Prayers for the dead?

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I read about the verses from 2 Maccabeess on this website Can Souls in Purgatory Pray for Us? - Ascension Press Media

Please tell me what you think of my reasoning:

I see one problem here. The author of the text argues, if I’m correct, that what Judas did was the OT version of a Requiem Mass or a normal Mass with an intention for the deceased. A Requiem Mass is actually said for those who have already sad yes to God and are now in purgatory. Requiem Masses are not offered for those who are to have their judgement. You only say Requiem Masses for those in purgatory.
Judas wanted an offering for the sinners who were not already judged.
We have two different prayer for the dead. We pray for those who already have chosen heaven. Why pray that those will go to heaven will go to heaven?
Then we pray for those who are about to face their judgements. It is easier to understand why they would need our prayers. This type of prayer can only be said around the time of their death and not after their judgements.
 
It is good that you noted this. Are you admixing the OT and NT? No such thing as a mass in Judaism. That chapter documents the Jewish practice of prayer on behalf of the dead. However, we live under a new covenant and while our practice may be the same as far as intent, the theology behind each is quite different.

A good basic rule: In a 2,000 year old faith, when something seems to be problematic, doubt yourself first.
 
I am simply saying that we have two different prayers for the dead, for persons who is going to the judgement and for the persons in purgatory.
Those are different, right?
Judas made an offering for those who experiencing their judgments. They hadnt gone to purgatory yet.

When a persons ask a priest for a mass stipend on behalf of a deceased person it is only a prayer for less time in purgatory.
When you do the same offering at the time of a persons death it is a prayer for a persons experiencing his/her judgement. This prayer is more important as the person is about to make his/her modt important choice ever.
The prayer for the souls in purgatory is just an interesting pius tradition to me (but nothing more than that) as they will already go heaven. They already made their choice.
I mean we dont pray “may those in purgatory never end up in hell” since they already made their choice. Prayers for those in purgatory is just a pius tradition to me.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
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jesusmademe said:
Judas made an offering for those who experiencing their judgments. They hadnt gone to purgatory yet.
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The Particular Judgment is immediate. There is no waiting in line after death to be judged.
When you die the state of your soul at death means you are immediately condemned or saved.
 
Well, there was no purgatory in the old covenant. There was a “spirit prison” as Peter wrote about in his 1st letter. Why? Because the gates of heaven were closed. Judas Maccabeus must have known somehow that there was a “limbus” for the holy OT souls to abide in, until Christ ascended and opened the gates of heaven.
 
Prayers are outside time. While it’s good to pray for people during their life as St John Vianney said, you can pray today for somebody who died 100 years ago and God will apply the prayer at the time he sees fit as St. Padre Pio said.

We state our intention for the prayer to God and he applies it as he thinks best.

We don’t have to say special or different prayers for people who haven’t died yet as opposed to people in purgatory, the only restriction is you can’t earn an indulgence for someone who is still alive. So, indulgences aside, there aren’t “two different prayers.”
 
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So it is only after the death and ressurection of Jesus that people could go to purgatory?
If so, why no purgatory before that?
 
Yes but why do we pray? That someone will get to heaven? In my opinion yes.
Is it good to pray for someone in purgatpry so that they will end up in heaven and not hell? The souls in purgatory will never wnd up in hell so we need not pray for their salvation.
So why do then pray for the souls in purgatory? Arent we already sure they will end up in heaven?
So it’s nothing more than a pius tradition, right? Our prayers will not be much of a help since they already chose heaven. People never answer this question. They just pray as if it is obvious that prayinh for someone is so much more than kust helping someone choose heaven. It’s weird when you start thinking about it.
 
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Purgatory isn’t a pleasant place and souls there want our prayers. If you don’t think it’s important to pray for them, then that’s your opinion. I wouldn’t want my parent or spouse stuck in Purgatory when a prayer from me could get them into heaven. When you’ve actually lost a loved one and are wondering where they are, this takes on great importance.
 
We have no way of knowing who is in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (yes, there are exceptions, but most of the time this is correct).
And so we offer up prayers just in case.
 
jesusmademe said:
So why do then pray for the souls in purgatory? Arent we already sure they will end up in heaven?
So it’s nothing more than a pius tradition, right? Our prayers will not be much of a help since they already chose heaven.
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The term Suffering Souls is a clue. We pray that their time in Purgatory - however that ‘time’ is actualised - be shortened.

We also pray that they are provided succour during their time of seperation from God.

We have no way to comprehend the full extent of how these prayers help but given that sin & repeated disorientation of the will likely make it harder & harder to say yes to God, our prayers may perhaps help them make that final, crucial decision.
 
Souls in purgatory dont really need prayers like we need it. I mean, we have a choice to make. They have no choice to make.
It seems to me that the reason why we pray is for salvation. How is it that the souls in purgatory need our prayer if they already made their choice and accepted Jesus? I am not saying that we should not pray for them. I am just a person who likes to know the reason for the things we do.
 
jesusmademe said:
Souls in purgatory dont really need prayers like we need it.
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You’re missing the point that praying for souls in purgatory greatly benefits us living here on earth too. First, we are praying.
Second, we are doing a spiritual work of mercy.
Third, assuming we’re in a state of grace we are accumulating merit for our act of praying for the holy souls.
Fourth, if the soul we are praying for is a loved one, or the group of souls includes loved ones, we are renewing our connection to them and helping our own peace of mind.

If you yourself want to just pray for living people on earth, that’s your choice. You’re free to direct your prayers in that way. You can do your private devotion however you like.
But the Church has always taught that it’s a holy and good and beneficial thing to pray for the dead. So those of us who wish to do that, maybe because everybody we love is dead, should be able to do it without dismissive comments from you.

Ideally we pray for BOTH the living and the dead and then everybody is covered and we don’t have to have these petty debates about which one is better.

It will be the supreme irony if you one day end up kn Purgatory and nobody prays for you. Then you can see firsthand what it’s like.

I’m muting this thread now as it seems to me you’ve received lots of good answers.
 
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What you are saying is that the notion that prayer is all about helping a person accept Jesus at his judgement doesn’t give the full reason why we pray?
I mean, we not only say “Lord, give the spiritual bread to the poor” but we even say “Lord, give earthly food to the poor”.
Do the poor really need earthly food in order to get to heaven? Not really.
And the souls in purgatory are in fact called poor (the poor souls).

Then my second question was: if I ask for a Mass stipend for a person will it have any effect on his choice at his judgement or will it only shorten his time in purgatory?
I thought one of the reasons why one wanted a funeral asap after the death was that prayers had to be said before the person made the choice of heaven or hell.
What does the Church say about this?

I am not the guy who will just pray because we have traditions. I wanna pray with my whole heart and mind.
 
jesusmademe said:
will it have any effect on his choice at his judgement
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A person’s choice is made while they are alive. Judgement is once they have died. Once they are dead their destination is sealed based on the state of their soul at death. Nothing after death affects where they go.
 
So only prayers for those still on earth has any effect on the choice???
Are you really saying that?
Has the Church stated that?
 
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If someone is in purgatory, they cannot be in hell and there is no way they would ever get there.

The root of the term “purgatory” is “purge”; whatever one’s failings are in this life are due to their incomplete will to do good and follow Christ; and when they die, most people are likely to still have that predilection or tendency to sin. It is that which needs to be purged.

so, for example; if someone in this life is cross wioth others and always belittling them it is highly lijk=kely they ar that way - tending towards that - at the moment of death. that needs to be purged.

Changing a habit is hard and difficult, as anyone who has ever tried to do so, can tell you. there is pain - not necessarily physical, but pain nonetheless, in the trying. And purgatory, as it cleanses us, is painful.

We have no way of determining whether the souls in purgatory need out prayers more than those still alive. Countless saints, and the Church all urge us to pray for those in purgatory; and doing so in no way prevents us for praying for the living.

And as a matter of fact, the poor may well need earthly food to get to heaven; lacking that can cause not only pain, but wrong choices.

The choice of heaven or hell is made while you are alive; once dead, you are judged.

You might want to buy a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or a Compendium of it, as the questions you ask are answered there.
 
jesusmademe said:
So only prayers for those still on earth has any effect on the choice???
Are you really saying that?
Has the Church stated that?
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Your choice of condemnation (Hell) or salvation (Heaven or first to Purgatory) is made prior to death. After death there is no chance to repent and be saved.
Yes, that is an infallible teaching of the Church. If you die in a state of mortal sin you go IMMEDIATELY to Hell. If you die in a state of grace you are IMMEDIATELY saved (straight to Heaven or Purgatory first).
Everyone in Purgatory is saved with their next step Heaven. Nobody in Purgatory goes to Hell.
 
jesusmademe said:
So only prayers for those still on earth has any effect on the choice???
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No. The prayers we say for the dead will have aided that person in their life, or in purgatory… even though they are already dead. God is outside of time. We don’t know who has died without repentence, we don’t know whose sins are mortal. If we knew for certain that a particular person died in mortal sin without repentence, then the prayers would be ineffective for that person, but we don’t.
 
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Does the Church teach if nobody were to pray for the souls in purgatory they would still end up in Heaven?
Prayets for the holy soul is all about helping them shortening the time in Purgatory?
I remember reading that the Church dont formally ask the souls in Purgatory to intercede for us. I did hear a Priest mention that asking them for prayers is very good as they suffer. Suffering people have much to offer God.
Why dont we formally ask them for intercession?
 
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