Prayers OF or FROM the dead

[sixofseven]

Hi there,

I’m trying to find some scriptural evidence of the deceased praying for those who are still living.

I understand all about the communion of saints and intercessory prayer (us asking them to pray for us) but I can’t find anything on the prayers of the dead.

Basically, a non-catholic said to me that the deceased are detached from us here on earth and only know of the glory of heaven, so they can’t and don’t think of or pray for us. How sad

The bible passage that first came to my mind to support the catholic teaching was the rich man asking Abraham to send Lazurus back to his brothers - he therefore WAS thinking of his family back on earth after his own death and wanting to help them avoid the place of torment. Is there anything else?

Thanks in advance…

 

[Melkite_Sword]

Hi there,

I’m trying to find some scriptural evidence of the deceased praying for those who are still living.

I understand all about the communion of saints and intercessory prayer (us asking them to pray for us) but I can’t find anything on the prayers of the dead.

Basically, a non-catholic said to me that the deceased are detached from us here on earth and only know of the glory of heaven, so they can’t and don’t think of or pray for us. How sad

The bible passage that first came to my mind to support the catholic teaching was the rich man asking Abraham to send Lazurus back to his brothers - he therefore WAS thinking of his family back on earth after his own death and wanting to help them avoid the place of torment. Is there anything else?

Thanks in advance…

Revelation 5:7-8

“7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders (people of God in heaven) fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Christians on earth).”

The 24 elders represent the people of God of the old and new covenant, the 12 patriarchs of the old covenant and the 12 apostles of the new covenant, Israel and the Church. If I’m not mistaken, the four living creatures are angels. they are offering the prayers of the people of God on earth to God himself.

Revelation 8:3-4

" 3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand."

An angel interceding.

Hebrews 12:1

" 1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

The communion of saints watching those on earth run the race, they had once ran. (they care). The greek word used here for witnesses is ‘martus’, this is where ‘martyr’ is derived.

Peace

 

[sixofseven]

Revelation 5:7-8

“7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders (people of God in heaven) fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Christians on earth).”

The 24 elders represent the people of God of the old and new covenant, the 12 patriarchs of the old covenant and the 12 apostles of the new covenant, Israel and the Church. If I’m not mistaken, the four living creatures are angels. they are offering the prayers of the people of God on earth to God himself.

Revelation 8:3-4

" 3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand."

An angel interceding.

Hebrews 12:1

" 1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

The communion of saints watching those on earth run the race, they had once ran. (they care). The greek word used here for witnesses is ‘martus’, this is where ‘martyr’ is derived.

Peace

Thanks Melkite Sword,

The first quote I know well, but as the ‘prayers of the saints’ are the prayers of Christians on earth, it doesn’t quite support what I’m looking for - that is, prayers of the deceased.

The second quote though, ‘clouds of witnesses’ is great, thank you!

 

[NHInsider]

Also Rev. 6:9-11 in which the souls of martyrs, which are sheltered under the Heavenly altar, cry out to the Lord.

 

[PeterRabbit]

creepy

 

[losh14]

Let’s sum this up:

If the saints and marytrs in Heaven pray, it cannot be for anything for themselves for they lack nothing. Nor is it prayer in the form of worship, for they are at the very altar of the Lord. Their prayers can only be for the living.

 

[GrahamAPhone]

Thanks Melkite Sword,

The first quote I know well, but as the ‘prayers of the saints’ are the prayers of Christians on earth, it doesn’t quite support what I’m looking for - that is, prayers of the deceased.

anyone in heaven is a saint. If their in heaven, their dead. (well… for the most part, except God and Jesus and the Angels and what not…)

 

[sixofseven]

Let’s sum this up:

If the saints and marytrs in Heaven pray, it cannot be for anything for themselves for they lack nothing. Nor is it prayer in the form of worship, for they are at the very altar of the Lord. Their prayers can only be for the living.

my edit in bold

I agree, and I think I could use this as a line of questioning if my non-catholic friend raises it again, but to support this line of thinking I think I will need to provide them with some scriptual evidence that saints and martyrs in heaven do actually pray - therefore supporting the faith of Catholics who ask them to pray for us.

I also recall something about there being more rejoicing in heaven over one person on earth repenting… so that would mean that they in heaven are aware of what’s happening on earth, right? Does anyone know where this is in Scripture?

 

[sixofseven]

anyone in heaven is a saint. If their in heaven, their dead. (well… for the most part, except God and Jesus and the Angels and what not…)

Very true. My argument to my friend was that they are in fact alive, more alive than we are because they are in the presence of the Lord - and because they are right there with him, they have more ‘access’ to him, more audience with him so that is why we ask them to pray for us, to Christ and God the Father, on our behalf.

My other argument was that through our baptism we are all members of the Body of Christ - something which cannot be divided or separated (the foot cannot say to the hand, I don’t need you - or whatever that Scripture ref is, I need to brush up on my quoting skills), so that is why we still pray with and for the dead.

My friend just seemed to think that once you die, you no longer care about what’s going on in this wicked world.

 

[crazzeto]

You’re thinking about this all wrong:

Matthew 22:
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=22&l=32&f=s#x

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Anyone not in hell has not tasted death, rather they are more alive than we here on earth. The death of the body can not seperate you from the body of Christ, nothing can seperate you from the body of Christ. As protestants like to remind us Catholics:

38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thus our brothers in Heaven (and purgatory) can most certainly pray for us, for they are not separated from Christ.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I honestly think our loved ones look after us after they pass on. I often wonder about the use of praying for souls in Purgatory, as they are much closer to God than us in this wicked world, although I do pray for them to reach Heaven. But I think they are more interested in us than we are in them, and they remember us more than we remember them.

 

[sixofseven]

You’re thinking about this all wrong:

Matthew 22:
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=22&l=32&f=s#x

Anyone not in hell has not tasted death, rather they are more alive than we here on earth. The death of the body can not seperate you from the body of Christ, nothing can seperate you from the body of Christ. As protestants like to remind us Catholics:

Thus our brothers in Heaven (and purgatory) can most certainly pray for us, for they are not separated from Christ.

I think you and I are thinking exactly the same way - see above, we must have replied at the same time.

I suppose in order to talk with my friend I’m looking for a solid reference that says they do pray for us.

Purgatory is a whole other topic that I know I might get into with my friend if we discuss this again…more study methinks!

 

[sixofseven]

I honestly think our loved ones look after us after they pass on. I often wonder about the use of praying for souls in Purgatory, as they are much closer to God than us in this wicked world, although I do pray for them to reach Heaven. But I think they are more interested in us than we are in them, and they remember us more than we remember them.

Yes I quite often think of the souls in Purgatory and ask God to have mercy on them, especially the many young people I have known who have died.

My friend’s father died a few years ago, I always ask him to join me in my prayers for my friend and her family - although if she knew I’m sure she wouldn’t be too impressed!

 

[GrahamAPhone]

Very true. My argument to my friend was that they are in fact alive, more alive than we are because they are in the presence of the Lord - and because they are right there with him, they have more ‘access’ to him, more audience with him so that is why we ask them to pray for us, to Christ and God the Father, on our behalf.

My other argument was that through our baptism we are all members of the Body of Christ - something which cannot be divided or separated (the foot cannot say to the hand, I don’t need you - or whatever that Scripture ref is, I need to brush up on my quoting skills), so that is why we still pray with and for the dead.

My friend just seemed to think that once you die, you no longer care about what’s going on in this wicked world.

amen
our God is the god of the LIVING, not of the dead

 

[crazzeto]

I think you and I are thinking exactly the same way - see above, we must have replied at the same time.

I suppose in order to talk with my friend I’m looking for a solid reference that says they do pray for us.

Purgatory is a whole other topic that I know I might get into with my friend if we discuss this again…more study methinks!

Well, once we come to the conclusion that they can pray for us, and when we realize that the people we are talking about have entered ever lasting life with God in heaven. What makes you think they won’t pray for you? Are you saying that you think that people go to heaven and all of the sudden stop carying about us living folk here on earth? Does that even make sense?

I guess that would be my response.

 

[57classic]

I honestly think our loved ones look after us after they pass on. I often wonder about the use of praying for souls in Purgatory, as they are much closer to God than us in this wicked world, although I do pray for them to reach Heaven. But I think they are more interested in us than we are in them, and they remember us more than we remember them.

Just as I regularly ask the saints to help me with family matters, as I pray for my family in Purgatory, I also ask for their help with the same problems…some of those problems have been caused by those same family members that I hope are in Purgatory and they certainly have a better understanding of the situation than I do and they have God’s ear to boot.

 

[sixofseven]

Well, once we come to the conclusion that they can pray for us, and when we realize that the people we are talking about have entered ever lasting life with God in heaven. What makes you think they won’t pray for you?

Yes, it’s that conclusion that I’m looking for!

Are you saying that you think that people go to heaven and all of the sudden stop carying about us living folk here on earth? Does that even make sense?

This is exactly what my friend thinks! That once they have entered the Kingdom, they no longer look back on the wicked world becasue they are in Paradise. I suppose it is a comfort for her to think that they can ‘walk away’ from the wicked world and not look back and just enjoy being with God, but I get much more comfort knowing that my family and friends in purgatory and heaven are praying for me to finish the race!

It makes me sad to think my friend doesn’t believe this, it feels so lonely to me.

 

[sixofseven]

What about Hebrews 11 - before the author says we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12, they talk about those gone before us and what they did in faith

Hebrews 11
By Faith
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for…13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them…39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Hebrews 12 1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

Heb 12:14-16 - do you think this could be where the thinking comes from - that these people who have died did not care about the world and only about being in heaven?

 

[grandfather]

There is only one Church. It is the Church Jesus founded and its members are here on earth as well as those who have gone before us. There is not one Church in heaven and a Church on earth. We are one body, the Body of Christ. We are joined and in communion. The bond of this communion is love. God is love. In any communion something is exchanged. In the communion of saints love is exchanged. That means we will the good of one another.

Ask your friend if his mother dies, or child, or spouse if he stops loving that person. Love is more powerful than death. Love conquers death. Those who go before us continue to have wills. They are completely one with the will of God. God wills our salvation and so do the ones who have gone ahead of us. We still love them and they still love us.

If your friend denies this he has no understanding of love.

 

[sixofseven]

There is only one Church. It is the Church Jesus founded and its members are here on earth as well as those who have gone before us. There is not one Church in heaven and a Church on earth. We are one body, the Body of Christ. We are joined and in communion. The bond of this communion is love. God is love. In any communion something is exchanged. In the communion of saints love is exchanged. That means we will the good of one another.

Ask your friend if his mother dies, or child, or spouse if he stops loving that person. Love is more powerful than death. Love conquers death. Those who go before us continue to have wills. They are completely one with the will of God. God wills our salvation and so do the ones who have gone ahead of us. We still love them and they still love us.

If your friend denies this he has no understanding of love.

Wow. I love this explanation, thank you! In my short response to my friend I said that we are all part of the Body of Christ which cannot be separated, but this really takes it up a notch. I really appreciate this.