Prayers to Mary

[Kay_Cee]

What method? My information is that Joseph Smith claims that the Book of Mormon is a devine revelation from God. We know that to be false because it does not concur with scripture and I see the Book of Mormon as something that was added to scripture, which violates Revelation 22:18.

What method? This one, from your post (#78):

“If we pray for things that are contrary to His word, we know it is out of His will.”

That is how they “determine” that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. They pray to God to know if it’s true, and he supposedly answers them that it is.

Is what I’m hearing in line with God’s word? If not, it is suspect or just plain dead wrong.

This does not answer the question. I asked how you know if what you’re hearing is in accord with God’s will. Your response is that if it’s not God’s will, it’s wrong. That doesn’t explain how you know.

Sometimes there are wrong teachings in the Protestant churches. All religions have that problem. How do we determine who is right? Go to the word of God.

Fair Lady, if I believed you, I would have to become an atheist, for the God you speak of is incapable of founding a church that doesn’t have wrong teachings. How incompetent he must be. Fortunately, I do not believe you.

Is there conflict with the word of God? If there is, we know with certainty that it is not God’s will.

Excuse me, but this makes no sense. If there is? How could there possibly be any conflict in the word of God?

God’s word never changes. As humans, we don’t always do what is right. But that doesn’t negate God and His word.

This much I agree with.

God decides. Get to know God and His word intimately and He will guide you and lead you in truth. Jesus said in John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”.
Also Psalm 119:104,105:
“Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.”

This is not what I’m asking. I’m asking how **you **know, not how **God **knows.

 

[JustaServant]

The reason she isn’t answering is because she has no answer.
Evangelicals are locked into the mindset that spontaneous prayer is the only way to pray, they are dead set against pre-composed set prayers.
But the purpose of repitition is to discipline our prayer life. Like physical exercise it forces us to consentrate on the words, clear our brains of frivolous thoughts. It actually helps our spontanous prayer.
These pre-composed prayers are part of Sacred Tradition and are approved by the Church. So we know they are within God’s will because the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
That’s why she didn’t understand concerning the prayers she cited. Because they are NOT approved prayers. She has nothing comparable in her experience.
So, how do you know a spontaneous prayer is within the will of God?
You don’t.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Much more than numbers, I am far more interested in knowing how people justifiy praying those prayers to Mary and as we have seen, they have been vehemently defended here. Something else I find very interesting is that like Protestants, not all people who identify themselves as Catholics hold to the same beliefs.

Then why the poll? What purpose does your poll serve? It doesn’t tap into the beliefs or practices of any significant number of Catholics and certainly doesn’t tap into official Catholic Church teaching.

You use the word “vehement” a lot. I haven’t seen any vehemence with the exception of posters who continue to ask you the same question over and over without receiving a response. I haven’t seen any vehement defending of any prayers. Nowhere. Nowhere at all.

What beliefs are you referring to when you state that “not all people who identify themselves as Catholics hold to the same beliefs?”

That’s easy to determine by clicking on and counting the names per vote. Some might have more than one moniker, but I’m much more interested in what is said about the practise of praying those prayers to Mary than shear numbers.

Then why the poll? Why use a poll that doesn’t even address what “is said about the practice of praying those prayers to Mary?” And all I’ve seen posted about those prayers is a little defending by a few posters. Not vehement defending.

True. If anyone here was under duress to click on option 2 and wants to declare that, feel free to do that.

Changing the rules in the middle of the study is a research no-no. It is a confounding factor that needs to be discussed and analyzed.

That’s possible. However the vehement defense of those prayers is interesting to me and they take time and effort to put out.

Vehement?? Hardly. All I’ve seen is a couple of forum members making an attempt to answer your question. I have not seen any “vehemence” whatsoever when it comes to defending those prayers. Nowhere. Nowhere at all.

For pete’s sake, this is a forum, not something driven by scientific research!

Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you “love to research.” I guess I shouldn’t have assumed that when you stated that you “love to research” you love to research. My bad.

It’s about the practise of praying to Mary and I happened to know that it is a common practise within the Catholic church. However I didn’t want to make it appear to be limited to Catholics. Any other religion was welcome to partake of the poll too.

You didn’t want to *make it appear *to be limited to Catholics? That sentence implies that it actually was meant to be limited to Catholics. Is that what you mean? That is a very significant statement. That statement makes it appear to me that you are interested in Catholics who pray to Mary with those prayers.

And that just made me think of another confounding factor. People who are not Catholic but are forum members may answer in a significantly different way than people who are not Catholic and not forum members. And what about Catholics who are not on this forum?

But this thread isn’t about “the practice of praying to Mary”, is it? I thought that, according to the OP, this was about certain prayers that are “over the top” (your term). It’s about the* wording* of certain prayers (that a person who is not representing the Catholic Church provided).

Or are you now saying this thread is about the practice of praying to Mary?

This is much more interesting, though I have done some reading in the catechism and I listen to Catholic Answer Live on Sirius radio. It is interesting to dialogue with people and find out how we all respond to what is taught in the church and from God’s word.

I find this very interesting, also. The sources you mention are both good, although the Catechism is the best source IMO and if you are really interested in learning about the Catholic Faith - what is actually taught - I also recommend “Catholicism for Dummies” by John Trigilio. I have it on my Kindle.

Sorry, I’ll have to attend to the rest of your post later.

Please don’t apologize. I know this group of posts is very long and it’s causing some time problems for me, too. Also, I want to apologize for not thanking you for your kind wishes when I was ill. I did appreciate them very much.

 

[JustaServant]

Which is exactly why I thought the poll insulting and refused to participate.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Then why the poll? What purpose does your poll serve? It doesn’t tap into the beliefs or practices of any significant number of Catholics and certainly doesn’t tap into official Catholic Church teaching.

Polls offer an easy way to state what the position is of those who choose to take part. Just a click of the mouse, and voila, you’ve made a statement. I’m not looking at it from the standpoint of seeing all Catholics in the light of the results of the poll. It’s more of a snapshot of individual beliefs.

What beliefs are you referring to when you state that “not all people who identify themselves as Catholics hold to the same beliefs?”

For the purpose of this thread only, I’m trying to get an idea of whether or not all the people who participate in this poll/discussion hold to the position that the only purpose of their praying to Mary is for intercession purposes. So far, it appears that this is not the case in the majority of those who took part in the poll because the prayers posted show that much more is being sought after from Mary than intercession.

Then why the poll? Why use a poll that doesn’t even address what “is said about the practice of praying those prayers to Mary?”

Again, it has to do with what I’m being told, namely that prayers to Mary are usually solely for the purpose of requesting intercession.

And all I’ve seen posted about those prayers is a little defending by a few posters. Not vehement defending.

I think we share a different perspective on this. To me it came through with much sincerity and earnestness. Unfortunately I haven’t had the opportunity yet to address each statement with the time and effort they deserve.

Changing the rules in the middle of the study is a research no-no. It is a confounding factor that needs to be discussed and analyzed.

No rules are being changed. You suggested that some of the participants might have been under pressure to vote the way they did. I just thought it would be interesting if anyone came forward to state that they had not voted of their own free will. So far, it doesn’t appear to have been an issue.

Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you “love to research.” I guess I shouldn’t have assumed that when you stated that you “love to research” you love to research. My bad.

I do love to research. For me it’s a pastime in which I enjoy gathering information that’s of interest to me.

You didn’t want to *make it appear *to be limited to Catholics? That sentence implies that it actually was meant to be limited to Catholics. Is that what you mean? That is a very significant statement. That statement makes it appear to me that you are interested in Catholics who pray to Mary with those prayers.

I am interested in the perspective of people from the Catholic faith on this subject because I know that it is a practise that it is a common practise among them But I didn’t want to limit it to Catholics only.

And that just made me think of another confounding factor. People who are not Catholic but are forum members may answer in a significantly different way than people who are not Catholic and not forum members. And what about Catholics who are not on this forum?

For the purpose of this thread, I’m interested only in what the participants of this thread have to say. However, it is clear that even among this limited number of people, there is diversity in beliefs within the Catholic framework.

But this thread isn’t about “the practice of praying to Mary”, is it? I thought that, according to the OP, this was about certain prayers that are “over the top” (your term). It’s about the* wording* of certain prayers (that a person who is not representing the Catholic Church provided).

I copied from prayers that I feel are certainly over the top to see if there was anyone here that supported their use. Again, it was for the purpose of trying to get an understanding of whether or not prayer to Mary is usually for requesting intercession. So far, the majority of people who responded to the poll support those prayers.

I find this very interesting, also. The sources you mention are both good, although the Catechism is the best source IMO and if you are really interested in learning about the Catholic Faith - what is actually taught - I also recommend “Catholicism for Dummies” by John Trigilio. I have it on my Kindle.

In reading between the lines, I’m getting the sense from you that the official teachings of the church would not support the use of the prayers I posted. Is that correct?

Also, I want to apologize for not thanking you for your kind wishes when I was ill. I did appreciate them very much.

No need to apologize…we’re in the same boat. I’m glad you seem to be feeling better!

 

[Fair_Lady]

What method? This one, from your post (#78):

“If we pray for things that are contrary to His word, we know it is out of His will.”

That is how they “determine” that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. They pray to God to know if it’s true, and he supposedly answers them that it is.

If the Mormons were to compare what the Book of Mormon says against the word of God, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they would see that one is in contravention of the other.

This does not answer the question. I asked how you know if what you’re hearing is in accord with God’s will. Your response is that if it’s not God’s will, it’s wrong. That doesn’t explain how you know.

First, let me make it clear that I’m not always sure that everything I hear is from God. But the more I get to know Him through His word, the better off I am in this regard.

Do I always know God’s will for my life and circumstances? No. Often I have to just place my trust in Him to carry me through as His providence unfolds in my life. Often I don’t see God’s will in a situation until I’ve been through the “mill”. After the crisis is over, I see His work in my life much more clearly than when I’m in that situation.

However, when it comes to prayer, the better I know God and His word, the easier it becomes to pray according to His will. I also know that the Holy Spirit intercedes for me in times when I just don’t know how to pray and I thank Him for that! Check out Romans 8:26-27: “And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weaknesses; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” Isn’t that a wonderful thing?!

Fair Lady, if I believed you, I would have to become an atheist, for the God you speak of is incapable of founding a church that doesn’t have wrong teachings. How incompetent he must be. Fortunately, I do not believe you.

I know this isn’t what you’ve been taught, and again it digresses from the main topic, but it is so important. Who is God’s church? True believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. People who have not yet been perfected until after death. Until we are in heaven, we will have church leaders who are not perfect, just as the church leaders will have congregations who are not perfect. That’s why our main focus must remain on God and His word. Everything under God and His word is subject to error. This includes people of all status and all levels of hierarchy. Does that mean we give up and become atheists? Not on your life! We have One True and Living God! To Him we look to for all authority and power.

Excuse me, but this makes no sense. If there is? How could there possibly be any conflict in the word of God?

I wasn’t saying there is any conflict within the word of God. That is, unless one misundertands something from it. I’m saying that anything that comes from man could possibly be in confict with God’s word.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Continuation of Response to Fair Lady:

Of course practices (and to a lesser extent beliefs) vary among Catholics. But I thought you wanted to learn about what the Catholic Church teaches. Don’t you want to know about official Church teaching?

If something in this thread, in particular the prayers I posted, goes against what the Catholic church teaches, feel free to show me what the official teaching is.

Are you really interested in what the Catholic Church teaches? I believe in your last thread you stated that your granddaughter is attending a Catholic high school and because of that you wanted to know more about the Catholic Faith. Was that true?

Yes.

The focus in this thread has changed a bit because now you are stating that it is the wording of the prayers to Mary that is wrong.

Yes I am focussing on this now. The reason is because I wanted to confirm whether or not praying to Mary was solely for the purpose of asking for intercession.

Yet you have been shown the disclaimer provided by the webmaster of the website you took the prayers from. Even he/she states that he/she has not been appointed to represent the Catholic Church, his/her diocese, or his/her parish. These prayers are from the webmaster. They are his/her prayers, not the Catholic Church’s prayers.

However, it appears that the majority of people who state that their religion of choice is Catholic support those prayers. Why is that? Are they going against the teachings of the church?

As far as Popes are concerned, of course there are varying degrees of devotion to Mary. Popes aren’t robots - they don’t have some sort of chip containing devotion to Mary inserted when they become Popes!! Why wouldn’t there be varying degrees of devotion to Mary among Popes?

I’m not at all surprised that there are varying degrees of devotion to Mary among popes. My question would be, does that affect their leadership within the church?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Um, at the risk of starting World War III, may I ask exactly what the ‘objections’ to the prayers are?

Fair Lady, when you started off lisping the Scriptures at mother’s knee, I’m sure that you tried to understand them but (as St. Paul said), you had the mind of a child, you thought as a child, you spoke as a child.

Now, as a adult, and probably as an adult who has studied Scripture extensively, your understanding is radically ‘deeper’ than it was as a child, right?

You wouldn’t expect a young child to be able to understand you if you were delving into some esoteric Scriptural passage’s possible interpretation.

You might not even expect a young adult to be able to understand, particularly if the young adult came from a background where he or she had not been ‘used to’ studying Scripture.

You would expect that, before they discussed a ‘difficult’ point with you, that they had gone through the ‘milk’ of teaching in order to be able to address the ‘meat’, wouldn’t you?

Well, you see, when it comes to Mary, you’re in the ‘milk stage’ and some of these prayers are in the ‘meat’ stage.

A lot of our understanding of Mary is Scriptural (the rest is Oral Tradition based on the apostolic teachings which were handed down ‘orally’, that is, not written AT FIRST). For example, much of the Old Testament writing references to the Ark of the Covenant are understood to apply to Mary (who contained the Christ within her). This is rather ‘meaty’ stuff. If somebody isn’t used to even considering Mary in this regard, hearing her referred to in terms that are such as applied to the Holy ark seem. . .difficult.

IOW. . .you’re approaching these specific prayers from the outlook of a young child to whom they don’t ‘make sense’ because the child has not yet learned enough for them TO make sense.

 

[LittleSoldier]

If something in this thread, in particular the prayers I posted, goes against what the Catholic church teaches, feel free to show me what the official teaching is.

If you want to learn about what the Catholic Church teaches you have the Catechism. Look it up for yourself. I’m not a spokesperson for official Catholic Church teaching and neither is anyone who responded to your poll or attempted to answer your questions about the prayers you took from the website.

Yes.

Then why don’t you do so? Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. That will give you the answers you are trying to find.

Yes I am focussing on this now. The reason is because I wanted to confirm whether or not praying to Mary was solely for the purpose of asking for intercession.

Among Catholics, right?

However, it appears that the majority of people who state that their religion of choice is Catholic support those prayers. Why is that? Are they going against the teachings of the church?

You have already been shown that only .016 percent of self-identified Catholics on CAF responded to Option #2 on your poll. The majority of people who state that their religion of choice is Catholic support those prayers? How do you even come up with this sort of conclusion? There is absolutely absolutely no way anyone could come up with that conclusion when only .016 percent of self-identified Catholics on CAF responded by clicking on Option #2. You don’t even know WHY they clicked on Option #2!! Your conclusion is based on such an extremely small amount of data in “research” so full of holes that a herd of elephants could go parading through without even touching it that I honestly question anyone’s ability to conclude anything from it. Your “research” is not research.

You posted a poll. An extremely small number of forum members responded. Yet you continue to hold onto your belief that “a majority of people who state that their religion of choice is Catholic support those prayers?” I find that unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. You are basing your conclusion on nothing more than a few opinions from Catholics. Is this something you do a lot? Is this how you come to your conclusions about Catholic teaching? By asking a few people? And you believe what they tell you? C’mon - I really can’t believe that you are that naive. I can’t because you don’t appear that way but I can’t help but wonder when I see how you are coming to this conclusion.

If I went into your church and there were 10,000 people there and I asked two of them about some practice I thought your church taught as appropriate and then based my conclusions about that practice based solely on the responses those two people gave, wouldn’t you be a bit concerned about my conclusions? I’m asking this because if I did that my conclusions would be based on more data that you received from people clicking on Option #2 on your poll.

With all due respect, Fair Lady, I suggest that instead of basing your conclusions about the practice Catholics have of praying to Mary on a few opinions from self-identified Catholics in a poorly conceived research project, you read the Catechism and find out what the Catholic Church states.

I’m not at all surprised that there are varying degrees of devotion to Mary among popes. My question would be, does that affect their leadership within the church?

Do you believe that the Pope is infallible in everything he says about the Catholic Church?

[SIGN]I Luv My Heinz 57!![/SIGN]

 

[Fair_Lady]

Do you believe that the Pope is infallible in everything he says about the Catholic Church?

[SIGN]I Luv My Heinz 57!![/SIGN]

No. Do you?

Edit: I don’t think we can consider any human being infallible.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Um, at the risk of starting World War III, may I ask exactly what the ‘objections’ to the prayers are?

Fair Lady, when you started off lisping the Scriptures at mother’s knee, I’m sure that you tried to understand them but (as St. Paul said), you had the mind of a child, you thought as a child, you spoke as a child.

Now, as a adult, and probably as an adult who has studied Scripture extensively, your understanding is radically ‘deeper’ than it was as a child, right?

You wouldn’t expect a young child to be able to understand you if you were delving into some esoteric Scriptural passage’s possible interpretation.

You might not even expect a young adult to be able to understand, particularly if the young adult came from a background where he or she had not been ‘used to’ studying Scripture.

You would expect that, before they discussed a ‘difficult’ point with you, that they had gone through the ‘milk’ of teaching in order to be able to address the ‘meat’, wouldn’t you?

Well, you see, when it comes to Mary, you’re in the ‘milk stage’ and some of these prayers are in the ‘meat’ stage.

A lot of our understanding of Mary is Scriptural (the rest is Oral Tradition based on the apostolic teachings which were handed down ‘orally’, that is, not written AT FIRST). For example, much of the Old Testament writing references to the Ark of the Covenant are understood to apply to Mary (who contained the Christ within her). This is rather ‘meaty’ stuff. If somebody isn’t used to even considering Mary in this regard, hearing her referred to in terms that are such as applied to the Holy ark seem. . .difficult.

IOW. . .you’re approaching these specific prayers from the outlook of a young child to whom they don’t ‘make sense’ because the child has not yet learned enough for them TO make sense.

I appreciate your graciousness in trying to offer an explanation for where I’m at with devotion to Mary, however it isn’t where I’m at. I actually am rejecting the practice of veneration and devotion to Mary as I have observed, read and heard of it. I have a deep respect for her as a person who played an important role in history, but she, like us, is and always was a human being.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No. Do you?

Edit: I don’t think we can consider any human being infallible.

And I think that, in the specific circumstances that are clearly laid out in Catholic teaching, that when the charism of infallibility is used, it is used correctly.

Only God can raise the dead. . .but He permitted St. Peter and St. Paul, among others, to utilize that power in certain circumstances. Why then do you find it difficult to imagine that His Holy Spirit can protect His own Church from teaching error on faith and morals?

How did you ‘expect’ that God would assure that people knew correct teaching? The Bible? Aside from the fact that it was not put into canon until 350 years after Christ’s resurrection, and that most people simply were not literate anyway for another 1500 years thereafter, the fact is that among Protestant denominations those who claim to ‘use Scripture alone’ disagree ‘vehemently’ on many texts. John 6, anyone? Who is correct in his interpretation, the Lutheran with a Real Presence or the non-denom with crackers and juice ‘remembrance?’

Where is the Holy Spirit to make it perfectly clear which of those two totally contradictory interpretations of John 6 is the truth? He must be ‘outside’ the two positions in order to judge. . .and if both groups are claiming “Bible authority”, the Bible is ‘contradicting itself’ and in any case a book cannot be an ‘authority’ without an interpreter. Who is the ‘infallible’ interpreter who can tell you which of the two positions on John 6 is correct? How do you know that your interpreter is infallible/correct? What is your proof?

You often have stated that you pray, and you listen for guidance. well and good. Obviously then, in the case above you have made a decision as to which of the two points is true. . .EITHER the Eucharist is a Real Presence or it isn’t.

Now, what exactly is your assurance that YOU are right, and the person who is studying scripture equally sincerely, and has an absolutely equal (if not greater) ‘assurance’ that the Spirit is telling HIM the truth? Why should we believe that you ‘got it right’ and others are wrong? How are you sure you heard the Holy Spirit and not ‘another’ spirit (because we know that they exist and that they disguise themselves as angels of light). You’re pretty much implying that when you personally ‘discern’ a voice you identify as the Spirit giving you an ‘interpretation’, that you, being right, are ‘infallible’. . .so you’re pretty much implying not that you don’t think human beings can’t be infallible, but that you and any Protestant reading Scripture **are infallible yourselves.

**

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I appreciate your graciousness in trying to offer an explanation for where I’m at with devotion to Mary, however it isn’t where I’m at. I actually am rejecting the practice of veneration and devotion to Mary as I have observed, read and heard of it. I have a deep respect for her as a person who played an important role in history, but she, like us, is and always was a human being.

You’re welcome, but I’m puzzled. Catholics do not now, and never have, taught that Mary is not a human being or is ‘more’ than a human being. She is, in fact, God’s most perfect human creation. . .a woman like all other women except that (like Eve before her) she was created without sin. Most perfect is a simple comparison. . .going from least perfect to most. . .and one does not ‘compare’ things which are unlike in this way. I don’t say that an apple is the most perfect pear, or that a god is the most perfect human, because apples aren’t pears and gods aren’t human! Like Eve, Mary had the ‘opportunity’ at any time to sin (being created without sin does not mean one is incapable of sin. After all, Eve was created without sin and yet sinned). But while Eve fell and became the ‘mother of all the living’, Mary did not sin and became the mother of all the redeemed, starting with her own Son who redeemed HER before her own conception. It’s very Scriptural. The parallels in the Old Testament of the Ark aren’t there just to provide quaint bits of Jewish culture!

If claiming that a ‘sinless’ Mary (and the Bible clearly indicates that she was sinless in Luke 2 when Gabriel greets her with the phrase found nowhere else, that she was literally ‘full of grace’) somehow makes her ‘not a human being’, then Adam and Eve were likewise not human either, for they likewise were made without sin to start.

 

[Des]

“Do everything in love” -This includes in-vitro fertilization.

Christian advocates for abortion use this same reasoning.

 

[Des]

Edit: I don’t think we can consider any human being infallible.

You don’t believe God could work through men to teach or write His Word without corruption? I will assume now you will toss your Bible in the garbage.

 

[Ignatius]

she, like us, is and always was a human being.

Indeed, you misunderstand and err of you believe that The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was not a human being. You would do well to argue against what the Catholic Church actually teaches rather than a strawman fallacy. If you do a little fact-checking using The Catechism (get it here: http://www.amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Church-U-S/dp/0385479670) then you can correct your erroneous ideas.
I’m not saying that you will agree, but you can then argue against actual Catholic teachings with which you disagree instead of futility arguing against what it doesn’t actually teach.

Just to be clear I’ll repeat again; The Catholic Church forbids giving worship due God along to anyone or anything other than God Himself.

If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at http://www.chnetwork.org/. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. As Jesus said, “He who eats My body and drinks My blood lives in Me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day.” And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life. (Mark 1:15b)

May the Grace and peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[Fair_Lady]

You posted a poll. An extremely small number of forum members responded. Yet you continue to hold onto your belief that “a majority of people who state that their religion of choice is Catholic support those prayers?”

Sorry, I wasn’t clear there. What I meant to say was that a majority of people **who participated in this poll **and who state that their religion of choice is Catholic support those prayers.

Do you believe that the Pope is infallible in everything he says about the Catholic Church?

[SIGN]I Luv My Heinz 57!![/SIGN]

I really don’t know. I guess it would depend on the depth of his knowledge. But that concerns me much less than if he were to be considered infallible in matters of spiritual discernment. Anyone who would claim infallibility in those matters should be seen as a red flag.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Only God can raise the dead. . .but He permitted St. Peter and St. Paul, among others, to utilize that power in certain circumstances. Why then do you find it difficult to imagine that His Holy Spirit can protect His own Church from teaching error on faith and morals?

 

[Fair_Lady]

You don’t believe God could work through men to teach or write His Word without corruption? I will assume now you will toss your Bible in the garbage.

God’s word is without corruption. Anything that taints God’s word comes from fallen man. I won’t be throwing God’s word into the garbage.

 

[Fair_Lady]

I’m not saying that you will agree, but you can then argue against actual Catholic teachings with which you disagree instead of futility arguing against what it doesn’t actually teach.

Just to be clear I’ll repeat again; The Catholic Church forbids giving worship due God along to anyone or anything other than God Himself.
What is puzzling is that if the Catholic Church forbids giving worship due to God to anyone or anything other than God Himself, why the devotions and prayers to Mary? I hear it time and time again that the church forbids those practices, but what I observe is very different.

Someone posted a link to St. Louis de Montfort’s True Devotion to Mary (post #8) and just the brief look I took filled me with utter dismay that anyone could believe those things of Mary! It’s a document that is filled with antiscriptural heresy. If the Catholic Church doesn’t condone that document, they need to take up the issue with ewtn.com, todayscatholicworld.com, unitypublishing.com, to name a few sites that promote the document in the name of the Catholic church.

I’ve seen Devotions to Mary on TV in which our local Catholic Church participates. Again, I was dismayed that those devotions and prayers would be directed at anyone other than our Almighty God!. Perhaps a new thread should be started on Devotions to Mary. There is so much to refute in light of scripture.

I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him.