Prayers to Mary

[LittleSoldier]

Why was there a necessity for Mary’s sinlessness? Why was it ‘fitting’? For no reason?

I think you have misunderstood. The poster you responded to is saying that it isn’t necessary, but is fitting.

The following is my opinion only and if I am misrepresenting the teachings of the Church I apologize and hope that somebody tells me:

Jesus could have come to earth as a full-grown adult, sitting on a throne and wearing a crown of gold and precious jewels. But He came to earth as an unborn child. It is fitting that the vessel He was conceived in would be pure, completely free from sin. So it makes sense that Mary, in whom He was conceived, would be pure, completely free from sin, and also from any inclination to succumb to temptation. The last part of that sentence means that Mary would never sin.

There are probably a million ways Jesus could have come to earth, but there is only one way that He did come to earth, and that is that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, who overshadowed a pure human being (who, like Eve, was born without Original Sin, but who, unlike Eve, never sinned), Mary. Mary is truly “full of grace,” more so than any other human being (with the exception of Jesus). Part of this grace is because she was conceived without Original Sin.

When the Angel Gabriel spoke to Mary, he called her “Full of Grace.” Not “you who will be full of grace by accepting this mission from God,” but “Full of Grace” in that she was already full of grace, literally, absolutely filled with grace. This was all before she even agreed to carry the Christ. This is where I made my error a few days ago and then caught it. I had written it incorrectly.

Does this help??

 

[LittleSoldier]

Working perhaps?

But she hasn’t been around for a couple of days and that is unlike her. Maybe her computer broke again and she hasn’t been able to get to another one. It’s just unusual for her to be gone this long.

I hope she is OK. I’m a little worried about her.

 

[crazzeto]

But she hasn’t been around for a couple of days and that is unlike her. Maybe her computer broke again and she hasn’t been able to get to another one. It’s just unusual for her to be gone this long.

I hope she is OK. I’m a little worried about her.

Maybe she’s realized we’re right and is currently converting…

I keed, I keed… I have no doubt she’s probably just tied up with every day life.

 

[LittleSoldier]

These are not MY quotes. These are from the Word of God (the Bible). It is not my job to convince anybody. that is the job of the Holy Spirit. If this offends you, I cannot apolgize for God’s word.

You quoted from the Bible. They are your quotes - not the Scipture passages themselves, but your quotes of those Scripture passages.

 

[mdifrancesco]

This is what you stated in Post 269:

And as for Mary being a sinner (and again, we are talking original sin - not a SINNER),
Mary even acknowledged that she needed a Savior. “And my spirit rejoices in God my SAVIOUR, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed” (Luke 1:47-48).** Mary knew that she was a sinner and that what was being done through her was by God’s grace and not any merit on her part. God did not choose Mary because of her “blessedness,” Mary became blessed when she submitted unto the LORD and carried the Lamb of God.** (only sinners need saviours)

The word “mediator,” which is found in six places in the New Testament comes from a Greek word that means; an action by someone on behalf of another in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant, a medium of communication, arbitrator or what we would call an intercessor.

This is what I found on the following website:

allaboutreligion.org/intercession-of-blessed-virgin-mary-faq.htm

What does the Bible say about the intercession of blessed virgin Mary? We find the answer to that question by studying several different Scriptures.** The word “mediator,” which is found in six places in the New Testament comes from a Greek word that means; an action by someone on behalf of another in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant, a medium of communication, arbitrator or what we would call an intercessor.**

In addition, Mary called herself a sinner in her “magnificent” because she acknowledged that she needed a Savior. “And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed” (Luke 1:47-48).** Mary knew that she was a sinner and that what was being done through her was by God’s grace and not any merit on her part. God did not choose Mary because of her “blessedness,” Mary became blessed when she submitted unto the LORD and carried the Lamb of God. **

They are identical, even the punctuation marks and the upper-case letters in the word “Lord.” I found this to be very strange.

I had that from past notes from a sermon I gave. I have never been on the site you forwarded. The only thing I can figure is that I had gotten a quote that I had not marked as such - and that quote was gotten from a different source.
anyway, I understand your point and I apologize for the mixup. I will make sure to be more diligent with what I say.
I did notice for my first few days on this site that it can get very exhausting and take an incredible amount of time defending a position on a couple topics at one time that seemingly never come to a conclusion. I will have to pace myself!

 

[mdifrancesco]

I think you have misunderstood. The poster you responded to is saying that it isn’t necessary, but is fitting.

The following is my opinion only and if I am misrepresenting the teachings of the Church I apologize and hope that somebody tells me:

Jesus could have come to earth as a full-grown adult, sitting on a throne and wearing a crown of gold and precious jewels. But He came to earth as an unborn child. It is fitting that the vessel He was conceived in would be pure, completely free from sin. So it makes sense that Mary, in whom He was conceived, would be pure, completely free from sin, and also from any inclination to succumb to temptation. The last part of that sentence means that Mary would never sin.

There are probably a million ways Jesus could have come to earth, but there is only one way that He did come to earth, and that is that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, who overshadowed a pure human being (who, like Eve, was born without Original Sin, but who, unlike Eve, never sinned), Mary. Mary is truly “full of grace,” more so than any other human being (with the exception of Jesus). Part of this grace is because she was conceived without Original Sin.

When the Angel Gabriel spoke to Mary, he called her “Full of Grace.” Not “you who will be full of grace by accepting this mission from God,” but “Full of Grace” in that she was already full of grace, literally, absolutely filled with grace. This was all before she even agreed to carry the Christ. This is where I made my error a few days ago and then caught it. I had written it incorrectly.

Does this help??

But if you use that analogy, you have to interpret it according to other texts that would show similar responses. The one that comes to mind to me is:
Judges 6:12 (King James Version)
“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.” Everyone knows that at that point of time, Gideon was not acting like a man of valour (he was threshing wheat in the wine press - he was hiding).
The point is God looks at us as a “finished product”. And calls things that are not… as though they were.
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 (King James Version)
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1 John 1:8-10 (King James Version)
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
Notice he is including himelf (WE)… that means christians.

 

[mdifrancesco]

But if you use that analogy, you have to interpret it according to other texts that would show similar responses. The one that comes to mind to me is:
Judges 6:12 (King James Version)
“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.” Everyone knows that at that point of time, Gideon was not acting like a man of valour (he was threshing wheat in the wine press - he was hiding).
The point is God looks at us as a “finished product”. And calls things that are not… as though they were.
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 (King James Version)
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1 John 1:8-10 (King James Version)
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
Notice he is including himelf (WE)… that means christians.

I don’t understand why you have to believe that Mary had to be without sin. The seed that was placed into her was by God Himself (Holy Spirit). The seed was still pure even though the vessel was not. God chose it that way. Let me slip off this point for a moment (and hopefully it won’t start a new thread…)
Jesus was the perfect mediator because:
Hebrews 4:15 (New American Standard)
“For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.”
The Bible also said He LEARNED obedience by the things He suffered. Isn’t it possible that because Jesus, needing to relate to us, is the reason He was born through a woman with original sin - as every other?
Hebrews 5:1-3 (New American Standard Bible)
"For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins;
he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself.

 

[davidv]

I don’t understand why you have to believe that Mary had to be without sin. The seed that was placed into her was by God Himself (Holy Spirit). The seed was still pure even though the vessel was not. God chose it that way. Let me slip off this point for a moment (and hopefully it won’t start a new thread…)

If you don’t understand something, does that make it untrue?

Jesus was the perfect mediator because:
Hebrews 4:15 (New American Standard)
“For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.”
The Bible also said He LEARNED obedience by the things He suffered. Isn’t it possible that because Jesus, needing to relate to us, is the reason He was born through a woman with original sin - as every other?

Jesus didn’t need original sin to experience temptation, did he?

Hebrews 5:1-3 (New American Standard Bible)
"For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins;
he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself.

 

[Monte1945]

Dear Fair Lady,

The question is: Who decides if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

Romans 8:26

26 And as well as this, the Spirit too comes to help us in our weakness, for, when we do not know how to pray properly, then the Spirit personally makes our petitions for us in groans that cannot be put into words;
27 and he who can see into all hearts knows what the Spirit means because the prayers that the Spirit makes for God’s holy people are always in accordance with the mind of God.

 

[Monte1945]

Actually, I believe God is the only one in heaven who hears me. I can’t really find any scriptural reference that says otherwise (keeping in mind I believe that the “66 book” Bible is the true one - and that’s another thread…

Using your personal accepted Bible books… there is this:

Rev. 5:8

The Lamb came forward to take the scroll from the right hand of the One sitting on the throne, 8 and when he took it, the four living creatures prostrated themselves before him and with them the twenty-four elders; each one of them was holding a harp and had a golden bowl full of incense which are the prayers of the saints.

Is that scripture enough for you?

 

[crazzeto]

Romans 8:26

26 And as well as this, the Spirit too comes to help us in our weakness, for, when we do not know how to pray properly, then the Spirit personally makes our petitions for us in groans that cannot be put into words;
27 and he who can see into all hearts knows what the Spirit means because the prayers that the Spirit makes for God’s holy people are always in accordance with the mind of God.

Yeah, I’m curious to see the response to this… His resposne to sinlessness in the bible was out of context and really made no sense. Lets see what he does with Rev 8

 

[Fair_Lady]

But she hasn’t been around for a couple of days and that is unlike her. Maybe her computer broke again and she hasn’t been able to get to another one. It’s just unusual for her to be gone this long.

I hope she is OK. I’m a little worried about her.

Well, looky here at what the cat dragged in…

Thanks for your concerns. I won’t be around much for about another week or two - working a lot of overtime, including two days of this long weekend. But please do carry on…I’ll be peeking in once in awhile to see what you’re all up to.

Thank you to Christian B and mdifransesco for bringing forth some good meat to chew on.

 

[Fair_Lady]

To prove the divine nature of Christ Jesus’s birth, do you think that the ancient Jews would have just taken the Apostles (or I hate to say it, but even Christ) at their words regarding the divine nature of the birth? The Holy Mother’s? Women weren’t even allowed to testify legally!

There needed to be no doubts that this was a divine birth. Mary would be ever virgin, ever sinless, for the greater glory of God.

Something to consider, crazzeto - Jesus was uniquely fully God and fully man. He had a divine Father (God) and human mother (Mary). That Mary was fully human with a sin nature like everyone else, doesn’t take anything away from the nature of Jesus’ birth. Jesus’ conception was truly miraculous and what God required of Mary was simply to carry and birth His child.

 

[mdifrancesco]

Yeah, I’m curious to see the response to this… His resposne to sinlessness in the bible was out of context and really made no sense. Lets see what he does with Rev 8

The way you talk, you would like to see nothing more than me fall with this. It won’t happen.
While despised on earth, these prayers are brought to God in golden bowls. They are prayers of the ages. There is NOTHING in Revelation 5:8 that says what you claim.
Psalm 141 (King James Version)
“Lord, I cry unto thee: make haste unto me; give ear unto my voice, when I cry unto thee. Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.”
And by the way, we are the saints. Not someone given that title by men that is now in heaven fielding our prayers.
Romans 8:27 (King James Version)
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

As outrageous as this may sound to you, God does not need anyone to help Him with answering our prayers. Even when we don’t know what to pray, His Spirit ALONE translates our prayers.

I can bring scripture as well as you can, but it’s not going to get us anywhere…

 

[crazzeto]

Something to consider, crazzeto - Jesus was uniquely fully God and fully man. He had a divine Father (God) and human mother (Mary). That Mary was fully human with a sin nature like everyone else, doesn’t take anything away from the nature of Jesus’ birth. Jesus’ conception was truly miraculous and what God required of Mary was simply to carry and birth His child.

Something to consider, Jesus was utterly rejected by many in his ministry. A powerful statement about how the freedom God gives us is a double edged sword. Knowing this, God decided to make a very loud statement with his birth.

Edit
I’m very glad you’re back posting and well, I was getting a little concerned not seeing you. Welcome back.

 

[crazzeto]

The way you talk, you would like to see nothing more than me fall with this. It won’t happen.
While despised on earth, these prayers are brought to God in golden bowls. They are prayers of the ages. There is NOTHING in Revelation 5:8 that says what you claim.
Psalm 141 (King James Version)
“Lord, I cry unto thee: make haste unto me; give ear unto my voice, when I cry unto thee. Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.”
And by the way, we are the saints. Not someone given that title by men that is now in heaven fielding our prayers.
Romans 8:27 (King James Version)
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

As outrageous as this may sound to you, God does not need anyone to help Him with answering our prayers. Even when we don’t know what to pray, His Spirit ALONE translates our prayers.

I can bring scripture as well as you can, but it’s not going to get us anywhere…

We’re not Saints, I’m really not sure where you get that idea from but we’re not. Literally, a Saint is someone in heaven experiencing the beatific vision of God. Does that sound like us?

So, here’s the KJV:

And when he had taken the book, the
four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before
the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials
full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Here’s the Duay:
drbo.org/chapter/73005.htm

8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Sorry for no clickable link on the KJV, it seems that publishers don’t like a nice web enabled HTML version, but PDF instead. You can see the similarity in the traslations, they both say the same thing. The Saints, who are in heaven, experiencing the beatific vision, most certainly have their prayers heard by God.

In fact I find it quite bizzar that you try so hard to twist the interpetation such that the Saints prayers couldn’t possibly be heard. In reality, your theology is saying death wins, when you die God no longer hears you, you’re no longer connected with anything else, or care about anything. That doesn’t sound like the victory of the lamb to me.

 

[Cristian_B]

We’re not Saints, I’m really not sure where you get that idea from but we’re not. Literally, a Saint is someone in heaven experiencing the beatific vision of God. Does that sound like us?

Those whom you speak about (those who are in heaven in the presence of God) are called ‘angels’, in case you forgot. The Bible calls all Christians saints, because they have been sanctified by the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.

 

[LittleSoldier]

But if you use that analogy, you have to interpret it according to other texts that would show similar responses. The one that comes to mind to me is:
Judges 6:12 (King James Version)
“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.” Everyone knows that at that point of time, Gideon was not acting like a man of valour (he was threshing wheat in the wine press - he was hiding).
The point is God looks at us as a “finished product”. And calls things that are not… as though they were.
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 (King James Version)
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1 John 1:8-10 (King James Version)
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
Notice he is including himelf (WE)… that means christians.

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand. Where did I use an analogy?? I don’t think I posted an analogy anywhere.

Your quotes say (again) nothing about Mary not having sinned. You interpreted Judges 6:12 by saying “Gideon was not acting like a man of valour.” That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a man of valour.

“And calls things that are not as though they are.” This makes no sense to me. What does this have to do with Mary not sinning?? Are you saying here that God lies to us? I am truly confused!!

Corinthians 1:27-29 doesn’t even mention sinning (or Mary, for that matter), and as far as I can see doesn’t have any relevance to this discussion at all!!

1 John 1:8-10 does refer to sinning, but says nothing about Mary and yes, he may be including Christians (although that is an interpretation), but he may also be including Jesus. Including Jesus would be an error and I can say that if he included Mary he would have been wrong, too. And, remember, this is a letter, most likely written long after Mary left this earth. The letter had a specific readership and what was said in the letter refers to the people for whom the letter is written. Of course these people sinned. But that doesn’t mean that Mary sinned!!

 

[LittleSoldier]

Those whom you speak about (those who are in heaven in the presence of God) are called ‘angels’, in case you forgot. The Bible calls all Christians saints, because they have been sanctified by the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.

Would you please back up this (extremely strange to me) idea about angels? Are you saying that people who have died and are now in heaven are now angels? And what about people who aren’t Christian? Are you saying they can’t be saints? Because they most certainly can be saints. Jesus didn’t die just for the salvation of Christians - He died for the salvation of everyone.

 

[LittleSoldier]

We’re not Saints, I’m really not sure where you get that idea from but we’re not. Literally, a Saint is someone in heaven experiencing the beatific vision of God. Does that sound like us?

So, here’s the KJV:

Here’s the Duay:
drbo.org/chapter/73005.htm

Sorry for no clickable link on the KJV, it seems that publishers don’t like a nice web enabled HTML version, but PDF instead. You can see the similarity in the traslations, they both say the same thing. The Saints, who are in heaven, experiencing the beatific vision, most certainly have their prayers heard by God.

In fact I find it quite bizzar that you try so hard to twist the interpetation such that the Saints prayers couldn’t possibly be heard. In reality, your theology is saying death wins, when you die God no longer hears you, you’re no longer connected with anything else, or care about anything. That doesn’t sound like the victory of the lamb to me.

It sounds like hell to me, as we are separated from God. It sounds like the most horrible thing imaginable, IMHO.