Prayer

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Jay53 said:
Let me guess … Catholics pray the “Hail Mary” so we “worship” Mary. :rolleyes:

Can I win a prize if I’m right? 😛 😃
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Yes Jay53! Let’s see what Jay has won…a ticket straight to…

😛 We are sooo in trouble right now.

Catholics, get ready to join forces!

😃
 
Doing good works simply because it is the right thing to do is a form of worship.

Anytime we offer gratitude and devotion to God is a form of worship.

If one feels led to offer praise to God for chosing Mary as the vessel He used to bring about the salvation of mankind…yes…it is a form of worship.

If one feels led to seek the intercession of those who are perfect in Christ and who comprise that “great cloud of witnesses” of those who have gone on before…that too is a form of worship to the Father.

All things done out of love is a form of worship…even a cup of water given in His name is a form of worship…and I would suspect God would rather have us worship Him by serving meals to the hungry and a word of comfort to the hurt and broken than in seeking out faults in others belief traditions.
 
Publisher said:
Doing good works simply because it is the right thing to do is a form of worship.

Anytime we offer gratitude and devotion to God is a form of worship.

If one feels led to offer praise to God for chosing Mary as the vessel He used to bring about the salvation of mankind…yes…it is a form of worship.

If one feels led to seek the intercession of those who are perfect in Christ and who comprise that “great cloud of witnesses” of those who have gone on before…that too is a form of worship to the Father.

All things done out of love is a form of worship…even a cup of water given in His name is a form of worship…and I would suspect God would rather have us worship Him by serving meals to the hungry and a word of comfort to the hurt and broken than in seeking out faults in others belief traditions.
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🙂
 
Vatican Council II Vol. 1 p420.

“Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father.”

You guys said it…not me.

But this isn’t why I asked the question.

If prayer is a form of worship…then how can we pray to Mary…or any saint for that matter (my grandmother for example) without worshiping them?
 
Stouts989 said:
Vatican Council II Vol. 1 p420.

“Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father.”

You guys said it…not me.

But this isn’t why I asked the question.

If prayer is a form of worship…then how can we pray to Mary…or any saint for that matter (my grandmother for example) without worshiping them?
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Hey, here he is! :bounce:

Can you tell us what website you pasted that from?

Thanks.
 
Here is what I found on the Vatican website:

This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator

No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.
The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary, which it constantly experiences and recommends to the heartfelt attention of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

The various forms of piety towards the Mother of God, which the Church has approved within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine, according to the dispositions and understanding of the faithful, ensure that while the mother is honored, the Son through whom all things have their being (cf. Col. 1:15-16) and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell (cf. Col. 1:19) is rightly known, loved and glorified and his commandments are observed.

But it strongly urges theologians and preachers of the word of God to be careful to refrain as much from all false exaggeration as from too summary an attitude in considering the special dignity of the Mother of God.[23] Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always refer to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity, and devotion. Let them carefully refrain from whatever might by word or deed lead the separated brethren or any others whatsoever into error about the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to recognize the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love towards our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.
**(VATICAN II DOCUMENT, ***LUMEN GENTIUM , *CHAPTER VIII, **** THE ROLE OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, MOTHER OF GOD, IN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH)

Nothing of the sort of thing you posted can be found on the Vatican website under “Documents of Vatican II Council”.

I don’t know where you got it, but at least try to post legitimate information and not untruths. Nowhere in the Council Documents does it even mention the worship of Mary at all.
 
Stouts989 said:
Vatican Council II Vol. 1 p420.

“Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father.”

You guys said it…not me.

But this isn’t why I asked the question.

If prayer is a form of worship…then how can we pray to Mary…or any saint for that matter (my grandmother for example) without worshiping them?
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Friend,

I am not Catholic, I am a Quaker.

Some Quakers still use the “plain language” of using ‘thee’ and “thy” when we address one another. It is a form of “religious language”. As I understand Catholicism also has a “religious language”…but their language has it’s roots in Latin. As I understand there are various words when translated into English all are translated “worship”. In Latin the words would carry certain meaning which is lost in English.

One of those words in English translated “worship” has more of a connotation of “devotion” or “devout profound respect”, it is this “worship” that is ascribed to Mary…there is a word in Latin translated into English as “worship” that is used in regards to “worship” given to God alone…I suspect when you use the word “worship” you have in mind that Latin word “given to God alone”…and since neither one of us speak “Catholic” it is easy for us as non-Catholics to misunderstand their “religious language”…one must listen “closely” and without preconceptions of what their religious traditions teach…we cannot seek to “Baptistize” or “Quakerize” their particular “relgious language”…even though some Catholics also fall into the trap to “Caholicize” certain beliefs and traditions many Protestants are comfortable with…but Catholics have difficulty “translating” into “Catholic”…and so misunderstandings arise…as your post misunderstands the various Latin words translated into English as “worship”…even though in Latin the meaning is clear…in English it “misses something in the translation.”
 
Publisher said:
Friend,

I am not Catholic, I am a Quaker.

Some Quakers still use the “plain language” of using ‘thee’ and “thy” when we address one another. It is a form of “religious language”. As I understand Catholicism also has a “religious language”…but their language has it’s roots in Latin. As I understand there are various words when translated into English all are translated “worship”. In Latin the words would carry certain meaning which is lost in English.

One of those words in English translated “worship” has more of a connotation of “devotion” or “devout profound respect”, it isthis “worship” that is ascribed to Mary…there is a word in Latin translated into English as “worship” that is used in regards to “worship” given to God alone…I suspect when you use the word “worship” you have in mind that Latin word “given to God alone”…and since neither one of us speak “Catholic” it is easy for us as non-Catholics to misunderstand their “religious language”…one must listen “closely” and without preconceptions of what their religious traditions teach…we cannot seek to “Baptistize” or “Quakerize” their particular “relgious language”…even though some Catholics also fall into the trap to “Caholicise” certain beliefs and traditions many Protestants are comfortable with…but Catholics have difficulty “translating” into “Catholic”…and so misunderstandings arise…as your post misunderstands the various Latin words translated into English as “worship”…even though in Latin the meaning is clear…in English it “misses something in the translation.”
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Hello Publisher:

It doesn’t matter because he didn’t get it from the Vatican documents on the Holy’s See’s website. It’s complete bunk. An untruth.
 
happilycatholic said:
Hello Publisher:

It doesn’t matter because he didn’t get it from the Vatican documents on the Holy’s See’s website. It’s complete bunk. An untruth.
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But it does matter. If we live in truth, then we are obligated to assist this young man to understand the nuances of Catholicism. He is a seeker of truth himself after all…and while he may be going at it the wrong way by making assumptions not grounded in truth…perhaps reponding in kindness and using the “religious language” of love and mercy toward others…we may all learn something from one another.
 
Publisher said:
But it does matter. If we live in truth, then we are obligated to assist this young man to understand the nuances of Catholicism. He is a seeker of truth himself after all…and while he may be going at it the wrong way by making assumptions not grounded in truth…perhaps reponding in kindness and using the “religious language” of love and mercy toward others…we may all learn something from one another.
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I agree Publisher, you are right. However I think first he needs to learn the nuances of truth and relaying the truth to others. If we relay an untruth we are a bearer of that untruth. If I want to relay a belief of Quakers and I want to find it on a website, I first go to the official website (if one exists) because I want to relay the truth.

I think the way it was presented negates the idea that he is an innocent here. I believe it was intentional. It was not a matter of interpretation or translation of language. What he posted was incorrect. It is not what the document says at all and has erroneous things added to it.

However we will find out. ~Peace Be With You Publisher, you are very kind. 🙂

Here is what the excerpt actually says as taken from the Vatican website:
  1. But while in the most holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she is without spot or wrinkle, the followers of Christ still strive to increase in holiness by conquering sin.(300) And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Piously meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church with reverence enters more intimately into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her Spouse. For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her exalted Type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. Hence the Church, in her apostolic work also, justly looks to her, who, conceived of the Holy Spirit, brought forth Christ, who was born of the Virgin that through the Church He may be born and may increase in the hearts of the faithful also. The Virgin in her own life lived an example of that maternal love, by which it behooves that all should be animated who cooperate in the apostolic mission of the Church for the regeneration of men.
 
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