindly attacking anything that LOOKS like what we are forbidden to do, perhaps your friend should examine exactly what necromancy is and what it means.
 
nickybr38 said:
Isn’t necromancy attempting to communicate with the dead? When we ask a Saint to pray for us we are NOT asking them to speak to us. We are sending up a petition but not expecting or asking for a response. Whereas when one communicates with the dead one asks questions and hopes for an actual response to glean information on the ‘other side’.

The reason this is forbidden (I believe) is because it opens the door to the great Deceiver who could, under the guise of being a loved one who has passed, tell us all kinds of terrible things about the afterlife that aren’t true and thus throw our spiritual journey into turmoil.

Instead of blindly attacking anything that LOOKS like what we are forbidden to do, perhaps your friend should examine exactly what necromancy is and what it means.
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But aren’t we asking the Saints to do something for us?

And THIS particular Protestant is very anti-Catholic and not my friend.
 
I am always astounded at God’s providential timing. Yesterday’s gospel just “happened” to be from Mk. 12:18-27, almost in anticipation of your question. As the Sadducees tried to trap Jesus, He responded:
As for the dead being raised,
have you not read in the Book of Moses,
in the passage about the bush, how God told him,
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac,
and the God of Jacob?
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He is not God of the dead but of the living.
You are greatly misled.”
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And when Jesus was transfigured on the mount with his three disciples, guess who appeared with Him? Moses and Elijah! Yes, our bodies are dead, having died in Christ, but the soul lives, and we will all be resurrected body AND soul. That was the gist of yesterday’s gospel.
 
Isn’t God’s timing impeccable? 😉

Thank you for your most helpful response.
 
Rev6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
 
panevino said:
Rev6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
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I’m a bit confused. How exactly does this relate to the verse I posted originally (1 Thessalonians 4:15)?
 
Originally Posted by panevino
Rev6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Marc_Anthony said:
I’m a bit confused. How exactly does this relate to the verse I posted originally (1 Thessalonians 4:15)?
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i thought it was relevant to as it shows souls of martyred saints active/alive in heaven (ie: alive in christ - not dead)
 
Marc they have physically died and are properly called “dead” but they are spiritually alive and worthy of receiving our requests for intercession. :o
 
Marc_Anthony said:
My standard response to those who ask me why Catholics pray to the dead (Saints) I always reply that we consider the Saints very much alive, just in Heaven. But then a Protestant quoted this verse at me:

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.

The Bible refers even to those “in Christ” as dead. So the PRotestant claims that we are indeed praying to the dead, which is necromancy. How do I respond?
Click to expand...
This is what happens when a verse is taken out of context. By the way the verse is verse 16 not 15. Read the entire passage.

“13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.” [1 Thess 4:13-18]

Now notice verse 14 speaks of the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Notice I stressed the word bodily At the second coming Jesus will come in bodily form. We, who are still alive on the earth will also be in bodily form will be caught up. The “dead in Christ” spoken of in verse 16 are the bodies of the souls in heaven who will be reunited with each other. Their bodies will be raised. Their souls are not with their bodies. Their souls are in heaven not the grave. There is no dead in heaven. Paul writes of this also in other epistles. For instance in 1 Cor 15: 51-55 paul writes:

"51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?” [1Cor 15:51-55]

Protestants have a hangup with physical death. But the soul which is spiritual does not die at physical death which is also called the first death. The soul is alive in heaven unless it is condemned to hell [the second death]. Prayer is a spiritual act between two alive spiritual beings one on earth and one in heaven.
 
Thanks to all!

Inkaneer, your response especially is excellent.
 
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