Prayers OF or FROM the dead

[grandfather]

Wow. I love this explanation, thank you! In my short response to my friend I said that we are all part of the Body of Christ which cannot be separated, but this really takes it up a notch. I really appreciate this.

What I have personally found is that intellectual explanations of doctrine are helpful, but insufficient to cause people to change. You can convince people or make clear one doctrine or another and answer all their objections, but they remain separated.

The most powerful witness is the witness of love. Love conquers everything. It is irresistable. All of our souls are won by the love of God, moreso than intellectual awareness. We can’t dismiss the mental knowledge part, but the heart rules.

You can win all the debates and never lose, but never see a convert. I know many converts. They all go through the mental exercises, but the witness of the saints lives who gave themselves for others as Jesus did, or the witness of someone they know, makes the real difference.

 

[adriancombe]

2Pe 1:13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder,

2Pe 1:14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.

2Pe 1:15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

Here the first Pope makes clear he knows he will be able to affect the goings on of this world even after his ‘exodus’.

 

[panevino]

luke 16:23 kjv And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame…
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

so someone in hell got to ask for assistance of his family on earth…

He did not get his request though. But he got to ask…
I assume someone in a better position than hell may have some hope of a better response to the request.

Also some martys in revelation ask lord for avenging… And even ask when… Implying awareness of matters on earth… They are told to wait.
rev 6:10 kjv
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

 

[kepha1]

Let me get this straight. Protestants believe that as an eternal reward and being “more alive in Christ than on earth”, we are rendered deaf, dumb and blind to the affairs of the earth.

right…

…and I am still trying to find “dead saint” in the Bible.

Catholicism’s vision of the community is not confined even by time and space. Being Catholic means membership in a community that goes beyond this world. The traditional term for this is “the communion of saints.” We belong to a community that exists in both time and eternity. This is why, for example, we pray for one another in this world, but we also ask those who have passed through death into eternal life to pray for us, as well. We ask the saints to pray for us, of course. But we may also ask departed loved ones to pray for us because we all continue to participate in the life of the one community of faith that is both in and beyond time and space.
Being Catholic means to accept the ancient Christian mystery that the church, the community of faith, is the first and most basic “sacrament” of Christ’s presence in our midst. The faith community of the church is, in the words of Saint Paul, the body of Christ. Thus: “Now you [plural “you”] are the body of Christ and individually members of it” (1 Corinthians 12:27).

If we are not one with the family of God in heaven, how can Christ be in our midst? Rejection of the communion of saints is a man-made tradition, and the family of God is not a broken home.

 

[Todd_Easton]

I’m trying to find some scriptural evidence of the deceased praying for those who are still living.

In 2 Maccabees 15:11-14, a dream or vision “worthy of belief” that Judas Maccabeus had is described in which he saw two righteous dead men (the former high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah) praying for the living.

 

[crazzeto]

Yes, it’s that conclusion that I’m looking for!

This is exactly what my friend thinks! That once they have entered the Kingdom, they no longer look back on the wicked world becasue they are in Paradise. I suppose it is a comfort for her to think that they can ‘walk away’ from the wicked world and not look back and just enjoy being with God, but I get much more comfort knowing that my family and friends in purgatory and heaven are praying for me to finish the race!

It makes me sad to think my friend doesn’t believe this, it feels so lonely to me.

If this was the case, they simply would not be ritchous, and they would not be in heaven. As Paul tells us:

drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?t=2&q=faith+as+to+move+mountains&b=drb

2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

 

[grandfather]

luke 16:23 kjv And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame…
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

so someone in hell got to ask for assistance of his family on earth…

He did not get his request though. But he got to ask…
I assume someone in a better position than hell may have some hope of a better response to the request.

Also some martys in revelation ask lord for avenging… And even ask when… Implying awareness of matters on earth… They are told to wait.
rev 6:10 kjv
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

In hell there is no love, not a shred. No one wills the good of another being. I don’t know what translation you used, but the rich man, by caring for the well being of others and asking God to spare his brothers torment, was showing love for his brothers. In hell there is no hope. The man in the fire asked God for relief of his thirst, meaning he prayed, he hoped that his pains would be diminished. He could not have been in hell, a place where the torments are eternal with no hope for change, or where no one prasys to God for anything, much less other souls. Where then was this man in fire?

 

[cheeto1]

In hell there is no love, not a shred. No one wills the good of another being. I don’t know what translation you used, but the rich man, by caring for the well being of others and asking God to spare his brothers torment, was showing love for his brothers. In hell there is no hope. The man in the fire asked God for relief of his thirst, meaning he prayed, he hoped that his pains would be diminished. He could not have been in hell, a place where the torments are eternal with no hope for change, or where no one prasys to God for anything, much less other souls. Where then was this man in fire?

Sir, because of this story in Luke, I have been wondering for many years if there is
love in hell, or even if a savior would one day be sent to hell. In your explanation, he is
clearly in purgatory, but what of the statement Jesus once made that “even sinners
love those who love them”? If so, then what happens to the love if someone ends in
hell? So now after your explanation, I wonder if those in purgatory pray to the saints?
I thought they were in a place where they couldn’t pray.

 

[grandfather]

Sir, because of this story in Luke, I have been wondering for many years if there is
love in hell, or even if a savior would one day be sent to hell. In your explanation, he is
clearly in purgatory, but what of the statement Jesus once made that “even sinners
love those who love them”? If so, then what happens to the love if someone ends in
hell? So now after your explanation, I wonder if those in purgatory pray to the saints?
I thought they were in a place where they couldn’t pray.

I am not sure we have certainty about what the souls in purgatory can do. In other words, I am not sure if it is settled matter, or remains opinion.

It is accepted that the souls in purgatory can not pray for themselves, yet the rich man asked Father Abraham for relief of his thirst, by sending Lazarus from the comforts of heaven to put a drop of water on his parched tongue.

Even if the holy souls in purgatory can not pray for themselves and our prayers help them, that does not mean they can not pray for us. We are in a communion of love.

Scripture is not clear on hell. Clearly Jesus says there is a place of the eternally lost. He also says that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church built on Peter.

We miss something there. We envision us being attacked by demonic forces to destroy us. Gates do not attack anything. They are the entry to a place and are shut and defended to keep enemies out and captives in. So we could speculate the the Church will attack hell and destroy it and its power and set free those bound there. This is a wild speculation.

We are called to pray for all souls and love them. The spector of hell is so terrible we do not wish anyone that fate. There are two prayers taught to us in modern times by heaven. At Fatima the angel taught the children to add a prayer to the Rosary. “O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Lead ALL souls to heaven, especially those most in need of your Mercy”. The other is the Chaplet of Divine Mercy that Jesus gave to Saint Faustina. “Eternal Father, we offer you the body, blood, soul and divinity of your dearly beloved Son, in atonement for our sins and those of the WHOLE WORLD. For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the WHOLE WORLD”.

So the faithful have said that new prayer in the Rosary billions of times, as taught by an archangel. We ask for the slavation of all. We also ask in the Chaplet for mercy on all.

Heaven told us to pray for this. Will heaven answer our prayer?

 

[panevino]

In hell there is no love, not a shred. No one wills the good of another being. I don’t know what translation you used, but the rich man, by caring for the well being of others and asking God to spare his brothers torment, was showing love for his brothers. In hell there is no hope. The man in the fire asked God for relief of his thirst, meaning he prayed, he hoped that his pains would be diminished. He could not have been in hell, a place where the torments are eternal with no hope for change, or where no one prasys to God for anything, much less other souls. Where then was this man in fire?

yeah I used the KJV.
I checked 2 versions I have on my phone they. Both say hell in luke 16:23.
In Luke 16:27-28 he does ask Abraham to warn his brothers on earth.

I only posted the verse to show example of deceased person praying for someone on earth.

 

[grandfather]

yeah I used the KJV.
I checked 2 versions I have on my phone they. Both say hell in luke 16:23.
In Luke 16:27-28 he does ask Abraham to warn his brothers on earth.

I only posted the verse to show example of deceased person praying for someone on earth.

I am in my office where I only have a NAB. It says “from the abode of the dead he cried out.” I’ll check others when I get home later.

 

[grandfather]

I am in my office where I only have a NAB. It says “from the abode of the dead he cried out.” I’ll check others when I get home later.

RSV has it:

“and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes,”

 

[grandfather]

RSV has it:

“and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes,”

Jerusalem Bible say:

'In his torment in Hades he looked up and saw "

 

[sixofseven]

I’m getting some insights from a Christadelphian (same as my friend) on the ‘Nature of Christ’ thread in non-Catholic forum.

Quote from steveyb3: Christadelphians pray only to the Father, through the Mediatorship of Jesus Christ. He makes intercession for his disciples. (Isaiah 53:12, 1 Tim 2:5). We do not pray to the dead as the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:4,5, Daniel 12:2). They are in a state of sleep. The responsible will be raised by Christ at his return (1 Thes 4:16). The judgement and resurrection do not happen until Christ returns. Christadelphians do not believe believers go to Heaven when you die. The Kingdom of God is upon the earth. (Daniel 2:35, Rev 11:15, Gen 13:15, Acts 1:6, Isaiah 2:2, Isaiah 11:6 etc).

 

[jmcrae]

my edit in bold

I agree, and I think I could use this as a line of questioning if my non-catholic friend raises it again, but to support this line of thinking I think I will need to provide them with some scriptual evidence that saints and martyrs in heaven do actually pray - therefore supporting the faith of Catholics who ask them to pray for us.

I also recall something about there being more rejoicing in heaven over one person on earth repenting… so that would mean that they in heaven are aware of what’s happening on earth, right? Does anyone know where this is in Scripture?

Off the top of my head I’m thinking somewhere in Luke 15. I think it’s at the end of the story of the Lost Sheep.

 

[sixofseven]

Off the top of my head I’m thinking somewhere in Luke 15. I think it’s at the end of the story of the Lost Sheep.

Ah yes, Luke 15

3Then Jesus told them this parable: 4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then **he calls his friends and neighbors **together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7I tell you that **in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents **than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Thanks jmcrae!

 

[adriancombe]

In hell there is no love, not a shred. No one wills the good of another being. I don’t know what translation you used, but the rich man, by caring for the well being of others and asking God to spare his brothers torment, was showing love for his brothers. In hell there is no hope. The man in the fire asked God for relief of his thirst, meaning he prayed, he hoped that his pains would be diminished. He could not have been in hell, a place where the torments are eternal with no hope for change, or where no one prasys to God for anything, much less other souls. Where then was this man in fire?

FWIW, I confirm this is exactly what Scott Hahn said in class regarding this passage.