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LittleSoldier
Guest
Please provide those quotes from Scripture. I would like to see them because so far I don’t think any of the passages you have posted have anything to do with this discussion. It’s not going to get us anywhere?? Well, that is quite possible as you haven’t provided any relevant Scripture so far, but maybe you can and I would like to read what you have written about this.The way you talk, you would like to see nothing more than me fall with this. It won’t happen.
While despised on earth, these prayers are brought to God in golden bowls. They are prayers of the ages. There is NOTHING in Revelation 5:8 that says what you claim.
Psalm 141 (King James Version)
“Lord, I cry unto thee: make haste unto me; give ear unto my voice, when I cry unto thee. Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.”
And by the way, we are the saints. Not someone given that title by men that is now in heaven fielding our prayers.
Romans 8:27 (King James Version)
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
As outrageous as this may sound to you, God does not need anyone to help Him with answering our prayers. Even when we don’t know what to pray, His Spirit ALONE translates our prayers.
I can bring scripture as well as you can, but it’s not going to get us anywhere…
You know, it doesn’t sound outrageous that “God does not need anyone to help Him with answering our prayers.” In fact, it doesn’t sound outrageous that God does not need anyone to help Him with hearing our prayers in the first place.
Why do you think we are here?? Does God even need us? He is omniscient and omnipotent. Why were we created??
God created us because He loves us. He loves the idea of you, me, and every other single person in the world so much that He created us from love. You make God sound so wimpy - I’m sorry, but that is what I see. You don’t seem to understand that it brings joy to God and those in heaven when we glorify Him.
Why is it so wrong for God to allow us to be with Him in His glory?? Why is it so wrong for God to want us to love, honor, and ask His mother to pray for us? We pray to Mary because we love her. It is a sign of honor. I don’t ask my enemy to pray for me - I ask my friend and I ask someone who is so pure and was honored by carrying the Christ both physically and spiritually. Do you really want us to ignore Mary??
If Jesus followed the Ten Commandments, He honored His mother, right? And if He honored His mother I will do likewise because I want to be as Christ-like as possible. I honor Mary when I pray to her and when I just talk to her (I do just talk to her, quite often).
ANY person who has died and has gone to heaven is a saint. Are you saying that Catholics believe that only people given that title by men are saints?? That is not Church teaching. Some people who have died and gone to heaven are canonized by the Church. These are recognized saints, simply because we know they are in heaven (and it’s hard to get canonized. There is a long, time-consuming procedure). But you don’t have to be canonized to be a saint!! That would mean my Mom and Dad and every one else that I love who has died can never be a saint. In fact, it means that I will never be a saint because I am sure that nobody I have known personally or myself will be canonized by the Church. That doesn’t mean that others (and I) aren’t saints or won’t be saints.And by the way, we are the saints. Not someone given that title by men that is now in heaven fielding our prayers.
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mdifrancesco
Guest
it included everyone but jesus - as he was talking about jesus being the one who forgives. You cannot get past this scripture so you choose to attack the letter itself. The problem is you will not seek the truth, so will not find it.i’m sorry, but i don’t understand. Where did i use an analogy?? I don’t think i posted an analogy anywhere.
you quoted mary being full of grace before she took on her role. The scripture in judges shows another situation where an angel called someone to their fulfillment prior to them being what the bible said they were (mary - full of grace / gideon - man of valor)
your quotes say (again) nothing about mary not having sinned. You interpreted judges 6:12 by saying “gideon was not acting like a man of valour.” that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a man of valour.
nothing in the bible says mary was sinless - so you aren’t proving your point - you are just basing this on your doctrine (which cannot be proven)
“and calls things that are not as though they are.” this makes no sense to me. What does this have to do with mary not sinning?? Are you saying here that god lies to us? I am truly confused!!
the statement is easy to understand - god calls us by what we will be. Again… (mary - full of grace / gideon - man of valor)
corinthians 1:27-29 doesn’t even mention sinning (or mary, for that matter), and as far as i can see doesn’t have any relevance to this discussion at all!!
1 john 1:8-10 does refer to sinning, but says nothing about mary and yes, he may be including christians (although that is an interpretation), but he may also be including jesus. Including jesus would be an error and i can say that if he included mary he would have been wrong, too. And, remember, this is a letter, most likely written long after mary left this earth. The letter had a specific readership and what was said in the letter refers to the people for whom the letter is written. Of course these people sinned. But that doesn’t mean that mary sinned!!
End of discussion - it’s between you and god now…
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mdifrancesco
Guest
you don’t have to be dead to be a saint. Read all the scriptures in the new testament. Paul is going to minister to the saints… Is he now ministering to dead people?please provide those quotes from scripture. I would like to see them because so far i don’t think any of the passages you have posted have anything to do with this discussion. It’s not going to get us anywhere?? Well, that is quite possible as you haven’t provided any relevant scripture so far, but maybe you can and i would like to read what you have written about this.
You know, it doesn’t sound outrageous that “god does not need anyone to help him with answering our prayers.” in fact, it doesn’t sound outrageous that god does not need anyone to help him with hearing our prayers in the first place.
GOD IS ABLE - I AM NOT AND NO ONE ELSE IS EITHER (APART FROM HIM)
Why do you think we are here?? Does god even need us? He is omniscient and omnipotent. Why were we created??
THE BIBLE SAYS - FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE. WHEN WE ARE OBEDIENT TO HIM, WE ARE WORKING WITH HIM.
God created us because he loves us. He loves the idea of you, me, and every other single person in the world so much that he created us from love. You make god sound so wimpy - i’m sorry, but that is what i see. You don’t seem to understand that it brings joy to god and those in heaven when we glorify him.
GOD IS NOT WIMPY. I NEVER SAID HE WAS.
Why is it so wrong for god to allow us to be with him in his glory?? Why is it so wrong for god to want us to love, honor, and ask his mother to pray for us? We pray to mary because we love her. It is a sign of honor. I don’t ask my enemy to pray for me - i ask my friend and i ask someone who is so pure and was honored by carrying the christ both physically and spiritually. Do you really want us to ignore mary??
I AM NOT DOWNPLAYING ANYONE’S ROLE THAT GOD HAS USED. AND CELEBRATING THAT FACT IS NOT AN ISSUE. WHAT I DISAGREE ON IS THAT NO ONE WILL SHARE HIS GLORY. AND BELIEVERS IN HEAVEN ARE NOT ANSWERING ANY PRAYERS. WE DON’T NEED GOD + ANYTHING ELSE FOR SALVATION. HE DOESN’T NEED HELP WITH THE SALVATION PROCESS AND HE DOESN’T NEED HELP WITH OUR PRAYERS TO HIM.
If jesus followed the ten commandments, he honored his mother, right? And if he honored his mother i will do likewise because i want to be as christ-like as possible. I honor mary when i pray to her and when i just talk to her (i do just talk to her, quite often).
HONOR HER… YES. PRAYING TO HER IS NOT BIBLICAL. PERIOD.
any person who has died and has gone to heaven is a saint. Are you saying that catholics believe that only people given that title by men are saints?? That is not church teaching. Some people who have died and gone to heaven are canonized by the church. These are recognized saints, simply because we know they are in heaven (and it’s hard to get canonized. There is a long, time-consuming procedure). But you don’t have to be canonized to be a saint!! That would mean my mom and dad and every one else that i love who has died can never be a saint. In fact, it means that i will never be a saint because i am sure that nobody i have known personally or myself will be canonized by the church. That doesn’t mean that others (and i) aren’t saints or won’t be saints.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I think some posters here have forgotten that it has been brought up before that it was not necessary for Mary to be born without sin. However, it is fitting that she be. If she was (and is) “blessed among women,” it seems logical and fitting that she should be honored a bit more than Eve. Eve was also created without original sin, but she sinned.Something to consider, crazzeto - Jesus was uniquely fully God and fully man. He had a divine Father (God) and human mother (Mary). That Mary was fully human with a sin nature like everyone else, doesn’t take anything away from the nature of Jesus’ birth. Jesus’ conception was truly miraculous and what God required of Mary was simply to carry and birth His child.
Mary was not born with original sin and did not sin. That is not to say that she was not tempted. Even Jesus was tempted. But for Mary to be honored (and Jesus, in following the Fourth Commandment would honor her to His best ability), it is fitting that she would be born without original sin. Surely Jesus would honor Mary more than Eve!!
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Actually, I think I agree with you here. I think there can be saints on earth. But I am new at this and am not quite sure about the Church teaching on this. However, I do know that we can be part of the “Communion of Saints.” But those who have died and are in heaven are also saints.you don’t have to be dead to be a saint. Read all the scriptures in the new testament. Paul is going to minister to the saints… Is he now ministering to dead people?
This explains the “Communion of Saints”:
The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. The participants in that solidarity are called saints by reason of their destination and of their partaking of the fruits of the Redemption (1 Corinthians 1:2 — Greek Text). The damned are thus excluded from the communion of saints. The living, even if they do not belong to the body of the true Church, share in it according to the measure of their union with Christ and with the soul of the Church. St. Thomas teaches (III:8:4) that the angels, though not redeemed, enter the communion of saints because they come under Christ’s power and receive of His gratia capitis.
newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm
This does not change what I wrote, although I was considering editing that post and adding the part about saints on earth. In fact, I was just researching that very thing.
P.S. Please don’t change my quotes by inserting your thoughts into them. The proper way is to break my quote up into pieces and then respond to each piece. Right now it appears that I stated those sentences (in blue) because they are in my quote. Also, it makes it very difficult for others to respond to what you stated using the function. The only way I can think to do it is to cut and paste my quote, with your responses, and then somehow pull them apart.
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mdifrancesco
Guest
what you are saying is not biblical - it is man’s interpretation only. No where in the scriptures does it say mary did not sin. (and the response back will be: There is nowhere in the bible that says she didn’t) i can’t respond to that - it makes no sense. And there is no other answer that will be given (except the “full of grace” issue which i have already answered).i think some posters here have forgotten that it has been brought up before that it was not necessary for mary to be born without sin. However, it is fitting that she be. If she was (and is) “blessed among women,” it seems logical and fitting that she should be honored a bit more than eve. Eve was also created without original sin, but she sinned.
Mary was not born with original sin and did not sin. That is not to say that she was not tempted. Even jesus was tempted. But for mary to be honored (and jesus, in following the fourth commandment would honor her to his best ability), it is fitting that she would be born without original sin. Surely jesus would honor mary more than eve!!
You will proceed to tear apart all the scriptures that say all have sinned… And find ways to say it meant everyone but mary.
It is wrong and there is no way around it. Period.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
NOTE: The quotes in Posts 332 and 333 are not entirely mine. A responder to that post inserted his responses into my quote. I did not state anything that is in blue.
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mdifrancesco
Guest
i am still trying to figure out how all this works - sorry.actually, i think i agree with you here. I think there can be saints on earth. But i am new at this and am not quite sure about the church teaching on this. However, i do know that we can be part of the “communion of saints.” but those who have died and are in heaven are also saints.
This explains the “communion of saints”:
The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. The participants in that solidarity are called saints by reason of their destination and of their partaking of the fruits of the redemption (1 corinthians 1:2 — greek text). The damned are thus excluded from the communion of saints. The living, even if they do not belong to the body of the true church, share in it according to the measure of their union with christ and with the soul of the church. St. Thomas teaches (iii:8:4) that the angels, though not redeemed, enter the communion of saints because they come under christ’s power and receive of his gratia capitis.
newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm
this does not change what i wrote, although i was considering editing that post and adding the part about saints on earth. In fact, i was just researching that very thing.
P.s. Please don’t change my quotes by inserting your thoughts into them. The proper way is to break my quote up into pieces and then respond to each piece. Right now it appears that i stated those sentences (in blue) because they are in my quote. Thanks.
Also, some of what you are saying is coming from sources other than the 66 books of the bible which i adhere to. There is no way angels are considered saints because they are not redeemed (regardless of what any man teaches).
And as far as the “saints” being the believers (both dead and alive)that was why the interpretaions in revelation 5:8 held true. There is no one in heaven answering our prayers except god himself.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Actually I am saying it meant everyone but Mary and Jesus.what you are saying is not biblical - it is man’s interpretation only. No where in the scriptures does it say mary did not sin. (and the response back will be: There is nowhere in the bible that says she didn’t) i can’t respond to that - it makes no sense. And there is no other answer that will be given (except the “full of grace” issue which i have already answered).
You will proceed to tear apart all the scriptures that say all have sinned… And find ways to say it meant everyone but mary.
It is wrong and there is no way around it. Period.
What you are doing is interpreting Scripture yourself. And you do argue from silence. Of course the Bible can’t cover everything - if it did it would be so huge that it wouldn’t fit on the earth:
“But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”
[John 21:25, Douay-Rheims Bible]
This is one of the problems that occur when people rely solely on the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible state that everything we should believe is in the Bible. The Bible doesn’t even state which books belong in the Bible!!
So, we interpret. You interpret a passage one way and believe that you are correct and I interpret a passage another way and believe that I am correct and we both believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit when we interpret.
So who is right??
I rely on the authority of the Church for two reasons:
(1) Jesus founded the Church on Peter and stated:
“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”
[Matthew 16:18-19, Douay-Rheims Bible]
(2) Those in the Church who have interpreted the Bible are much more intelligent and knowledgeable than me and I trust them.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Where does the Bible state that those particular books are the only books that belong in the Bible??i am still trying to figure out how all this works - sorry.
Also, some of what you are saying is coming from sources other than the 66 books of the bible which i adhere to. There is no way angels are considered saints because they are not redeemed (regardless of what any man teaches).
And as far as the “saints” being the believers (both dead and alive)that was why the interpretaions in revelation 5:8 held true. There is no one in heaven answering our prayers except god himself.
What do you mean by “answering?”
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I disagree. God is able to hear our prayers, and those who I ask to pray for me, both on earth and in heaven, can hear me, too. I think part of the problem here is the definition of “answer.” What do you mean by “answering our prayers?” I’m sorry - I think I already asked you this in another post.mdifrancesco:
GOD IS ABLE - I AM NOT AND NO ONE ELSE IS EITHER (APART FROM HIM)
And that means He loves us, yes?? And He loves us to be obedient to Him. So it brings joy to Him and to all in heaven.mdifrancsco:
THE BIBLE SAYS - FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE. WHEN WE ARE OBEDIENT TO HIM, WE ARE WORKING WITH HIM.
“I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.” [Luke 15:7, Douay-Rheims Bible]
God is omniscient. He knows if we will do penance if we sin. He already knows. To me, this passage shows that there is joy in heaven that goes beyond God’s joy (which of course transcends all other joy).
Also:
“And behold an angel of the Lord stood by them and the brightness of God shone round about them: and they feared with a great fear. And the angel said to them: Fear not; for behold, I bring to you good tidings of great joy that shall be to all people: For, this day is born to you a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord, in the city of David. And this shall be a sign unto you. You shall find the infant wrapped in swaddling clothes and laid in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multititude of the heavenly army, praising God and saying: Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will.” [Luke 2:9-14]
If the angels are not sharing in God’s glory, they are certainly sharing in His joy!!
I never said you said He was wimpy. I said “You make God sound so wimpy.”mdifrancesco:
GOD IS NOT WIMPY. I NEVER SAID HE WAS.
I agree that He doesn’t need help with the salvation process and that He doesn’t need help with our prayers to Him. But, really, He doesn’t even need our prayers. Or us. But He enjoys us. He loves us. It honors God to pray to Him, and it honors Mary and God to pray to Mary. And it honors the other saints and God when we pray to the saints. God allows us to share in His glory, as part of Him.mdifrancesco:
I AM NOT DOWNPLAYING ANYONE’S ROLE THAT GOD HAS USED. AND CELEBRATING THAT FACT IS NOT AN ISSUE. WHAT I DISAGREE ON IS THAT NO ONE WILL SHARE HIS GLORY. AND BELIEVERS IN HEAVEN ARE NOT ANSWERING ANY PRAYERS. WE DON’T NEED GOD + ANYTHING ELSE FOR SALVATION. HE DOESN’T NEED HELP WITH THE SALVATION PROCESS AND HE DOESN’T NEED HELP WITH OUR PRAYERS TO HIM.
“Abide in me: and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.” [John 15:5, Douay-Rheims Bible]
How do you honor her??mdifrancesco:
HONOR HER… YES. PRAYING TO HER IS NOT BIBLICAL. PERIOD.
M
mdifrancesco
Guest
And so proves that there is no way to have a serious debate… Don’t sell yourself short. God will reveal His truth to you. I fear for anyone that says we cannot rely solely on the Bible. It is God’s word. When Jesus came, he fulfilled the mysteries of God. Ask Him. Don’t ask man. Jesus said you will know the truth and it will set you free.Actually I am saying it meant everyone but Mary and Jesus.
What you are doing is interpreting Scripture yourself. And you do argue from silence. Of course the Bible can’t cover everything - if it did it would be so huge that it wouldn’t fit on the earth:
“But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”
[John 21:25, Douay-Rheims Bible]
This is one of the problems that occur when people rely solely on the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible state that everything we should believe is in the Bible. The Bible doesn’t even state which books belong in the Bible!!
So, we interpret. You interpret a passage one way and believe that you are correct and I interpret a passage another way and believe that I am correct and we both believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit when we interpret.
So who is right??
I rely on the authority of the Church for two reasons:
(1) Jesus founded the Church on Peter and stated:
“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”
[Matthew 16:18-19, Douay-Rheims Bible]
(2) Those in the Church who have interpreted the Bible are much more intelligent and knowledgeable than me and I trust them.
I
Indyann
Guest
If you are relying solely on the Bible, how can you know the truth? You don’t even have seven of the books of the inspired Word of God? Don’t you feel cheated?And so proves that there is no way to have a serious debate… Don’t sell yourself short. God will reveal His truth to you. I fear for anyone that says we cannot rely solely on the Bible. It is God’s word. When Jesus came, he fulfilled the mysteries of God. Ask Him. Don’t ask man. Jesus said you will know the truth and it will set you free.
A man removed them, you know. You can’t know the truth and be free, if you are missing some of God’s Word.
R
regression
Guest
I have been trying to keep up with this thread and had to respond to this. Before Jesus ascended to Heaven, he didn’t give the apostles a bible, He told them to go and teach. The Catholic Church still obeys Jesus and does what He commanded. No where in the bible does it say one should rely solely on the bible on matters of faith and morals. And no where in the bible does it say what books belong in the bible. The Catholic Church said what books are in the bible. And then 1,200 years a man decided he knew better and removed some.And so proves that there is no way to have a serious debate… Don’t sell yourself short. God will reveal His truth to you. I fear for anyone that says we cannot rely solely on the Bible. It is God’s word. When Jesus came, he fulfilled the mysteries of God. Ask Him. Don’t ask man. Jesus said you will know the truth and it will set you free.
You keep saying what the Catholic Church teaches is what man teaches. Isn’t it just a man that decided to remove books from the bible? Why listen to him, just a man?
M
mdifrancesco
Guest
i disagree. God is able to hear our prayers, and those who i ask to pray for me, both on earth and in heaven, can hear me, too. I think part of the problem here is the definition of “answer.” what do you mean by “answering our prayers?” i’m sorry - i think i already asked you this in another post.
And that means he loves us, yes?? And he loves us to be obedient to him. So it brings joy to him and to all in heaven.
“i say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.” [luke 15:7, douay-rheims bible]
god is omniscient. He knows if we will do penance if we sin. He already knows. To me, this passage shows that there is joy in heaven that goes beyond god’s joy (which of course transcends all other joy).
Also:
“and behold an angel of the lord stood by them and the brightness of god shone round about them: And they feared with a great fear. And the angel said to them: Fear not; for behold, i bring to you good tidings of great joy that shall be to all people: For, this day is born to you a saviour, who is christ the lord, in the city of david. And this shall be a sign unto you. You shall find the infant wrapped in swaddling clothes and laid in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multititude of the heavenly army, praising god and saying: Glory to god in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will.” [luke 2:9-14]
if the angels are not sharing in god’s glory, they are certainly sharing in his joy!!
I never said you said he was wimpy. I said “you make god sound so wimpy.”
i agree that he doesn’t need help with the salvation process and that he doesn’t need help with our prayers to him. But, really, he doesn’t even need our prayers. Or us. But he enjoys us. He loves us. It honors god to pray to him, and it honors mary and god to pray to mary. And it honors the other saints and god when we pray to the saints. God allows us to share in his glory, as part of him.
“abide in me: And i in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine: You the branches. He that abideth in me, and i in him, the same beareth much fruit: For without me you can do nothing.” [john 15:5, douay-rheims bible]
how do you honor her??
M
mdifrancesco
Guest
i acknowledge what she did. She was blessed of god. She was blessed above all women. She was an obedient servant.i disagree. God is able to hear our prayers, and those who i ask to pray for me, both on earth and in heaven, can hear me, too. I think part of the problem here is the definition of “answer.” what do you mean by “answering our prayers?” i’m sorry - i think i already asked you this in another post.
there is no scriptural basis for believing anyone who has died and in heaven can hear our prayers.
and that means he loves us, yes?? And he loves us to be obedient to him. So it brings joy to him and to all in heaven.
i already acknowledged he loves us.
“i say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.” [luke 15:7, douay-rheims bible]
god is omniscient. He knows if we will do penance if we sin. He already knows. To me, this passage shows that there is joy in heaven that goes beyond god’s joy (which of course transcends all other joy).
no problem with this statement. But i fail to see how this negates what i have said.
also:
“and behold an angel of the lord stood by them and the brightness of god shone round about them: And they feared with a great fear. And the angel said to them: Fear not; for behold, i bring to you good tidings of great joy that shall be to all people: For, this day is born to you a saviour, who is christ the lord, in the city of david. And this shall be a sign unto you. You shall find the infant wrapped in swaddling clothes and laid in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multititude of the heavenly army, praising god and saying: Glory to god in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will.” [luke 2:9-14]
if the angels are not sharing in god’s glory, they are certainly sharing in his joy!!
again, no problem with this statement. But i fail to see how this negates what i have said.
i never said you said he was wimpy. I said “you make god sound so wimpy.”
sounds the same to me, but i will concede
i agree that he doesn’t need help with the salvation process and that he doesn’t need help with our prayers to him. But, really, he doesn’t even need our prayers. Or us. But he enjoys us. He loves us. It honors god to pray to him, and it honors mary and god to pray to mary. And it honors the other saints and god when we pray to the saints. God allows us to share in his glory, as part of him.
this is not a scriptural statement. Nowhere in the bible does it say we honor the saints by praying to them. It also says nowhere in the bible to even pray to them period.
“abide in me: And i in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine: You the branches. He that abideth in me, and i in him, the same beareth much fruit: For without me you can do nothing.” [john 15:5, douay-rheims bible]
this is a statement by jesus to those who are in him. That apart from him we can do nothing. This says nothing about your point.
how do you honor her??
That’s it. Don’t turn “honor” into “homage”.
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mdifrancesco
Guest
Interesting you state that a man removed the books, but man is who you are relying on to help you understand the Bible.If you are relying solely on the Bible, how can you know the truth? You don’t even have seven of the books of the inspired Word of God? Don’t you feel cheated?
A man removed them, you know. You can’t know the truth and be free, if you are missing some of God’s Word.
And the truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit. He leads us in all truth. I don’t rely on man. I rely on God.
L
LionHeart777
Guest
Greetings mdifrancesco,And so proves that there is no way to have a serious debate… Don’t sell yourself short. God will reveal His truth to you. I fear for anyone that says we cannot rely solely on the Bible. It is God’s word. When Jesus came, he fulfilled the mysteries of God. Ask Him. Don’t ask man. Jesus said you will know the truth and it will set you free.
I don’t think that Little Soldier or any Catholic would disagree with you that the Bible is God’s word (although we do disagree about which books belong in the Bible as others have pointed out.)
Here is a question to think about:
where does the Bible say that we are to rely solely on the Bible?
To Little Soldiers credit, 2 Peter tells us regarding the Epistles of St. Paul, in the context of warning against false teachers, that:
“16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter+3&version=KJV ) (accessed 2/ 13/ 09)
If some of what Paul writes is hard to understand and there were people in the Apostles’ day (and we probably both believe now also) those who “wrest” it and other Scripture “unto their own destruction.”, why fault Little Soldier for looking to the Church?
I think that he is being obedient to what the Apostle James said:
“1My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.” (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+3&version=KJV) (Accessed 2/ 13/ 10)
The issue about the sinlessness of Mary has already, IMO, been addressed by the Church (Mathew 18:17.) If you think that I am stretching to equate the CC with the Church Jesus was speaking about in this passage, who is the better candidate in your opinion?
-peace
A
adstrinity
Guest
Actually, yes, the angels are saints because they are holy. It is an English misunderstanding that there is a distinction between “Saint” & “Holy”. In Spanish, one has “Sancta Maria” – Saint Mary (Mother of God), but, in Armenian, the Holy! Holy! Holy in the Divine Liturgy is “Soorp! Soorp! Soorp!” The saints in Armenian are also preceeded by “Soorp”. Soorp Mesrob and Soorp Krikori and such…i am still trying to figure out how all this works - sorry.
Also, some of what you are saying is coming from sources other than the 66 books of the bible which i adhere to. There is no way angels are considered saints because they are not redeemed (regardless of what any man teaches).
And as far as the “saints” being the believers (both dead and alive)that was why the interpretaions in revelation 5:8 held true. There is no one in heaven answering our prayers except god himself.
There is nobody answering our prayers but God, but, that doesn’t exclude that the saints in Heaven don’t interceed for us, hear our prayers, or at the very least, deliver our prayers to God.
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