O
- Status
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I am going to respond to this part of your post again. I have looked at the website (again) and found out that their works are copyrighted. That means that, without giving a credit via reference, you have indeed plagiarized.
If you “love to research” you need to be very careful. Plagiarism is a serious offense.
For anyone who is not aware of the definition of plagiarism, here it is:
- stealing somebody’s work or idea: the process of copying another person’s idea or written work and claiming it as original
- something plagiarized: a piece of written work or an idea that somebody has copied and claimed as his or her own
Encarta® World English Dictionary[North American Edition]
As noted above, this definition is taken from Encarta World English Dictionary and can be accessed via the following link:
bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+plagiarism&FORM=DTPDIA
I am not pointing out this violation to be disrespectful and/or rude to you, Fair Lady. However, I cringe whenever I see that someone has stolen someone else’s work. I have written a document myself - it took me over three years of hard work. If someone stole my work I would be extremely upset.
You are not playing fair, Fair Lady.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
:tiphat:
M
MariaG
Guest
I am so sorry that you never go to anyone else to be lifted up in prayer.
Me, I will take all the prayers I can get from righteous men and women of God!
F
Fair_Lady
Guest
For those of you who have copyright concerns in the use of quotations from that website, I believe I’m covered under section 1 of their copyright statement:
- All rights reserved. No part of this website may be reproduced, stored in a data base, cache, retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means - electronic, mechanical, photocopy, recording, or any other - except for brief quotation in printed reivews, without the prior permission of the webmaster.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Need? No, but is intercession for others encouraged in scripture? You bet.
Intercessory Prayer Proved from Scripture
Romans 1:9-11
9God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
2 Corinthians 1:10-12
10He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on oura] behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.
2 Corinthians 9:13-15
13Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you.
2 Corinthians 13:9
We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection.
Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Philippians 1:4
In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy
Philippians 1:19
Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured.
1 Thessalonians 1:2
*Thanksgiving for the Thessalonians’ Faith *] We always thank God for all of you, mentioning you in our prayers.
2 Thessalonians 3:1
*Request for Prayer *] Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you.
1 Timothy 2:1
*Instructions on Worship *] I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—
2 Timothy 1:3
*Encouragement to Be Faithful *] I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.
Philemon 1:4
*Thanksgiving and Prayer *] I always thank my God as I remember you in my prayers,
Philemon 1:22
And one thing more: Prepare a guest room for me, because I hope to be restored to you in answer to your prayers.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
First of all, you did not give brief quotations. You copied several prayers and did not give credit via a reference. Also, your use is not in a printed review. You are presenting it in a forum and using it to debate.
I know how to do research, Fair Lady. I have an M.A. in psychology research methodology and advanced statistics.
I also know what plagiarism is. Do you? I’ve provided a definition. You haven’t responded to my posts re providing references. I get the feeling that you believe it’s OK to steal what others have written. I believe stealing is covered under the Ten Commandments.
You are supposed to provide a reference. You are supposed to give credit to the people who put their time into building a website and allowing others to read the prayers they have provided.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
While I understand your point, it has nothing to do with the apologetics question at hand.
If you have a problem with this issue, I would suggest that you address it with the poster or a mod by PM to avoid derailing the thread.
Thanks.
L
LittleSoldier
Guest
Point taken. I wasn’t going to take it any further anyway, as I don’t want to derail the thread. But I felt that I needed to point out that plagiarism is wrong and I don’t want to see it happen again. By anyone.
Thank you.
L
LittleSoldier
Guest
1 Timothy 2:5 is a Scripture passage that can be interpreted in more than one way. Although it appears to be cut and dried it actually is not that simple. The following explains one way in which this passage can be interpreted:
In 1 Timothy it says that Jesus is our sole mediator, yet we pray to Mary and the Saints. Is that going against the Bible?
1 Tim 2:5 reads as follows: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…” “You see,” we Catholics are told, “there is only one mediator between God and men, Jesus Christ. Therefore, praying to the saints goes against the Bible because you are making them mediators between God and man, you are diminishing Jesus’ role as the sole mediator!”
Is that an appropriate interpretation of that passage? No, it’s not and let’s see why not.
In the O.T. we see that Moses, Abraham, and Job interceded on behalf of others… that’s mediating between God and man. We know that it is okay to ask others here on earth to pray and intercede for us… that’s mediating between God and man. So, I think, once again, we have a situation where a passage of the Bible is being misinterpreted and misunderstood.
There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, but as members of the Body of Christ, He allows us to share in His mediation.
Also, Scripture tells us that we have only one foundation, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11); but, Scripture tells us that there is more than one foundation (Eph 2:19-20). Scripture tells us that we have only Lord, Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4-5); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one lord (Rev 19:16). Scripture tells us that we have only one Judge, Jesus Christ (James 4:12); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one judge (1 Cor 6:2).
Contradictions in Scripture? No! Not when these passages are all properly understood in context. Jesus is the only foundation; Jesus is the only Lord; and Jesus is the only Judge. But, we are members of Jesus’ Body. Therefore, we are able, according to the graces given by Christ, to share in Jesus’ role as foundation, as lord, and as judge, and in other aspects of Christ, as well. Another example, as a father I share in God’s role as Father, by His grace. And, so also, we, and the saints in Heaven, and the angels in Heaven, can share in Christ’s role as Mediator.
biblechristiansociety.com/apologetics/two_minute#15
The topic of this thread (IMHO) is that praying to Mary is wrong and to support this idea the above Scripture passages are presented. I don’t see anything in the passages provided that even addresses the issue of Jesus being the “only” mediator between God and man, except for the implication which can be seen in 1 timothy 2:5 and there the word “only” is not used.
I’m providing this interpretation of 1 timothy 2:5 to show that there are many ways to interpret Scripture passages.
Fair Lady, do you agree that two people, both believing they are guided by the Holy Spirit, can interpret 1 timothy 2:5 in different ways? Which interpretation is correct?
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Fair_Lady
Guest
I’d love to address each issue addressed to me, but I feel the need to take this back to the topic at hand. First I want to say that what I’m posting here is not to do with being “anti-Catholic”. I just have a huge concern for any practise, through any religion, that takes something away from God and His role. As you can see, there is much more going on in these prayers than requests for intercession. So here goes:
From: A CHILD’S PRAYER TO THE
IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY
”O Most Holy Virgin Mother,
we listen with grief to the complaints
of your Immaculate Heart “
Comment: What are the complaints you are hearing from Mary? What is there to indicate that she is complaining?
”We therefore kneel before you
to manifest the sorrow we feel
for the grievances that people cause you,
and to atone by our prayers and sacrifices
for the offenses with which they return return your love.”
*Comment: An atonement by prayers and sacrifices to Mary? What kind of sacrifices? *
“Obtain for them and for us the pardon of so many sins.”
Comment: This broke my heart when I read it. Mary does not have a role in the pardon of our sins and going to her for it is going to the wrong Person. Pardon is obtained from God and it comes from Him, on His terms (which includes repentance) alone:
Isaiah 55:6-8 (New International Version)
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
From: A NIGHT PRAYER TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER
”Before thy image I am kneeling once more”
*Comment: This indicates nothing short of idolatry. The use of images in order to access the spirit world is wrong. Those of us who believe in God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit don’t need to be able to “see” Whom we pray to. “1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.” Hebrews 11:1&2. *
”To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.”
Comment: Another indicator that Mary is looked as much more than an intercessor. She is also trusted and thanked for protection. God alone is absolutely trustworthy.
”It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” Psalm 118:8
“Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.” Psalm 115:11
From: A PARISH PRIEST’S PRAYER TO MARY MOST HOLY
”Grant me strength in the dark hours of this life,
support me in the exertions of my ministry,”
Comment: “Grant me strength?” Again, this is something that, from the heavenlies, only God can provide.
“The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.” Psalm 28:7
Why would anyone go to anyone other than God for strength? Is God not trustworthy enough, not big enough? Does He need help with this? I think not!
”….entrust me to Jesus,”
Comment: Again, this is a matter between Jesus and each on us as individuals. We come to Him in belief and trust in Him alone for our salvation. No earthly person, even if s/he has gone on to be with the Lord, has a role to play in our salvation.
”I consecrate and entrust myself to you, Mary,”
*Comment: I have chosen God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And I earnestly plead that everyone here will put yourselves fully and completely into the loving graces of God our Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He alone reigns supreme! He alone is our help and our strength! He alone is the author and finisher of our faith! He alone is sovereign over all of His created beings! He alone is our salvation! There is nothing we can do without Him! *
From: A CHILD’S PRAYER TO THE
IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY
”O Most Holy Virgin Mother,
we listen with grief to the complaints
of your Immaculate Heart “
Comment: What are the complaints you are hearing from Mary? What is there to indicate that she is complaining?
”We therefore kneel before you
to manifest the sorrow we feel
for the grievances that people cause you,
and to atone by our prayers and sacrifices
for the offenses with which they return return your love.”
*Comment: An atonement by prayers and sacrifices to Mary? What kind of sacrifices? *
“Obtain for them and for us the pardon of so many sins.”
Comment: This broke my heart when I read it. Mary does not have a role in the pardon of our sins and going to her for it is going to the wrong Person. Pardon is obtained from God and it comes from Him, on His terms (which includes repentance) alone:
Isaiah 55:6-8 (New International Version)
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
From: A NIGHT PRAYER TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER
”Before thy image I am kneeling once more”
*Comment: This indicates nothing short of idolatry. The use of images in order to access the spirit world is wrong. Those of us who believe in God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit don’t need to be able to “see” Whom we pray to. “1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.” Hebrews 11:1&2. *
”To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.”
Comment: Another indicator that Mary is looked as much more than an intercessor. She is also trusted and thanked for protection. God alone is absolutely trustworthy.
”It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” Psalm 118:8
“Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.” Psalm 115:11
From: A PARISH PRIEST’S PRAYER TO MARY MOST HOLY
”Grant me strength in the dark hours of this life,
support me in the exertions of my ministry,”
Comment: “Grant me strength?” Again, this is something that, from the heavenlies, only God can provide.
“The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.” Psalm 28:7
Why would anyone go to anyone other than God for strength? Is God not trustworthy enough, not big enough? Does He need help with this? I think not!
”….entrust me to Jesus,”
Comment: Again, this is a matter between Jesus and each on us as individuals. We come to Him in belief and trust in Him alone for our salvation. No earthly person, even if s/he has gone on to be with the Lord, has a role to play in our salvation.
”I consecrate and entrust myself to you, Mary,”
*Comment: I have chosen God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And I earnestly plead that everyone here will put yourselves fully and completely into the loving graces of God our Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He alone reigns supreme! He alone is our help and our strength! He alone is the author and finisher of our faith! He alone is sovereign over all of His created beings! He alone is our salvation! There is nothing we can do without Him! *
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Dear Fair Lady,
As I pointed out to you earlier, these prayers are from a website whose webmaster admits that the prayers do not represent the teaching of the Catholic Church. These are personal prayers, examples of what people might use when they pray to Mary. I don’t think it’s possible to take each prayer and state with any certainty what each part means. I can’t do that because I don’t know.
The Lord’s Prayer is taught by the Catholic Church and I can comment on that. But I can’t comment on someone’s private prayers to Mary.
If someone in your church makes up a prayer, does that mean that your church condones the use of that prayer for all the faithful? If not, why are you upset with Catholicism?
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Fair_Lady
Guest
So far, 22 people have shown their support for the posted prayers. I think that says that there is a fairly common acceptance on what is said in those prayers. If you have concerns with the content of the prayers, I’d be happy to read them.
We don’t typically write and publish prayers. Usually prayer in the church is a conversation with God on specific things in the name of Jesus, according to His will. I’m not for any prayers that ask for anything outside of God’s will.
J
JustaServant
Guest
There ya go folks.
The purpose of the poll was to entrap Catholics in answers using HER choice of words.
Again, this thread is insulting. And FL has proven why with her own words.
F
Fair_Lady
Guest
Why do you feel entrapped? Feel free to defend those prayers!
J
JustaServant
Guest
See what I mean?
I didn’t take part in your ‘poll’. And the status of those prayers has been explained to you in this thread.
I
Indyann
Guest
Can you show us where Catholic prayer asks for anything outside of God’s will?
L
LittleSoldier
Guest
“So far, 22 people have shown their support for the posted prayers.” I believe by this you mean that 22 people clicked on Option 2. I think that says (and only says) that 22 people clicked on Option 2. You don’t know why they clicked on Option 2. You don’t report any other results. Yet you come to your stated conclusion* based solely * on the fact that 22 people clicked on Option 2. Or so you state.
Fair Lady, with all due respect, I don’t think you understand my point. That 22 people took part in your poll by, uh, well, I’m assuming by clicking on Option 2, does little to explain or even describe the role of Mary in Catholicism and the validity of prayers spoken to her.
As I’ve stated before, I don’t think your poll is valid as a tool because it lacks categories that it should have (IMHO). Nowhere in your poll do you ask if the person responding to the question is even Catholic. It is possible that 22 Protestants clicked on Option 2. Or perhaps 5 Protestants clicked on Option 2. In fact, it is also possible for the same person to vote more than one time. So how can you use your results as a tool for showing that Catholics “go over the top” (your term) when praying to Mary?
Other posters and I have stated before that there is a difference between what some Catholics do and official Catholic Church teaching. Is your complaint about Catholics or is it about official Catholic Church teaching?
I didn’t vote on your poll. I didn’t feel that I could honestly click on any of the options you have allowed unless I could click on two. And that brings up another problem with your poll: some voters may have felt that Option 2 was the “best answer of those options provided”, or the “closest answer to what I believe but not really correct, but I guess it’s pretty close so I’ll click on that one.”
You haven’t stated what all the results are and I don’t think the poll is closed yet. Yet you are stating that because 22 people clicked on Option 2, the prayers you have presented are accepted by Catholics. Am I confused by what you are saying? I want to be sure that I understand.
If a member of your church commits a murder, does that mean that your church officially condones murder? If a member of your church clicks on Option 2 in your poll, does that mean that your church officially condones the use of the prayers you provided?
There is another aspect of this poll that I don’t really want to bring up but I feel it is important so I will. How do you know that forum members didn’t ask other forum members to click on a particular option? For example, what if forum member “BAG_O_CATS” (I just made up that name - I don’t know if there is a forum member with that name and apologize in advance if someone does have that name) PM’d twenty other members with the message: “Hey guys!! Someone has posted a poll! Go in there and click on Option 2, OK? That will be cool because then the results will show that Catholics condone inappropriate prayers to Mary!!”
If this has happened, for whatever reason, your results are invalidated.
I don’t need to defend those prayers. * The person(s) who need(s) to defend any of those prayers is (are) the person(s) who wrote them, or the person(s) who use(s) them,* as I should be able to defend any prayer that I write and/or use or is officially part of Church teaching.
My own opinion is that you should focus on official Catholic Church teaching. Asking Catholics to defend prayers that weren’t written by them really isn’t fair. How can I possibly know what complaints Mary has (from the first prayer you provided)? It isn’t my prayer!! I have never used that prayer and I never even saw it before you posted it. So I’m not privy to that information.
The only prayers I can defend are those that are officially taught by the Catholic Church, those which I (personally) have written, and those that are not officially taught by the Catholic Church (or any other church) but that I (personally) use when I pray (even though I didn’t write them).
Do you ever write and/or publish prayers? Is prayer in your church always “a conversation with God on specific things in the name of Jesus, according to His will?” Do members of your church have the right to pray privately during the service? Do members of your church have the right to pray privately, using their own words, at any time at all?
You have made a general statement that you are “not for any prayers that ask for anything outside of God’s will.” Is this an official teaching of your church ? Are there other official teachings in your church that deal with prayer? If so, would you please post those teachings or reference them via a link or other reference? I’m asking because I’m very interested.
I have one more question: Are prayers ever said during a service in your church that do not meet your criteria of what prayer should be?
O
OchsFam
Guest
There is plenty happening in this world that would lead our mother to complain. That being said, this is a more artistic than literal.
Where does this say the prayers and sacrifices for atonement are TO Mary? This is a petition for Mary to work in addition to our prayers and sacrificies which are to the Lord Jesus for our atonement. In a way, it is saying, help our prayers and sacrifices be acceptable to God. This is where knowing Catholic teaching would be beneficial. There are no sacrifices to Mary. There is only one sacrifice and that is Jesus’ on the cross of which we participate at each Mass.
It sounds to me like you are saying that someone cannot ask the Lord for someone elses forgiveness. Is this what you are saying? Remember this line, “forgive them for they know not what they do.” This is a petition for Mary to use her special relationship with Jesus, which we explained before, to request our pardon. The wording is definitive because we believe any petition Mary brings to Jesus will not be denied. It is not that Mary is pardoning the sin, but we have confidence that Mary will obtain the pardon which we should have also asked Jesus for.
Nowhere does it tell you HOW Mary would obtain a pardon of our sins. You are reading into this artistic expression that which you want to believe. You must understand the Catholic teachings to understand these prayers. When someone not educated in what we believe of Mary and her unique role in salvation history reads these, it may appear scandelous. These prayers are meant for someone who has this understanding and if you are not confortable praying them because they confuse you, then you should not use them. This is why option 2 is a valid answer. There is nothing wrong with the prayer in reality, just in an uneducated, superficial, glance at them will cause confusion.
Actually, it speaks more to your misunderstanding of idolatry. We do not believe the statue or image IS Mary nor do we believe it to be “acting” in any way. It is an icon which helps us focus on who we are praying to. The human mind has a tendency to wander so many people use these icons to help them focus. There is no NEED for the icon except to assist us in our prayer. You should read on what idolatry is, not what you believe it to be.
Now you are getting rediculous. So if a police officer protects you, you cannot thank them? You cannot find another person trustworth? Mary can protect us as much as our angels or any other person on Earth can protect us. This speaks to your misunderstanding of what the souls in Heaven are capable of. They are more alive than you or I and care more about our well being than anyone on Earth does, including your spouse. Mary works to protect you and so you should thank her. Not thanking her is the problem. Also, every person in Heaven cannot lie and so no, there are many more people who are absolutely trustworthy outside of Jesus. It is because of Jesus this is so, but when you are perfectly aligned with God in Heaven, you are absolutely trustworthy.
I would be interested in seeing a Biblical quote that says ONLY God can provide you with strength. You quote several passages that do not support you ONLY claims, I would like to see better passages if you wish to provide rebuttal and make sure “alone” or “only” is in the verse.
Ultimately, everything is from God so it is true that any strength you receive whether through the Holy Spirit or through one of God’s graces, which can be another person, is from God. If you are married, think of how many times your spouse (if not, a friend) has helped you through a tough time. This is God working through another person to provide you strength.
We have, as the author of this prayer has.
God Bless.
I
Ignatius
Guest
I’d love not to have to point out your errors repeatedly. Just the same :
You are picking up some erroneous information. If you want the Truth about what the Catholic Church teaches, go here: amazon.com/Catechism-Cath…/dp/0385479670
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