Prayers to Mary

[SugarMagnolia]

“Let us not imagine, then, as some misguided teachers do, that Mary being simply a creature would be a hindrance to union with the Creator. Far from it, for it is no longer Mary who lives but Jesus Christ himself, God alone, who lives in her. Her transformation into God far surpasses that experienced by St Paul and other saints, more than heaven surpasses the earth. Mary was created only for God, and it is unthinkable that she should reserve even one soul for herself. On the contrary she leads every soul to God and to union with him. Mary is the wonderful echo of God. The more a person joins himself to her, the more effectively she unites him to God. When we say “Mary”, she re-echoes “God”. When, like St Elizabeth, we call her blessed, she gives the honour to God. If those misguided ones who were so sadly led astray by the devil, even in their prayer-life, had known how to discover Mary, and Jesus through her, and God through Jesus, they would not have had such terrible falls. The saints tell us that when we have once found Mary, and through Mary Jesus, and through Jesus God the Father, then we have discovered every good. When we say “every good”, we except nothing. “Every good” includes every grace, continuous friendship with God, every protection against the enemies of God, possession of truth to counter every falsehood, endless benefits and unfailing headway against the hazards we meet on the way to salvation, and finally every consolation and joy amid the bitter afflictions of life.”

Quoted from: St. Louis de Montfort, *The Secret of Mary *(21)

Italics mine

 

[Kay_Cee]

If someone in your church makes up a prayer, does that mean that your church condones the use of that prayer for all the faithful?

Fair Lady,

Your response in post 52 does not answer this question of LittleSoldier’s.

In case you misunderstood, it is a yes/no question. Please answer either yes or no.

 

[adstrinity]

There is plenty happening in this world that would lead our mother to complain. That being said, this is a more artistic than literal.

Thank you for addressing every point. I was planning on doing that, but, thank you for doing that. If I may add to this, I was going to say the same thing. Whenever Her Son’s Will is not done, this makes Mary complain. We grieve because we know that this is making God sad and Mary is, I don’t know if we can say She is sad since there are no tears in Heaven, but, She is intimately connected with Her Son and empathizes when He went through so much and His creatures don’t even care and some don’t even know. Mary’s complaints are that we do not do the will of Her Son, Her Father, Her Husband, Her Husband, Her God.

 

[Fair_Lady]

As I’ve stated before, I don’t think your poll is valid as a tool because it lacks categories that it should have (IMHO). Nowhere in your poll do you ask if the person responding to the question is even Catholic. It is possible that 22 Protestants clicked on Option 2. Or perhaps 5 Protestants clicked on Option 2. In fact, it is also possible for the same person to vote more than one time. So how can you use your results as a tool for showing that Catholics “go over the top” (your term) when praying to Mary?

You might notice that I don’t specifically address this thread towards Catholics. It has to do with the practise of praying to Mary, not naming a certain religion. That way, people of all religions who practise prayer to Mary can take part in it. It would be very surprising if 22 Protestants clicked on option 2 because Protestants typically don’t pray to Mary, I’ve clicked on the profiles of at least 6 of the voters in favour of option 2. All were Catholic.

Other posters and I have stated before that there is a difference between what some Catholics do and official Catholic Church teaching. Is your complaint about Catholics or is it about official Catholic Church teaching?

For this thread, it’s only about the practise of prayer to Mary and it’s not a complaint.

I didn’t vote on your poll. I didn’t feel that I could honestly click on any of the options you have allowed unless I could click on two. And that brings up another problem with your poll: some voters may have felt that Option 2 was the “best answer of those options provided”, or the “closest answer to what I believe but not really correct, but I guess it’s pretty close so I’ll click on that one.”

That’s fine. It’s pretty hard to find a category suited for every single person. But I’m quite satisfied that the majority who participated in the poll have indicated that the prayers posted are in line with their beliefs and/or practices.

You haven’t stated what all the results are and I don’t think the poll is closed yet. Yet you are stating that because 22 people clicked on Option 2, the prayers you have presented are accepted by Catholics. Am I confused by what you are saying? I want to be sure that I understand.

I am aware that practises and beliefs vary among Catholics just as in any other religion, so am not surprised that there will be differing practises. Again, this isn’t all about Catholicism. One day, I’ll take the time to see what, if any, other people with different religious backgrounds took part and what their views are. I have heard that even among the popes there were differing degrees of devotion to Mary.

If a member of your church commits a murder, does that mean that your church officially condones murder? If a member of your church clicks on Option 2 in your poll, does that mean that your church officially condones the use of the prayers you provided?

No, to both questions.

There is another aspect of this poll that I don’t really want to bring up but I feel it is important so I will. How do you know that forum members didn’t ask other forum members to click on a particular option? For example, what if forum member “BAG_O_CATS” (I just made up that name - I don’t know if there is a forum member with that name and apologize in advance if someone does have that name) PM’d twenty other members with the message: “Hey guys!! Someone has posted a poll! Go in there and click on Option 2, OK? That will be cool because then the results will show that Catholics condone inappropriate prayers to Mary!!”

I suppose there’s always a slight chance that could happen. However, having read the vehement defense of those prayers leads me to believe that there are at least some people here who stick by them.

I don’t need to defend those prayers. * The person(s) who need(s) to defend any of those prayers is (are) the person(s) who wrote them, or the person(s) who use(s) them,* as I should be able to defend any prayer that I write and/or use or is officially part of Church teaching.

From what you’re saying, I’m getting the sense that you’re not in favour of those prayers. Correct me if I’m wrong.

My own opinion is that you should focus on official Catholic Church teaching

. Asking Catholics to defend prayers that weren’t written by them really isn’t fair. How can I possibly know what complaints Mary has (from the first prayer you provided)? It isn’t my prayer!! I have never used that prayer and I never even saw it before you posted it. So I’m not privy to that information.
It’s interesting to know that you don’t

The only prayers I can defend are those that are officially taught by the Catholic Church, those which I (personally) have written, and those that are not officially taught by the Catholic Church (or any other church) but that I (personally) use when I pray (even though I didn’t write them).

That confirms to me that there is definitely varying degrees within the practise of praying to Mary.

Do you ever write and/or publish prayers?

No.

Is prayer in your church always “a conversation with God on specific things in the name of Jesus, according to His will?”

Usually. We will sometimes pray the Lord’s prayer or something else out of scripture outside of our ad lib prayers.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Continuation of my reply to LittleSoldier:

Do members of your church have the right to pray privately during the service?

Yes.

Do members of your church have the right to pray privately, using their own words, at any time at all?

That is very much encouraged. That is our most typical form of prayer when we’re out and about in the world. However we do gather for corporate prayer as well at public gatherings…

You have made a general statement that you are “not for any prayers that ask for anything outside of God’s will.” Is this an official teaching of your church ?

Yes, this is in accordance with 1 John 15:14-15 “This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.”

Are there other official teachings in your church that deal with prayer? If so, would you please post those teachings or reference them via a link or other reference? I’m asking because I’m very interested.

Our official teachings on such matters centre directly on what God’s word says. So any verse in the Bible that deals with prayer is our official teaching on the subject.

I have one more question: Are prayers ever said during a service in your church that do not meet your criteria of what prayer should be?

I don’t recall any prayers specifically in any of the churches that I have regularly attended to be outside of what I would consider anti-scriptural. But I have heard prayers in some protestant gatherings that I could not particiapte with in agreement.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Fair Lady,

Your response in post 52 does not answer this question of LittleSoldier’s.

In case you misunderstood, it is a yes/no question. Please answer either yes or no.

The answer can’t be one or the other because there are conditions to be considered, so:
Yes, if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will.
No, if the prayer is not in accordance with the will of God.

 

[JustaServant]

The answer can’t be one or the other because there are conditions to be considered, so:
Yes, if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will.
No, if the prayer is not in accordance with the will of God.

And who decides if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

 

[Zooey]

And who decides if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

:clapping:
Now there is an:thumbsup: excellent question; I wondered about that myslef!!!

 

[LittleSoldier]

And who decides if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

That is a very good question. Fair Lady, who decides if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

 

[Kay_Cee]

The answer can’t be one or the other because there are conditions to be considered, so:
Yes, if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will.
No, if the prayer is not in accordance with the will of God.

I have to echo the other posters here.

Who decides if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Dear Fair Lady,

I am preparing a response to your reply to me. It’s getting a bit long (as subjects such as these tend to do) and is taking some time. I have also been ill and haven’t been able to concentrate very well.

I don’t want to you to think that I’m ignoring you. I’m not. I take your questions and comments very seriously and don’t want to post a poorly thought-out response.

It may take me a few more days, so I thought I should let you (and anyone else who is interested) know.

Sorry, and thanks for your understanding.

 

[Monte1945]

The answer can’t be one or the other because there are conditions to be considered, so:
Yes, if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will.
No, if the prayer is not in accordance with the will of God.

This subject is one which volumes of books can be written about…
and yet only scratch the surface… But a few comments might
be useful…

First of all… Prayer is only acceptable to God if it is in the will
of God for one’s good… which is between the Holy Spirit and God

Such as it saids in Romans 8

26 And as well as this, the Spirit too comes to help us in our weakness, for, when we do not know how to pray properly, then the Spirit personally makes our petitions for us in groans that cannot be put into words;
27 and he who can see into all hearts knows what the Spirit means because the prayers that the Spirit makes for God’s holy people are always in accordance with the mind of God.

Unquote…

I thought your main question was regarding prayers to Mary… and how does that work
from within Scriptures… and there are some basic reasons for one to believe in that
being a proper thing to do. But realize that what you ask in it’s totality would take
a set of books to touch on all areas of how the Catholic Church sees Mary.

And from how you see her from scripture alone.

Let me point out one basic fact… and lets see if we can deal with this without
too much “sentiment” and “fear that one is going against the Faith” So as that
one is being asked to believe in something which might affect one’s salvation…
etc…

The basic statures of what is called by some as Marian doctrines… has nothing
what so ever to do with the “salvation” of one’s soul…

So what ever you might feel about Mary or what ever we (catholic) might feel
it has nothing to do with you and your salvation from God.

The first question you have to answer is whether there is the “communion of Saints”

Unless you get that in your mind then everything else is just as you feel it is now.
It is probably something you or your church hasn’t sat down and worked out within the scriptures… in order to see if it is of something to consider… as another means to obtain God’s Grace through your Prayers…

As a Catholic we “may” pray to any past christian that we know of who has
lived and died… (Rev. 5 and Rev 8) Mary is one of those past christians.

And as a Catholic we can pray and ask her to relay our prayer request
to God through her Son Jesus.

And as a Catholic we can choose to “not” pray for her to pray with us.
This is a personal “choice” and not something which has anything to do with our personal salvation. These are total different subjects and are seperate from one another.

The real question you need to answer is “do you believe in the communion of Saints?”

and let us go with that as a real beginning… and then we can bring in Mary.

Sort of get the horse on the front of this cart…

Personally I think that if there IS validity to the Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church
and you are not using them, that is just your personal loss…

I think the devil who is not able to stop Faith, might be doing the next best thing
and that is to WATER down the Graces of God for her children by causing doubt
and division… So that one’s christian maturity is being held back…

It certainly is important enough for you to open your mind and at least consider that
there just might be some validity to the Marian Doctrines…

 

[Ignatius]

Continuation of my reply to .

Again, you are obviously laboring under some severe misunderstandings about Catholic teaching. So, if you want the Truth about what the Catholic Church teaches, go here: amazon.com/Catechism-Cath…/dp/0385479670. Have you tried this yet? It really will clear things up on this subject.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Again, you are obviously laboring under some severe misunderstandings about Catholic teaching. So, if you want the Truth about what the Catholic Church teaches, go here: amazon.com/Catechism-Cath…/dp/0385479670. Have you tried this yet? It really will clear things up on this subject.

Or, Fair Lady, if you don’t want to purchase the book (although I would recommend doing so for anyone who is really interested in official Catholic Church teaching) you can use an on-line Catechism. Here is a link for one website:

usccb.org/catechism/text/

 

[Fair_Lady]

Dear Fair Lady,

I am preparing a response to your reply to me. It’s getting a bit long (as subjects such as these tend to do) and is taking some time. I have also been ill and haven’t been able to concentrate very well.

I don’t want to you to think that I’m ignoring you. I’m not. I take your questions and comments very seriously and don’t want to post a poorly thought-out response.

It may take me a few more days, so I thought I should let you (and anyone else who is interested) know.

Sorry, and thanks for your understanding.

I’m really sorry you’ve been ill, LittleSoldier. I don’t easily come to the assumption that anyone is ignoring me because I know what it’s like not to be able to respond early nearly all the time. I too am pressed for time and realize there’s only so much one can do at certain times. While I’d love to reply to some of the latter posts today, I think I’m only going to manage one or two responses to some important earlier posts. Hope you’re better soon!

 

[Fair_Lady]

"*
Her transformation into God far surpasses that experienced by St Paul and other saints, more than heaven surpasses the earth.*
Mary has not had a transformation into God. That notion is the product of someones’s untethered imagination.

Mary was created only for God, and it is unthinkable that she should reserve even one soul for herself. On the contrary she leads every soul to God and to union with him.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Fair Lady,

You didn’t answer my question. Some other posters asked it too. Will you please answer it?

Here it is again:

Who decides if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

 

[Monte1945]

Prayer to Mary is just a prayer to one of the Saints… Which has always been
A Catholic choice within the verb of prayer/praying etc.

Mary is far from being the only person who lived and died that Catholics call upon
to help them to petition God with their prayer requests.

She is one of thousands. She is one of the communion of Saints.

Why do I request the past saints and Saints to join help me petition God
through the one mediator Jesus?

Because it works.

One of the features of what the protestant churchs took from the same
faith that Catholic have is the rich history of the “Body of Christ” in His
kingdom here and now. And for some reason they seem to have stopped
the book of Acts with the book of Acts…

God is alive and well today… just has He has been forever and ever.
He is working through the Faith of the believers… The work of God
did NOT stop with the end of the book of Acts in the bible.

There has been wonderful works of God through many people since
the bible left off it’s written canon of books. Just because the church
adding books to the New Testement does not mean God has ceased
to work through people from that time to now.

The catholic church has records and letter written from christians since
the time of Jesus to now. They just haven’t put them into the bible.
There have been wonderful miracles performed from men and women
which indicates that God has worked through them.

There have been thousands of people healed from incurable diseases
by going to these places where a woman has appeared.

Are you going to say… these healings are not of God?

You might do a search for Saint Solantus Casey on the web…
He was a friar who lived mostly in Michigan… he died in the late 1950’s.
He has been credited with many healing miracles and it is still happening
at his grave site when people call upon him in prayer to take their illness
to the Lord for them for healing…

His witness is powerful… I was a teen ager when he died and the whole community
was shocked that this little almost mentally retarted Friar had over 25,000 people
come to his funeral. The members of his community didn’t even know how powerful
his healing prayer was…
When he joined the Order… he had such a simple mind, that they didn’t know what kind of work they could give him in the monastery… They took him in kind of like some simple minded man who was off the streets… and they decided he could answer the door of the monastery to the people who came for prayer requests. They gave him a desk and chair,
which were located in a hall way… and the visitors would follow him to his desk. He would have them sit on chairs lining that hall way. and he would call on the phone to one of the priests there, to tell them someone needed to talk to them… But as these people waited to see the priest for their prayer request they would talk to this simple minded man
Fr. Casey. They would tell him of their troubles… and he would say to them he would pray for them… sometimes the people would get tired of waiting and leave before talking to the priest and their prayer request were being answered… healings… jobs, family getting back to gether. They figured it was from that little friars prayers…so they would tell their friends of him and they began to come and just ask him to pray for their needs…

To make a long story short… he became known to the people of the power of his prayer.
When he died, they buried him in the back of the monastery with the other graves which was out of bounds for the general public. the people started climbing the back walls to get to his grave so they could ask for his prayers and those prayers were getting answered.
The church decided they needed to move his body to inside the church so the people could get too him. When they opened his coffin… thirty years after his death. his body
had not deomposed one degree… and the inside of the casket was filled with the sweetest smell they had ever smelled…(this has happned with some of the most famous Saints of the church)

The christian experience of through out the history of the world… is rich with so many wonderful christian witnesses… and yet the protesant churchs seem to just ignor it for some reason and they lose out in the richness of the other Acts of God in our world…

I have never understood how the other churches can limit God to just within the bible.
I pray to the saints because it is effective and has been since the beginning of Christian
history of the world… and will be so until the end of time…

At least that is my faith…

 

[Fair_Lady]

I have to echo the other posters here.

Who decides if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

That is an important question and I just haven’t got around to it.

Ultimately, God knows if our prayers are in accordance with His will. He also knows our hearts inside and out.

As believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, we need to get to know God in an intimate way through His word. The more we get to know God, the more we will know His will as it is written in scripture. If we pray for things that are contrary to His word, we know it is out of His will. If we pray for things that are scripturally sound, we are on the right track.

Sometimes I have desires that I’m not sure would be in the will of God. Then I will ask simply that God’s will be done in that situation. There is nothing more right in the outcome of my request than for it to be in the will of God, even if it isn’t something that I would not have chosen. But I recognize that God’s ways are not our ways and He knows the begining from the end, so I need to trust Him for where He takes me and what He gives to me.

I’ going to post a web page that I think provides good additional information on this subject: allaboutprayer.org/in-the-name-of-jesus-faq.htm

 

[crazzeto]

That is an important question and I just haven’t got around to it.

Ultimately, God knows if our prayers are in accordance with His will. He also knows our hearts inside and out.

As believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, we need to get to know God in an intimate way through His word. The more we get to know God, the more we will know His will as it is written in scripture. If we pray for things that are contrary to His word, we know it is out of His will. If we pray for things that are scripturally sound, we are on the right track.

Sometimes I have desires that I’m not sure would be in the will of God. Then I will ask simply that God’s will be done in that situation. There is nothing more right in the outcome of my request than for it to be in the will of God, even if it isn’t something that I would not have chosen. But I recognize that God’s ways are not our ways and He knows the begining from the end, so I need to trust Him for where He takes me and what He gives to me.

I’ going to post a web page that I think provides good additional information on this subject: allaboutprayer.org/in-the-name-of-jesus-faq.htm

Of course Mary, being in Heaven is perfectly formed to the will of God. So with that said, if answering your prayer wouldnt’ be God’s will, Mary wouldn’t pray for you as she is perfectly formed to his will (as the angels are also).