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Cristian_B
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Could you be more specific?
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crazzeto
Guest
The Church, being the upholder and foundation of the truth. The admition, in the bible, that one can not understand scripture with out a teacher. Peter’s warning, about the ignorant twisting scripture to their own destruction.
Read the scripture, please offer a commentary on how you interpet this. How all this scripture meshes with your ideas that the bible interpets it’s self. Because if that was the case, all these portions of scripture should not be possible.
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LionHeart777
Guest
Fair Lady,
Didn’t Moses intercede on behalf of Israel when he was righteous and the people had sinned?*
Didn’t God say he would spare Sodom and Gomorah had there been a certain number of righteous in the city?*
*I believe that I got these excellent points from Robert Sungenis while surfing his website (catholicintl.com/)
Is it possible that the righteous can obtain pardon from God for the unrighteous? I think the above are two examples that show they can.
Saint James writes in Scripture:
“16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” (James 5: 16) (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+5:16) (Accessed 2/ 19/ 20) (Emphasis mine)
I think your hangup lies in the fact that you believe that the Saints in Heaven cannot pray for the living.
The Early Church, however, did not have this hangup, and you can see strong evidence of that here in the words of Saints: Gregory of Nazianz, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, Ambrose of Milan, Jerome and Augustine.
peace
Didn’t Moses intercede on behalf of Israel when he was righteous and the people had sinned?*
Didn’t God say he would spare Sodom and Gomorah had there been a certain number of righteous in the city?*
*I believe that I got these excellent points from Robert Sungenis while surfing his website (catholicintl.com/)
Is it possible that the righteous can obtain pardon from God for the unrighteous? I think the above are two examples that show they can.
Saint James writes in Scripture:
“16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” (James 5: 16) (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+5:16) (Accessed 2/ 19/ 20) (Emphasis mine)
I think your hangup lies in the fact that you believe that the Saints in Heaven cannot pray for the living.
The Early Church, however, did not have this hangup, and you can see strong evidence of that here in the words of Saints: Gregory of Nazianz, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, Ambrose of Milan, Jerome and Augustine.
peace
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Cristian_B
Guest
*]Moses was on Earth, not in Heaven.
*]We already have an intercessor, and that is Jesus.
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LionHeart777
Guest
Christian,
“1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;” (1 Timothy 2: 1) ([1 - - Bible Gateway Timothy+2&version=KJV](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Timothy+2&version=KJV)) (Accesed 2/ 19/ 10)
- Please read my post again and click the link I provided.
- True Jesus intercedes for us and is our High Priest, but does this mean that you do not intercede for others? Or ask others to intercede for you?
“1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;” (1 Timothy 2: 1) ([1 - - Bible Gateway Timothy+2&version=KJV](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Timothy+2&version=KJV)) (Accesed 2/ 19/ 10)
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crazzeto
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Cristian,
Do you have any actual answers for the many questions posed to you? In this case about Moses, and about us being intercessors for eachother? How about my questions about scriptures? I provided 5 passages in scripture which clearly demonstrate how:- Scripture does not interpet it’s self
- The bible alone, is a non-biblical theology
Referencing another thread, are you so sure protistantism isn’t a house built on sand? If you are having so many difficulties defending it’s core teachings via the scriptures?
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Cristian_B
Guest
I see. I am not having difficulties. I just suppose that someone already said those things in this thread, so just re-reading it would do the work.
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crazzeto
Guest
Then why have you not provided a post#? On the Catholic side we’ve been pretty good about providing at least that much
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crazzeto
Guest
So I decided to read all of today’s responsorial psalm for my own edification (51 hebrew / 50 sept) and I found it most interesting regarding the subject of original sin:
drbo.org/chapter/21050.htm
1 Unto the end, a psalm of David, 2 When Nathan the prophet came to him after he had sinned with Bethsabee. 3 Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy great mercy. And according to the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my iniquity. 4 Wash me yet more from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 5 For I know my iniquity, and my sin is always before me.
6 To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee: that thou mayst be justified in thy words and mayst overcome when thou art judged. 7 For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me. 8 For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me. 9 Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow. 10 To my hearing thou shalt give joy and gladness: and the bones that have been humbled shall rejoice.
11 Turn away thy face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. 12 Create a clean heart in me, O God: and renew a right spirit within my bowels. 13 Cast me not away from thy face; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 14 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, and strengthen me with a perfect spirit. 15 I will teach the unjust thy ways: and the wicked shall be converted to thee.
16 Deliver me from blood, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall extol thy justice. 17 O Lord, thou wilt open my lips: and my mouth shall declare thy praise. 18 For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it: with burnt offerings thou wilt not be delighted. 19 A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 20 Deal favourably, O Lord, in thy good will with Sion; that the walls of Jerusalem may be built up.
21 Then shalt thou accept the sacrifice of justice, oblations and whole burnt offerings: then shall they lay calves upon thy altar.
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LionHeart777
Guest
what a coincidence
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LittleSoldier
Guest
My goodness, would you look at that…
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crazzeto
Guest
For those interested, the protestant KJV renders:
{51:5} Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me.
Sorry I can’t provide KJV links, I get this all out of a free PDF download.
{51:5} Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me.
Sorry I can’t provide KJV links, I get this all out of a free PDF download.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
I don’t tend to do a lot of Marian devotions but I do pray the rosary. I’ve had some interesting things happen with rosaries. Back in 1988, I went with some friends on a pilgrimage. The Jesus on the cross of my rosary inexplicably turned blood red color while I was there.
Then, more recently, just last year when I started praying the rosary again, I had something else happen. I got a rosary as a gift from someone who went on a pilgrimage to the same place. So I started to use the rosary and while I was praying I had a thought that I would like to go to this particular city tomorrow so I could listen to some catholic teaching in the car on the way there. The very next day a machine broke down in that city and of all the technicians I was chosen to go there and fix it. I figure it’s about a 1/90 chance the machine would break down on that day and I would get chosen. But then to add the chance that I would have thought of going to that city prior while I was praying the rosary makes it seem like an answer to prayer and a confirmation to me that I should be praying the rosary.
Then, more recently, just last year when I started praying the rosary again, I had something else happen. I got a rosary as a gift from someone who went on a pilgrimage to the same place. So I started to use the rosary and while I was praying I had a thought that I would like to go to this particular city tomorrow so I could listen to some catholic teaching in the car on the way there. The very next day a machine broke down in that city and of all the technicians I was chosen to go there and fix it. I figure it’s about a 1/90 chance the machine would break down on that day and I would get chosen. But then to add the chance that I would have thought of going to that city prior while I was praying the rosary makes it seem like an answer to prayer and a confirmation to me that I should be praying the rosary.
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Soutane
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I suggest that Fair Lady read Scott hahn’s book Hail Holy Queen.She’s really labouring inder a plethotra of Fundamentalist error.W
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cathguy
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Our lady plays a very important role in our salvation.
She says “yes” to the God, and makes it possible therefore for Him to become one of us.
Always remember this: the Marian doctrines of the Church and NOT Marian so much as they are Christological. We believe what we believe about Mary because we believe Jesus is God.
The protestants teach that Mary must be sinful like us. But the Bible clearly shows that God is sinless, and Jesus is sinless, and that nothing imperfect can be united with God (see Revelation and other places). Therefore, for God to be in union with a human person the way a baby in the womb is in communion with its mother, the human mother would NEED to be sinless. This isn’t a belief we have because of an inappropriate belief about Mary… its a belief we have because of what we believe about Jesus Christ i.e. that he is 100% God and 100% man.
In fact, EVERY Marian doctrine and devotion that is true is Christological.
When protestants attack Mary, they actually attack Jesus, but in their ignorance they know not what they do.
As for the prayers above, I didn’t recognize a single one of them. However, I have no doubt people said them.
Authentic Marian prayer always asks for her intercession. That said, Mary is a real person, and is very much alive, and is the person in history who brought Jesus Christ into the world. Therefore, it makes real sense to fly to her. She will only help people find Jesus. Not keep them away. “Do whatever he tells you.”
Peace!
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Cristian_B
Guest
Are you saying God is incapable of something? Anyway, there is a fail in logic here:
*]Jesus was born in a world of sin.
*]Jesus drank with sinners.
*]Jesus ate with sinners.
*]Jesus was friends with sinners.
*]Jesus bore the sins of the whole world on Him.
After doing so many things with sinners, you’re telling me that He cannot be born of a sinner (a person who sinned at least once in his life)?
One reason He hid His glory from us is that we would not die because of the light of His glory. It says in the Bible that at the end of the world the wicked will not be able to endure His brightness and His glory. The reason He hid His glory is that the sinners will not die when they see Him. This way, since He hid His glory, He could be born in a sinful world. Jesus could and He was born of a woman who sinned at least once in her life.
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cathguy
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No… Allow me to ask a question:
Is God capable of sin? Is God capable of lying? Is God capable of deceit?
Are YOU saying he is capable of these things?
If you accuse me of a fallacy of logic it would be helpful to know which fallacy I am guilty of, and where it is. This is merely an unsubstantiated statement.
I cede these points. However, a baby in the womb is not connected to the mother in the mere fashion of hanging out with people. Your comparison is troubling therefore on two levels.- It seems to minimize the mother child relationship emotionally
- It certainly minimizes pregnancy physically.
I think I covered this already. Yes, that is what I am saying.
Sure… I agree with this. Although please do not forget that he was not just God, he was also 100% man.
Also, don’t forget the transfiguration.
However, none of this changes the fact that he was carried in Mary’s womb. This is a unique relationship. Are you saying it isn’t?
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adstrinity
Guest
That is correct. God was intermingling with these people but He was never dependent on any of them. The wages of sin is death. If Mary sinned, since everything a mother does affects the baby, this would affect the Baby. Sin killed Jesus, how much more would it had killed Him in utero if His own Mother, who is His life support, sinned? I can be born in China, I can drink with Chinese, I can eat with Chinese, I can be friends with Chinese, I can be accused by others for things the Chinese did and yet, stil killed by the Chinese; it doesn’t mean that my mom was Chinese.
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Kay_Cee
Guest
I hate to tell you this, but the Catholic Church does not teach that it was necessary for Jesus to be born of someone who never sinned. It does, however, teach that it was fitting.
If it was necessary so that the baby would not be “infected” by its mother’s sin (as you seem to imply), then the same would be necessary for Mary’s mother in order for her to be the Immaculate Conception. And then her grandmother would have had to be sinless, and her great-grandmother, etc.
Since God can do anything, He is quite capable of protecting an unborn from its mother’s sin, whether that baby is Jesus or Mary.
However, it is entirely fitting that Jesus dwell in a pure place, and that is what we claim Mary was.
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Cristian_B
Guest
God is able to sin. God is able to lie. God is able to deceit. He can do whatever He pleases. God can sin, lie, deceit, etc., therefore breaking His own law. He can do whatever He wants. He can destroy us. He can kill you. He can kill me. He can kill the one who reads this post. He can transform you into a frog. He can transform me into a frog. He can do all those things, but that doesn’t mean that He will do it. He chose to keep His word. He chose to keep His word. He chose not to kill us. He chose not to sin. He chose not to lie. He chose not to deceit.
One thing is not being able to, and not doing it. He chose to keep His word, and He gave us His word that He will not sin, lie, deceit, kill us, etc. He chose to obey His own law.
Is this so hard to understand? He can do everything: good and bad; but He chose to only do good. That doesn’t mean He cannot do bad things, but He gave us His word that He won’t.
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