Prayers for the dead..

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dogknox

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To say… “Can’t pray for the dead because; if they are in heaven then, Prayers are useless and the reverse; if they are in Gehenna then, Prayers are also useless!”
Is not scriptural… Because Luke 16 points us to a man being “SANCTIFIED” after death!
The Rich Man is a **SON ** of Abraham; Abraham calls the Rich Man “SON”!!
The Rich Man addresses Abraham as his “FATHER!”

Also…
The Rich Man wants Lazarus to warn his brothers about his place of torment! A man in Gehenna is full with HATE!! The Rich Man would “NOT” have compassion for his brothers if he was in Gehenna!
FACT: A man in Gehenna is the Child of Satan… Not a child of Abraham!
A man is Gehenna has Satan as his Father… Abraham would not be his Father if he was in Gehenna!

Galatians 3:7
Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

James 2:21
Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

Again Abraham called the Rich Man >>“SON”<<!!
The Rich Man was NOT in Gehenna!!!
He was being SANCTIFIED before his entry into heaven!

**FACT: **“No Man can cross the Gulf” >>But<< Jesus is not just any man… God can cross the Gulf… The Rich Man when he is fully Sanctified & Justified will enter>> through Jesus!

More Scripture…
Matthew 9:18
While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, “My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.”

NOTE: The girl was “DEAD”!! The girl was not breathing, she was cold, gone from the body..She was DEAD!!

The father PETITIONS Jesus on his KNEES!! He asks Jesus on his KNEES to help his “DEAD” daughter!
He was interceding on behalf of the DEAD!!
**PROVING: **Jesus hears petition on behalf of the dead, from other people!!!
Praying for the dead is scriptural, it is expected of the living, to pray for the dead!

Catholic’s have ALWAYS prayed for the dead!
FACT: In the catacombs, on these first century tomes are inscribed; “Pray for my soul”! These First century Catholic’s prayed for their dead!

🙂
 
The best proof that we can be saved after death is in 1 Corinthians 3.

10 According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it. But let each see how he builds upon it 11 For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

There is no other foundation than Jesus Christ, nothing else can be built upon in order for a man to be saved. There is no other Truth, no other way.

12 Now if any one build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw,

Gold, silver, precious stones = profitable thing (works of love).
wood, grass, straw = worthless things (works of inequity, or faith without works).

13 the work of each shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire shall try the work of each what it is.

All these works will be revealed on the day that person is judged by God. The fire, which is the Word of God, (Jeremiah 23:29), will judge them.

14 If the work of any one which he has built upon the foundation shall abide, he shall receive a reward.

Whatever good works are left which were built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ that are not burned up, will be rewarded for-- the good works are represented by gold, silver, and precious stone, which do not burn up easily and they are treasures (Matthew 6:20).

15 If the work of any one shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss, but he shall be saved, but so as through the fire.

That person suffers loss, but is still saved by the Word of God, Jesus Christ.
 
dogknox said:
To say… “Can’t pray for the dead because; if they are in heaven then, Prayers are useless and the reverse; if they are in Gehenna then, Prayers are also useless!”
Is not scriptural… Because Luke 16 points us to a man being “SANCTIFIED” after death!
The Rich Man is a **SON ** of Abraham; Abraham calls the Rich Man “SON”!!
The Rich Man addresses Abraham as his “FATHER!”

Also…
The Rich Man wants Lazarus to warn his brothers about his place of torment! A man in Gehenna is full with HATE!! The Rich Man would “NOT” have compassion for his brothers if he was in Gehenna!
FACT: A man in Gehenna is the Child of Satan… Not a child of Abraham!
A man is Gehenna has Satan as his Father… Abraham would not be his Father if he was in Gehenna!

Galatians 3:7
Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

James 2:21
Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

Again Abraham called the Rich Man >>“SON”<<!!
The Rich Man was NOT in Gehenna!!!
He was being SANCTIFIED before his entry into heaven!

**FACT: **“No Man can cross the Gulf” >>But<< Jesus is not just any man… God can cross the Gulf… The Rich Man when he is fully Sanctified & Justified will enter>> through Jesus!

More Scripture…
Matthew 9:18
While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, “My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.”

NOTE: The girl was “DEAD”!! The girl was not breathing, she was cold, gone from the body..She was DEAD!!

The father PETITIONS Jesus on his KNEES!! He asks Jesus on his KNEES to help his “DEAD” daughter!
He was interceding on behalf of the DEAD!!
**PROVING: **Jesus hears petition on behalf of the dead, from other people!!!
Praying for the dead is scriptural, it is expected of the living, to pray for the dead!

Catholic’s have ALWAYS prayed for the dead!
FACT: In the catacombs, on these first century tomes are inscribed; “Pray for my soul”! These First century Catholic’s prayed for their dead!

🙂
Click to expand...
Heres another example:

St. Tabitha was a virtuous and kindly woman who belonged to the Christian community in Joppa. She was known for her good deeds and almsgiving. Having become grievously ill, she suddenly died. At that time, the Apostle Peter was preaching at Lydda, not far from Joppa. Messengers were sent to him with an urgent request for help. When the Apostle arrived at Joppa, Tabitha was already dead. On bended knee, St. Peter made a fervent prayer to the Lord. Then he went to the bed and called out, “Tabitha, get up!” She arose, completely healed (Acts 9:36).
 
God is not within the confines of time. All things that are, were and will be are in His mind. But for that, none would exist.

It is not absurd to imagine that God can, through the intercession of prayer, alter past events so that a man who would be unrepentant without God’s intercession in time, might become repentant.
 
dogknox said:
To say… “Can’t pray for the dead because; if they are in heaven then, Prayers are useless and the reverse; if they are in Gehenna then, Prayers are also useless!”
Is not scriptural… Because Luke 16 points us to a man being “SANCTIFIED” after death!
The Rich Man is a **SON ** of Abraham; Abraham calls the Rich Man “SON”!!
The Rich Man addresses Abraham as his “FATHER!”
Click to expand...
I like your method of arguing for the possibility that the Rich Man, in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, is in Purgatory, which is what I think you’re arguing. Please correct me if I’m wrong. The broader issue of praying for the dead is supported throughout Catholic theology. I do want to focus on the Rich Man example, however, since it’s my personal favorite parable from the Gospels.

Christ in that parable says the Rich Man went down into the netherworld which (to my understanding) is technically regarded as a place for the dead, not necessarily Hell. Where I would personally exercise caution was covered in the readings at Mass on June 23rd (Matthew 7: 21-29). In that reading Christ, himself, says:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
will enter the Kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day,
‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name?
Did we not drive out demons in your name?
Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly,
‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’”

This passage gives me caution in saying the Rich Man or anyone else is definitely in Purgatory as opposed to Hell because Christ is telling us that there will be MANY who approach him outwardly saying the right words (calling Him Lord as the Rich Man called Abraham Father) and outwardly having done the right things (successfully prophesying in the Lord’s name and doing mighty deeds in His name) but, nevertheless, Christ will say “I never knew you” and call them “evildoers” despite doing the outwardly right things. Only the Lord knows the heart but you and I can be fooled by outwardly appearances and actions. Christ judges justly and we trust in Him.

I’ll also issue another word of caution. Protestants readers who may think the above paragraph is justification for a “Faith Alone” argument are mistaken. Good works as a result of faith is a sign of the faith that lies within, however, the MANY who are called “evildoers” are NOT doing what is objectively regarded as a good work because they are obeying the will of God; instead, they are doing outwardly good works for other reasons (e.g. pride, seeking human praise, etc.). Anything NOT done in accordance with the will of God, even those things which are outwardly good in themselves, is from the Evil One. Even Satan properly quoted scripture when testing Christ (e.g. throw yourself from this height… “lest you dash your foot” - it is written). Isn’t quoting the Word of God accurately an outwardly good thing? Of course it is! Yet, he is the Father of Lies because Satan fundamentally refuses to obey the Will of God.

Anyone can hear the readings and a fabulous Homily by Fr. Mitch Pacwa for the June 23rd Mass by clicking here (~ 23 mins). Praying for the dead is fundamentally a good thing for us in the Church Militant to be doing. That said “obedience is better than sacrifice” - so if we pray for the dead (a sacrifice) without obedience to the Will of God, then that sacrifice is made in vain.
Sirach23v27
 
Sirach23v27 said:
I like your method of arguing for the possibility that the Rich Man, in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, is in Purgatory, which is what I think you’re arguing. Please correct me if I’m wrong. The broader issue of praying for the dead is supported throughout Catholic theology. I do want to focus on the Rich Man example, however, since it’s my personal favorite parable from the Gospels.

Christ in that parable says the Rich Man went down into the netherworld which (to my understanding) is technically regarded as a place for the dead, not necessarily Hell. Where I would personally exercise caution was covered in the readings at Mass on June 23rd (Matthew 7: 21-29). In that reading Christ, himself, says:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
will enter the Kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day,
‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name?
Did we not drive out demons in your name?
Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly,
‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’”

This passage gives me caution in saying the Rich Man or anyone else is definitely in Purgatory as opposed to Hell because Christ is telling us that there will be MANY who approach him outwardly saying the right words (calling Him Lord as the Rich Man called Abraham Father) and outwardly having done the right things (successfully prophesying in the Lord’s name and doing mighty deeds in His name) but, nevertheless, Christ will say “I never knew you” and call them “evildoers” despite doing the outwardly right things. Only the Lord knows the heart but you and I can be fooled by outwardly appearances and actions. Christ judges justly and we trust in Him.

I’ll also issue another word of caution. Protestants readers who may think the above paragraph is justification for a “Faith Alone” argument are mistaken. Good works as a result of faith is a sign of the faith that lies within, however, the MANY who are called “evildoers” are NOT doing what is objectively regarded as a good work because they are obeying the will of God; instead, they are doing outwardly good works for other reasons (e.g. pride, seeking human praise, etc.). Anything NOT done in accordance with the will of God, even those things which are outwardly good in themselves, is from the Evil One. Even Satan properly quoted scripture when testing Christ (e.g. throw yourself from this height… “lest you dash your foot” - it is written). Isn’t quoting the Word of God accurately an outwardly good thing? Of course it is! Yet, he is the Father of Lies because Satan fundamentally refuses to obey the Will of God.

Anyone can hear the readings and a fabulous Homily by Fr. Mitch Pacwa for the June 23rd Mass by clicking here (~ 23 mins). Praying for the dead is fundamentally a good thing for us in the Church Militant to be doing. That said “obedience is better than sacrifice” - so if we pray for the dead (a sacrifice) without obedience to the Will of God, then that sacrifice is made in vain.
Sirach23v27
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Sirach23v27 Good to meet you…
I point out… Abraham called the Rich Man SON!! So there is NO question … “The Rich Man was NOT in Gehenna!”
Also…It was Jesus who told this parable… right from the mouth of God>> The Rich Man had COMPASSION for others… Others, other then himself!
Jesus pointed out the Rich Mans COMPASSION!!

The Matthew 9:18
While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, “My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.”

NOTE: The girl was “DEAD”!! Jesus heard the PETITION from the man for his DEAD daughter! Jesus helped the DEAD because he was ASKED to help!

Petitions for others, petitions for the DEAD is scriptural!!
Proving the Protestant wrong!!

Yes to do the WILL of the Father, is to LOVE the father!
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
will enter the Kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Mary our mother’ words to God…
38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” Then the angel left her.

Mary truly did do the will of God!!

Dogknox
 
PeterGStanley said:
Heres another example:

St. Tabitha was a virtuous and kindly woman who belonged to the Christian community in Joppa. She was known for her good deeds and almsgiving. Having become grievously ill, she suddenly died. At that time, the Apostle Peter was preaching at Lydda, not far from Joppa. Messengers were sent to him with an urgent request for help. When the Apostle arrived at Joppa, Tabitha was already dead. On bended knee, St. Peter made a fervent prayer to the Lord. Then he went to the bed and called out, “Tabitha, get up!” She arose, completely healed (Acts 9:36).
Click to expand...
Yes very good…
Praying for the dead is scriptural!!

🙂
 
I really like that you guys are introducing additional proof from scripture for prayers for the dead. Some of these I have never thought of. Thanks for starting this thread…it’s very informative! If you can reason from any other scriptures, please feel free to do so. 👍

Thank you,
JonathonOfOhio
 
Ridgerunner said:
God is not within the confines of time. All things that are, were and will be are in His mind. But for that, none would exist.

It is not absurd to imagine that God can, through the intercession of prayer, alter past events so that a man who would be unrepentant without God’s intercession in time, might become repentant.
Click to expand...
I add… Yes you are right.
Think…
God is outside of time…Prayers are heard by God!!
Your great grand father died in 1906… You can pray for his soul.

OR the reverse…
You have a ten year old son… You can pray for his soul… even though he might not die for thirty years after you have died!!

God is outside of time!

Dogknox
 
dogknox said:
More Scripture…
Matthew 9:18
While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, “My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.”

NOTE: The girl was “DEAD”!! The girl was not breathing, she was cold, gone from the body..She was DEAD!!

The father PETITIONS Jesus on his KNEES!! He asks Jesus on his KNEES to help his “DEAD” daughter!
He was interceding on behalf of the DEAD!!
**PROVING: **Jesus hears petition on behalf of the dead, from other people!!!
Praying for the dead is scriptural, it is expected of the living, to pray for the dead!

Catholic’s have ALWAYS prayed for the dead!
FACT: In the catacombs, on these first century tomes are inscribed; “Pray for my soul”! These First century Catholic’s prayed for their dead!

🙂
Click to expand...
Dogknox,
First, I want to thank you for bringing to light the prayer of the “ruler” for his dead daughter. It shines a further confirmation for me that prayer ofr the the dead is not unscriptural.

Next, I’d like to offer a link to “The Hope of Eternal Life”, a joint Lutheran Catholic dialogue document which, starting on page 56, gives a review of the views and concerns of prayer for the the dead during the Reformation era as well as current Lutheran - Catholic convergences on the subject. One might find it an intersting read.

usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

Thanks again,
Jon
 
JonNC said:
Dogknox,
First, I want to thank you for bringing to light the prayer of the “ruler” for his dead daughter. It shines a further confirmation for me that prayer ofr the the dead is not unscriptural.

Next, I’d like to offer a link to “The Hope of Eternal Life”, a joint Lutheran Catholic dialogue document which, starting on page 56, gives a review of the views and concerns of prayer for the the dead during the Reformation era as well as current Lutheran - Catholic convergences on the subject. One might find it an intersting read.

usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

Thanks again,
Jon
Click to expand...
JonNC I assume you are Lutheran, am I right?!
You claim you are “evangelical catholic”, small case “C”! Anglicans also claim to be “catholic” they say; “The other catholic church”!

I ask you, as I ask them; Why are you not “Catholic”, large case?

You claim to be catholic yet you have NO roots back to Christ!
The Anglican the same, no roots back to Christ!

Jesus never made any protestant churches… NOT one! You are protestant, you are in protest against the “Holy Catholic Church and Jesus”! Your roots go back to the sixteenth century, you can’t trace your roots back to Jesus! You are NOT in the body of Jesus, you are in protest against his body!

Yes you are separated brethren, “SEPARATED”!!! Not belonging to the whole!!

Dogknox
 
dogknox said:
JonNC I assume you are Lutheran, am I right?!
You claim you are “evangelical catholic”, small case “C”! Anglicans also claim to be “catholic” they say; “The other catholic church”!

I ask you, as I ask them; Why are you not “Catholic”, large case?

You claim to be catholic yet you have NO roots back to Christ!
The Anglican the same, no roots back to Christ!

Jesus never made any protestant churches… NOT one! You are protestant, you are in protest against the “Holy Catholic Church and Jesus”! Your roots go back to the sixteenth century, you can’t trace your roots back to Jesus! You are NOT in the body of Jesus, you are in protest against his body!

Yes you are separated brethren, “SEPARATED”!!! Not belonging to the whole!!

Dogknox
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And His peace to you, as well.

Oh, and btw, did you read my post?

Jon
 
there is also this scripture from maccabees though:

2 Maccabees
Chapter 12 42-46

Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;

for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.

But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
 
wiggbuggie said:
there is also this scripture from maccabees though:

2 Maccabees
Chapter 12 42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
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Yes 2 Maccabees is more proof the Old Testament peoples “prayed for the dead”!
Does not matter a hoot, if 2 Maccabees is scriptural, (it is scriptural) it proves these people believed in intersession for their dead!!

🙂
 
JonNC said:
And His peace to you, as well.

Oh, and btw, did you read my post?
Jon
Click to expand...
JonNC Yes I read your post…
Yes I read the “joint Lutheran Catholic dialogue document, starting on page 56”. It was interesting.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

**Note; **There is sin that does not kill… (from the above verse)
IF…
If a person was to die with a “Sin that does not kill” could the person enter heaven with this “SIN”?!

Note Luther said… (Paraphrase) “The man is covered over as with a white sheet, God does not see the putrid mess of sin, all he sees is the sheet”!

Luther was “TEACHING” sin is allowed into heaven!
Luther can’t TEACH a lick and at the same time also TEACH, all man needs is scriptures to find truth!

**JonNC ** Do you understand… It is NOT biblical to believe; “God allows sin into heaven”! Yet here is Luther TEACHING God does allow sin into heaven!
Luther wants you to think, you can pull a fast one on God and sneak into heaven under a sheet!

You are Lutheran because you are IN Protest against the Holy Catholic Church!!
You are in Protest against Jesus and his Holy Body!
You have hitched your wagon to the wrong horse!!

“Scriptures are all you need to find truth” is a “Man made TRADITION” it was started in the sixteenth century, it is NOT biblical it is NOT scriptural!

**THINK: **God would not make his Church with all of his AUTHORITY to TEACH all nations, then have that very church TEACH, you do not need to listen to the Church, all you need is the scriptures!

Dogknox
 
dogknox said:
JonNC Yes I read your post…
Yes I read the “joint Lutheran Catholic dialogue document, starting on page 56”. It was interesting.

Note Luther said… (Paraphrase) “The man is covered over as with a white sheet, God does not see the putrid mess of sin, all he sees is the sheet”!

**Luther was “TEACHING” sin is allowed into heaven!**Luther can’t TEACH a lick and at the same time also TEACH, all man needs is scriptures to find truth!

**JonNC ** Do you understand… It is NOT biblical to believe; “God allows sin into heaven”! Yet here is Luther TEACHING God does allow sin into heaven!
Luther wants you to think, you can pull a fast one on God and sneak into heaven under a sheet!

Dogknox
Click to expand...
If you still believe that Luther thought, or more importantly, that Lutherans think sin could enter Heaven , then I encourage you reread the document, including this part, particularly 5, 6, 7.
  1. Common Affirmations
  2. When misconceptions are stripped away and the continuing reflections of our churches are taken into account, the difference between our churches on the doctrine of purgatory is seen in a new light.
    Agreements
  3. Catholics and Lutherans agree:
  4. During this life, the justified “are not exempt from a lifelong struggle against the
    contradiction to God within the selfish desires of the old Adam (see Gal. 5:16; Rom. 7:7-10)” (JDDJ, 28; cf. Trent DS 1515 and 1690 and LC, Baptism, paras. 65-67236).
  5. This struggle is rightly described by a variety of categories: e.g., penitence,
    healing, daily dying and rising with Christ.
  6. Borne in Christ, the painful aspects of this struggle are a participation in Christ’s
    suffering and death. Catholic teachings call these pains temporal punishments; the Lutheran Confessions grant they can, “in a formal sense,”237 be called punishments.
  7. This ongoing struggle does not indicate an insufficiency in Christ’s saving work,
    but is an aspect of our being conformed to Christ and his saving work.238
    **5. The effects of sin in the justified are fully removed only as they die, undergo
    judgment, and encounter the purifying love of Christ. The justified are
    transformed from their condition at death to the condition with which they
    will be blessed in eternal glory. All, even martyrs and saints of the highest
    order, will find the encounter with the Risen Christ transformative in ways
    beyond human comprehension.
  8. Christ transforms those who enter into eternal life. This change is a work of
    God’s grace. It can be rightly understood as our final and perfect
    conformation to Christ (Phil 3:21). The fire of Christ’s love burns away all
    that is incompatible with living in the direct presence of God. It is the
    complete death of the old person, leaving only the new person in Christ.
  9. Scripture tells us little about the process of the transformation from this life to
    entrance into eternal life. Categories of space and time can be applied only
    analogously**.
Click to expand...
Jon
 
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