Prayers to Mary

[mdifrancesco]

where does the Bible say that we are to rely solely on the Bible?

I don’t know how to answer that… That is like buying something that comes with an instruction manual. Is not the manual instruction enough? If the manufacturer though there should be more, more would have been written…

*To Little Soldiers credit, 2 Peter tells us, in the context of warning against false teachers, :

"15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Peter+3&version=KJV) (accessed 2/ 13/ 09)*

Who is the false teacher you are speaking of? What does that have to do with relying solely on God’s word?

If some of what Paul writes is hard to understand and there were people in the Apostles day (and we probably both believe now also) those who “wrest” it and other Scripture “unto their own destruction.”, why fault Little Soldier for looking to the Church?

The interpretation of that scripture is that “untaught and the unstable distort” – false teachers.

“1My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.” (biblegateway.com/passage/…+3&version=KJV) (Accessed 2/ 13/ 10)

Paul is warning those who teach to be careful because they will come under a higher standard, assuming greater authority and thus, greater condemnation. What does this have to do with not relying solely on God’s word?

The issue about the sinlessness of Mary has already, IMO, been addressed by the Church (Mathew 18:17.) If you think that I am stretching to equate the CC with the Church Jesus was speaking about in this passage, who is the better candidate in your opinion?

Matthew 18:17
“And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.”

What has this passage to do with Mary being sinless?

 

[Indyann]

Interesting you state that a man removed the books, but man is who you are relying on to help you understand the Bible.
And the truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit. He leads us in all truth. I don’t rely on man. I rely on God.

You didn’t address the question. If you agree that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth in the Bible, why would you not want to know ALL of the truth?

All Christians accepted ALL of the Bible until man decided to delete part of the Word of God.

Don’t you want to know ALL of the truth, not just a portion?

The only Man, I am relying on is Jesus Christ, who founded the Catholic Church. And we all know that the Church is the “pillar of truth”.

It is you who is following man.

 

[JustaServant]

Nowhere in Catholic teaching is there anything that directs Catholics to worship Mary. Catholics do not ‘worship’ Mary, we do however venerate her.Venerate means To regard with respect, reverence, and heartfelt deference.One of the 10 Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.” One honors their father and mother and respects them. Catholics do so for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.Worship means the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object, which we do not accord to our parents.We pray “to” Mary in the old sense of the word. In Elizabethan English they would say "I pray thee…… It is a pleading to a person of dignity.
The Hail Mary says “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus! Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” We are first “praying the scriptures”, and second, we are asking Mary to pray for us to the Lord even as I might ask a living Christian to do. For “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
Family members and friends pray with and for one another, because we are the family of God.

 

[mdifrancesco]

You didn’t address the question. If you agree that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth in the Bible, why would you not want to know ALL of the truth?

All Christians accepted ALL of the Bible until man decided to delete part of the Word of God.

Don’t you want to know ALL of the truth, not just a portion?

The only Man, I am relying on is Jesus Christ, who founded the Catholic Church. And we all know that the Church is the “pillar of truth”.

It is you who is following man.

And the catholic church has never changed it’s mind on anything?
No… you are relying on the church (MAN). I am relying solely on God. And by the way, Jesus didn’t found a “catholic” church. he founded HIS church (His body). YOU claim that to be the catholic church. I don’t.

 

[mdifrancesco]

Nowhere in Catholic teaching is there anything that directs Catholics to worship Mary. Catholics do not ‘worship’ Mary, we do however venerate her.Venerate means To regard with respect, reverence, and heartfelt deference.One of the 10 Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.” One honors their father and mother and respects them. Catholics do so for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.Worship means the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object, which we do not accord to our parents.We pray “to” Mary in the old sense of the word. In Elizabethan English they would say "I pray thee…… It is a pleading to a person of dignity.
The Hail Mary says “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus! Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” We are first “praying the scriptures”, and second, we are asking Mary to pray for us to the Lord even as I might ask a living Christian to do. For “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
Family members and friends pray with and for one another, because we are the family of God.

We will never get anywhere with this…
What I am saying is you are asking someone who is dead to pray for you. This VERY different than having someone who is alive praying WITH you for something. We are told to stand in agreement with one another. I am stating that someone who has died is in no position to help you get your prayers answered. The Bible does not teach that people who have passed on are now inteceding for us in heaven.

 

[JustaServant]

We will never get anywhere with this…
What I am saying is you are asking someone who is dead to pray for you. This VERY different than having someone who is alive praying WITH you for something. We are told to stand in agreement with one another. I am stating that someone who has died is in no position to help you get your prayers answered. The Bible does not teach that people who have passed on are now inteceding for us in heaven.

Is God the God of the dead or the living? Are those in Heaven living or dead?
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.

 

[LionHeart777]

where does the Bible say that we are to rely solely on the Bible?

I don’t know how to answer that… That is like buying something that comes with an instruction manual. Is not the manual instruction enough? If the manufacturer though there should be more, more would have been written…

Why do you assume that it functions as an instruction manual especially in light of the fact that Peter tells us that some of what Paul writes is hard to understand?

*To Little Soldiers credit, 2 Peter tells us, in the context of warning against false teachers, :

"15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2* Peter+3&version=KJV) (accessed 2/ 13/ 09)

Who is the false teacher you are speaking of? What does that have to do with relying solely on God’s word?

How do we know it’s not you if all you can supply is Scripture?

If some of what Paul writes is hard to understand and there were people in the Apostles day (and we probably both believe now also) those who “wrest” it and other Scripture “unto their own destruction.”, why fault Little Soldier for looking to the Church?

The interpretation of that scripture is that “untaught and the unstable distort” – false teachers.

Agreed. It also means that some things are hard to understand so why should Little Soldier rely solely on the Bible as you say (in actuality: solely on Little Soldiers interpretation of the Bible)

“1My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.” (biblegateway.com/passage/…+3&version=KJV) (Accessed 2/ 13/ 10)

Paul is warning those who teach to be careful because they will come under a higher standard, assuming greater authority and thus, greater condemnation. What does this have to do with not relying solely on God’s word?

Agreed. I think that one of the implications also of what James is saying is that some will just listen to the teachers in the Church as Little Soldier said he will. Therefore, why fault him?

The issue about the sinlessness of Mary has already, IMO, been addressed by the Church (Mathew 18:17.) If you think that I am stretching to equate the CC with the Church Jesus was speaking about in this passage, who is the better candidate in your opinion?

Matthew 18:17
“And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.”

What has this passage to do with Mary being sinless?

My point is that the Church has already spoken on this matter

Note: My words are in black (older post) and red (my replies to the blue.)

This is confusing

 

[JustaServant]

Part of understanding the Communion of Saints, is that we ask for those living and dead to intercede or carry our prayers to Jesus.
Mary is a part of this Communion of Saints.
She is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.”

The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture. The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan. This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation,
Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.
Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.”
Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”). In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God.
The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down, Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.”
The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us.
By calling Mary co-redemptrix, Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

 

[LionHeart777]

And the catholic church has never changed it’s mind on anything?
No… you are relying on the church (MAN). I am relying solely on God. And by the way, Jesus didn’t found a “catholic” church. he founded HIS church (His body). YOU claim that to be the catholic church. I don’t.

(emphasis mine.)

Didn’t Jesus tell us to rely on the Church?

(rely on the Church = rely on God if God established the Church and told us to listen to it. re: Mathew 18.)

 

[Indyann]

And the catholic church has never changed it’s mind on anything?
No… you are relying on the church (MAN). I am relying solely on God. And by the way, Jesus didn’t found a “catholic” church. he founded HIS church (His body). YOU claim that to be the catholic church. I don’t.

Why won’t you answer the question?

Don’t you want to know all of what the inspired writers wrote, until man deleted part of it?

Who started your church? I am guessing it was some man.

 

[regression]

I don’t know how to answer that… That is like buying something that comes with an instruction manual. Is not the manual instruction enough? If the manufacturer though there should be more, more would have been written…

Why do you believe the bible is an instruction manual? It is a collection of different types of books (stories, laws, prophecies, etc) written over a great period of time from different people to different people / cultures, etc. If it were an instruction manual, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. There would be chapters for say, baptism, who one can pray for, etc…

You keep saying you rely on the Holy Spirit, not a man. But, it was a man that told you what books are in the bible and you then rely on the Holy Spirit to interpret those. And what about people who lived between when Jesus died and 397, when the Catholic Church established the cannon? They had no “instruction manual”. Or, if you don’t believe the Catholic Church established the “correct” cannon, what about people who lived between when Jesus died and around 1500 AD. They had the wrong “instruction manual”.

 

[mdifrancesco]

Is God the God of the dead or the living? Are those in Heaven living or dead?
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.

You are stretching rev. 5:8 out of context and I have already addressed that. There is no reference in the Bible that the dead are to pray for us.

 

[mdifrancesco]

Actually, yes, the angels are saints because they are holy. It is an English misunderstanding that there is a distinction between “Saint” & “Holy”. In Spanish, one has “Sancta Maria” – Saint Mary (Mother of God), but, in Armenian, the Holy! Holy! Holy in the Divine Liturgy is “Soorp! Soorp! Soorp!” The saints in Armenian are also preceeded by “Soorp”. Soorp Mesrob and Soorp Krikori and such…

There is nobody answering our prayers but God, but, that doesn’t exclude that the saints in Heaven don’t interceed for us, hear our prayers, or at the very least, deliver our prayers to God.

That is your opinion. And it may be your church doctrine. But it is NOT in the word of God.

 

[mdifrancesco]

LionHeart777:
Note: My words are in black (older post) and red (my replies to the blue.)

This is confusing

This will be my last response to this post:

You call me the false teacher because I speak the word of God.
If by my responding with the word of God, you call me a false teacher, then you are calling Jesus also a false teacher as I am repeating His words.
I have a personal relationship with Jesus and i know His voice. He reveals to me what I need to know about His word.
If you need to go back to your church for verification, confirmation (and whatever else) be my guest. The church has made errors in the past . That cannot be refuted. God however has NEVER made a mistake. He has NEVER led His people astray. So why would you call me a false teacher for following the one who never fails?

 

[Indyann]

This will be my last response to this post:

You call me the false teacher because I speak the word of God.
If by my responding with the word of God, you call me a false teacher, then you are calling Jesus also a false teacher as I am repeating His words.
I have a personal relationship with Jesus and i know His voice. He reveals to me what I need to know about His word.
If you need to go back to your church for verification, confirmation (and whatever else) be my guest. The church has made errors in the past . That cannot be refuted. God however has NEVER made a mistake. He has NEVER led His people astray. So why would you call me a false teacher for following the one who never fails?

It is your last post because you do not have the answers to our questions. I, and I am sure all of the Catholics who have read this thread will pray that the Holy Spirit will someday open your mind and your heart to accept all of Christ’s gospel.

“Unless you eat of my body and drink of my blood, you have no life in you.” God bless and enlighten you.

 

[adstrinity]

That is your opinion. And it may be your church doctrine. But it is NOT in the word of God.

This is not my opining. It’s true, what I said about Saint/Holy. It is also true, one can see from the Bible, that the saints in Heaven carry our prayers to God, even if they may not read or see them. They serve God.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

That is your opinion. And it may be your church doctrine. But it is NOT in the word of God.

Do you dare speak for the Holy Spirit? You may be unable to see it, but that does not mean it is not there. You should be more circumspect when proclaiming what is and what is not in Scripture! Take a hint from the Ethiopian nobleman. Consider that you are rearing up your own interpretation in defiance of the Apostles and their successors. Is that how the Christian Churches behaved to St. Paul, St. Peter and the rest? Or do you subscribe to the invisible, nondemonstrable general apostasy that is pretended to have occurred, we know not when, and we know not how? We do not offer up to YOU our own PRIVATE JUDGMENT interpretations of the Scripture, as you do us, but rather the Apostolic Church’s interpretation of the past 2000 years. You are not dealing with fellow lovers of their own private judgment, but rather Christians that have held fast to the Apostolic Doctrines delivered to us from St. Paul, and the Apostles.

 

[LittleSoldier]

i acknowledge what she did. She was blessed of god. She was blessed above all women. She was an obedient servant.
That’s it. Don’t turn “honor” into “homage”.

“Honor” and “homage” are synonyms. They mean the same thing. So what is the problem here??

“She was blessed above all women.” You are absolutely correct. She was, and is. But for her to be born with original sin would mean that Eve had been blessed more than her. That makes no sense to me.

On the off chance that you really meant that your last post was in response to that particular post and not this entire thread, or in the hopes that you might come back, I would like to say something.

I provided the following passage in a previous post:

“But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.” [John 21:25, Douay-Rheims Bible]

Aren’t you at all interested in what those things are? Why do you restrict yourself to one book, (which we all believe is the word of God), when there are so many other things Jesus did??

Do you really think that God’s word fell down out of the sky onto earth and it was a book?? Would God restrict Himself to one book that is so misunderstood that people have been fighting over its interpretation for hundreds of years?? Would God put himself in a book with a bow on top and that’s it - nothing more?? What did people do before the Bible was penned??

You do speak the word of God when you quote Scripture, but then you add your own personal interpretations and expect us to believe you!! Why should I believe you?? Why don’t you believe me, or rather the Church??

You accuse us of following man, but what are you?? Every single time you interpret Scripture you are forming your own traditions.

Why can’t you open your eyes to see something that you just couldn’t see before?? Why is it wrong to love Jesus’ mother so much that we can actually speak to her and know that she hears us??

I am truly sorry and saddened. I guess you just don’t get it. I hope someday you will understand and come home.

Ave Maria!! Gratia plena, Dominus tecum,
benedicta tu in mulieribus,
et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus.
Sancta Maria!! Mater Dei!!
ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc,
et in hora mortis nostrae.

Amen!!!

 

[LionHeart777]

This will be my last response to this post:

You call me the false teacher because I speak the word of God.
If by my responding with the word of God, you call me a false teacher, then you are calling Jesus also a false teacher as I am repeating His words.
I have a personal relationship with Jesus and i know His voice. He reveals to me what I need to know about His word.
If you need to go back to your church for verification, confirmation (and whatever else) be my guest. The church has made errors in the past . That cannot be refuted. God however has NEVER made a mistake. He has NEVER led His people astray. So why would you call me a false teacher for following the one who never fails?

mdifrancesco,

forgive if I was unkind. Allow us to speak frankly and maybe I can show you what I was thinking. I certainly don’t think that all you teach is false, so that was unkind. Think about it this way though:

1. I am supporting the claims of the Catholic Church and what it teaches including Mary’s sinlessness and the Communion of the Saints. Personally, I’m not 100% confortable with the prayers in the OP: I am a convert from Evangelical Theology. Perhaps, as some say, they are meant to be hyperbole. Anyway…
2. You are denying the Claims of the Catholic Church

(actually, when I wrote what I did in red, I may have been thinking about the Eucharist, assuming you deny the Real Presence- I’m not 100% sure what I was thinking, only that we disagree.)

Given that, if we both disagree we both cannot be right and therefore, at least in some sense, one of us must be a false teacher (unless we’re both wrong but I really don’t think so.)

So that being said, you probably regard me, in that sense, a “false teacher”, no?

I do believe that Protestants are seperated brethren of the Church so I may have been too harsh. I apologize.

Given that you know where I am coming from a little better, perhaps you can see my point.

If “false teachers” come and bolster their arguments with Scripture and Scripture alone (I think they certainly may and have tried a non Sola Scriptura approach too), how would I be able to recognize the people that Peter is speaking about?

Granted, I think your arguments are a lot better than say the JW’s or the Mormon’s or gnostics for example, that’s why I used to believe a lot of what you probably do. If you are a baptized Christian, than I see you as just that. But like I said, there is a sense in which we are both either calling or implying that the other is a false teacher- to some degree. Would you agree?

peace-

ng

 

[LionHeart777]

This will be my last response to this post:

You call me the false teacher because I speak the word of God.
If by my responding with the word of God, you call me a false teacher, then you are calling Jesus also a false teacher as I am repeating His words.
I have a personal relationship with Jesus and i know His voice. He reveals to me what I need to know about His word.
If you need to go back to your church for verification, confirmation (and whatever else) be my guest. The church has made errors in the past . That cannot be refuted. God however has NEVER made a mistake. He has NEVER led His people astray. So why would you call me a false teacher for following the one who never fails?

Also, no offence. But what you are saying here, and saying very sincerely I think, a Montanist in the 3rd century could have been saying the same things and if I had believed them that would not have been good.

I think I was just trying to call a spade a spade, from my Catholic view point. I suspect that you feel the same way about me?

I don’t think you at the level of the Gnostics, or Montanists. After all, the Church calls Protestants seperated brethren. You may even see Catholics as fellow Christians provided that you aren’t anti-Catholic: don’t worry I won’t make ask you to answer that here

so, pals?

ng