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ajpirc
Guest
Are we Catholics allowed to pray to those souls that haven’t been canonized or beatified?
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Little_One0307
Guest
Hi,
I don’t see why not. I have asked those that have gone on before me to Heaven to pray for me. Everyone in heaven is a saint. Only saints are in heaven. You do not have to be a saint to be canonized by the Church. I was already praying to Blessed John Paul II before he was even listed as Venerable.
And I believe that those in heaven who have not been canonized already by the Church are praying for us and desire that we too make heaven by God’s grace.
God bless.
I don’t see why not. I have asked those that have gone on before me to Heaven to pray for me. Everyone in heaven is a saint. Only saints are in heaven. You do not have to be a saint to be canonized by the Church. I was already praying to Blessed John Paul II before he was even listed as Venerable.
And I believe that those in heaven who have not been canonized already by the Church are praying for us and desire that we too make heaven by God’s grace.
God bless.
N
NeedImprovement
Guest
It probably wouldn’t be approved of if we asked for the intercession publicly (of souls who haven’t been canonized or beatified), because it would be in conflict with the cult of the Saints.
But in the Communion of Saints, there are many (for lack of a better word) “unkown” saints.
In other words the official list of those Saints who the church has canonized is not even the slightest fraction of all those who enjoy the beatific vision. That isn’t presumption or an assumption -it can be inferred from the Book of Revelation 7:9-10; DRV] :
After this I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands: And they cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God, who sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.
Asking the intercession privately of a soul who hasn’t been canonized or beatified, would seem to be a very natural thing for a Catholic to do . In the Canonization and Beatification processes , valid proven miracles are needed before one can proceed with the process/ cause. This means that someone was definitely asking their intercession privately beforehand.
It can probably be said that if none of us ever privately invoked/ asked for the intercession of " those souls that haven’t been canonized or beatified", the Church wouldn’t have any officially canonized or beatified souls … except,
… maybe for St. Dismas ( the good thief ) whom our Blessed Lord Himself canonized from the Cross: “This day, you will be with me in Paradise.” .
It is recorded in the biography of St. André Bessette , CSC, founder of St. Joseph’s Oratory here in Montreal, that he once confided " After the death of my mother, I didn’t pray for her for very long … but I often prayed with her."
But in the Communion of Saints, there are many (for lack of a better word) “unkown” saints.
In other words the official list of those Saints who the church has canonized is not even the slightest fraction of all those who enjoy the beatific vision. That isn’t presumption or an assumption -it can be inferred from the Book of Revelation 7:9-10; DRV] :
After this I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands: And they cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God, who sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.
Asking the intercession privately of a soul who hasn’t been canonized or beatified, would seem to be a very natural thing for a Catholic to do . In the Canonization and Beatification processes , valid proven miracles are needed before one can proceed with the process/ cause. This means that someone was definitely asking their intercession privately beforehand.
It can probably be said that if none of us ever privately invoked/ asked for the intercession of " those souls that haven’t been canonized or beatified", the Church wouldn’t have any officially canonized or beatified souls … except,
… maybe for St. Dismas ( the good thief ) whom our Blessed Lord Himself canonized from the Cross: “This day, you will be with me in Paradise.” .It is recorded in the biography of St. André Bessette , CSC, founder of St. Joseph’s Oratory here in Montreal, that he once confided " After the death of my mother, I didn’t pray for her for very long … but I often prayed with her."
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Little_One0307
Guest
NeedImprovement,
Hi, I would have to respectfully disagree with this statement. The Liturgy asks for the prayers publicly of saints who are not canonized. I wish to quote some for you.
From my Missal on the summarization of All Saints Day Mass, November 1
From the prayers of All Saints Day Mass, November 1
Collect
Prayer over the Gifts
All the Eucharistic prayers ask for ALL the saints intercession or ask to be united with them.
The Litany of Saints ask for all saints to pray, even though it does not list everyone by name.
These are but a few examples where their intercession is asked publicly.
God bless.
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NeedImprovement
Guest
Hi Little One 0307.
Thanks for helping me try to live up to my username, but I’m afraid we have to take the respectful ammunition out of your disagreement, because I don’t think there really is any disagreement between us.
I’ll ask you to have another, more scrutinous look at ajpirc’s original question - there’s something there that you missed, but it’s kind of easy to miss because it’s subtle.
ajpirc asked
"ajpirc:
NeedImprovement:
Here are a couple of definitions from Fr. John Hardon, S.J.'s Modern Catholic Dictionary :
CANONIZATION
Declaration by the Pope that a deceased person is raised to the full honors of the altar, i.e., a saint after previously having been beatified. Two miracles credited to the beatus (feminine: beata) are usually required before canonization to attest the heroic virtue of the saint. Beatification allows veneration of the blessed, canonization requires it. The canonization is celebrated at St. Peter’s and is usually followed by a solemn triduum in another church in the city or elsewhere within a limited time. (Etym. Latin canonizare, to canonize; from canon, catalogue of saints.)
**SAINTS. **
A name given in the New Testament to Christians generally (Colossians 1:2) but early restricted to persons who were eminent for holiness. In the strict sense saints are those who distinguish themselves by heroic virtue during life and whom the Church honors as saints either by her ordinary universal teaching authority or by a solemn definition called canonization. The Church’s official recognition of sanctity implies that the persons are now in heavenly glory, that they may be publicly invoked everywhere, and that their virtues during life or martyr’s death are a witness and example to the Christian faithful. (Etym. Latin sanctus, holy, sacred.)
Does that help to clarify things a little ? There are broader definitions which exist, but to illustrate the part you seem to have skipped over :
A “Saint”, - is someone who is " *now in heavenly glory, that they may be publicly invoked everywhere *" ; a “soul” , particularly as I understood it within the context of the OP’s question , is referring to someone who is in this case
God bless
Thanks for helping me try to live up to my username, but I’m afraid we have to take the respectful ammunition out of your disagreement, because I don’t think there really is any disagreement between us.
I’ll ask you to have another, more scrutinous look at ajpirc’s original question - there’s something there that you missed, but it’s kind of easy to miss because it’s subtle.
ajpirc asked
"ajpirc:
and I posted in reply
Your commentary/refutation went like this :
As far as I can tell, you appear to be overlooking an important subtlety : ajrpirc’s question and the part of my reply you quoted, both address “souls” who haven’t been canonized or beatified - not "Saints" who haven’t been canonized or beatified.
Here are a couple of definitions from Fr. John Hardon, S.J.'s Modern Catholic Dictionary :
CANONIZATION
Declaration by the Pope that a deceased person is raised to the full honors of the altar, i.e., a saint after previously having been beatified. Two miracles credited to the beatus (feminine: beata) are usually required before canonization to attest the heroic virtue of the saint. Beatification allows veneration of the blessed, canonization requires it. The canonization is celebrated at St. Peter’s and is usually followed by a solemn triduum in another church in the city or elsewhere within a limited time. (Etym. Latin canonizare, to canonize; from canon, catalogue of saints.)
**SAINTS. **
A name given in the New Testament to Christians generally (Colossians 1:2) but early restricted to persons who were eminent for holiness. In the strict sense saints are those who distinguish themselves by heroic virtue during life and whom the Church honors as saints either by her ordinary universal teaching authority or by a solemn definition called canonization. The Church’s official recognition of sanctity implies that the persons are now in heavenly glory, that they may be publicly invoked everywhere, and that their virtues during life or martyr’s death are a witness and example to the Christian faithful. (Etym. Latin sanctus, holy, sacred.)
Does that help to clarify things a little ? There are broader definitions which exist, but to illustrate the part you seem to have skipped over :
A “Saint”, - is someone who is " *now in heavenly glory, that they may be publicly invoked everywhere *" ; a “soul” , particularly as I understood it within the context of the OP’s question , is referring to someone who is in this case
- not unknown to the one asking their intercession
- someone who’s final destination is not yet definitively known to us here on earth
God bless
V
VivaCristoRey27
Guest
Yes, privately. But you should also not forget to pray for them, in case they are still in Purgatory. If they are already in Heaven (or, God forbid, Hell), your prayers will go to help other souls in Purgatory.
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Little_One0307
Guest
Hi NeedImprovement,
Wow. I totally though I read saint in the OP’s orignal post. I must be really, really tired. I sit corrected here in the computer chair. My extreme apologies. I don’t know what I was thinking, so I will withdraw my comment, it’s too much a shame that I cannot delete that post and have to leave an example of folly in the forums, oh well it’s good for humility of which I am sorely in need of.
Yeah I missed it. Thanks for calling my attention to this. However, I thought he was referring to saints as I saw the other posters referring to saints and not souls. I guess it’s up to the OP to post what he is meaning.
Either way, we are both correct. It’s a win-win situation. Sry about the confusion. Thanks for being compassionate about it.
God bless.
Wow. I totally though I read saint in the OP’s orignal post. I must be really, really tired. I sit corrected here in the computer chair. My extreme apologies. I don’t know what I was thinking, so I will withdraw my comment, it’s too much a shame that I cannot delete that post and have to leave an example of folly in the forums, oh well it’s good for humility of which I am sorely in need of.
Yeah I missed it. Thanks for calling my attention to this. However, I thought he was referring to saints as I saw the other posters referring to saints and not souls. I guess it’s up to the OP to post what he is meaning.
Either way, we are both correct. It’s a win-win situation. Sry about the confusion. Thanks for being compassionate about it.
God bless.
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NeedImprovement
Guest
Don’t let it trouble you ( if you knew how many times I’ve done that sort of thing…
).I don’t think it’s folly at all. Consider the effects a moment :
ajpirc’s original question and our posts have brought some attention to those unknown saints in Heaven.
I actually got to enhance my own understanding of canonization by re-reading Father Hardon’s definition … this part of it - “Beatification allows veneration of the blessed, canonization requires it” , was like a little re-education for me.
We discovered , ultimately that we’re not in disagreement.
You probably wouldn’t have posted those reflections & prayers for All Saints Day from your Missal either - which I found to be an edifying to read.
I’m going to silently ask for the intercession of the unknown Saints in Heaven during the Offertory at Mass in a couple of hours - which I wouldn’t have done if you hadn’t made that post.
… lots of positives coming out of it …
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ajpirc
Guest
This was what I meant. Sorry I didn’t reply last night: I got tired.
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Stylites
Guest
Certainly we may pray to any soul not declared a saint, or even one who will will never be declared a saint or beatified. Perhaps loved ones have passed away, and you may still talk with them in private.
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Little_One0307
Guest
NeedImprovement,Don’t let it trouble you ( if you knew how many times I’ve done that sort of thing…
I don’t think it’s folly at all. Consider the effects a moment :
ajpirc’s original question and our posts have brought some attention to those unknown saints in Heaven.
I actually got to enhance my own understanding of canonization by re-reading Father Hardon’s definition … this part of it - “Beatification allows veneration of the blessed, canonization requires it” , was like a little re-education for me.
We discovered , ultimately that we’re not in disagreement.
You probably wouldn’t have posted those reflections & prayers for All Saints Day from your Missal either - which I found to be an edifying to read.
I’m going to silently ask for the intercession of the unknown Saints in Heaven during the Offertory at Mass in a couple of hours - which I wouldn’t have done if you hadn’t made that post.
… lots of positives coming out of it …
Well now that you actually consider it yes, there are quite a bit of positives coming out of it. I have learned more about saints. I have learned more about the faith. And I am going to actually call upont the Communion of Saints more frequently as well.
God brings yet more good out of things.
God bless you for being so charitable and making a Little One feel less embarassed.
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Marie5890
Guest
I often times have asked both (now Blessed) John Paul II and Abp Fulton Sheen for their intersessory prayers
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JackQ
Guest
If you couldn’t how would they ever be canonized? How would it ever be shown that their intercession had miraculous results?
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
In the past, people not only prayed to holy ones not canonized, but they actually titled them “Saint” or “Blessed” and the like.
Over time, the veneration of such spread popularly and there are many cases where Rome approved of the veneration by means of “equipollent” beatification.
The English Martyrs beginning with King Henry VIII had their images painted on the walls of the English College at Rome. Seminarians and many others would indeed venerate them their and an important consideration that went into their eventual beatification (in 1886, for example) was the question of the existence of a cult of veneration in their honour from “time immemorial.” The veneration paid to them by way of those paintings in the College passed that test with flying colours!
We also have the right to invoke relatives and friends who have died and even keep their pictures at home and the like. This was a fairly widespread practice in the Christian East where even icons were painted of one’s dead relatives . . .
The cult of Jerom Savonarola, hanged and burned in the 15th century, was widespread throughout the Dominican Order and also at Florence (his Cause has been reintroduced again at Rome by the Archbishop of Florence). He was also an opponent of Pope Alexander VI (the main reason why the Jesuits have historically been against his
canonization).
Someone like Ven. Fr. Nelson Baker at Lackawanna, NY has long been venerated privately, especially by the many people and their descendants whom he personally assisted in his great charity while that holy man of God was alive.
As JackQ said above, this is a powerful means to assist the canonization process . . .
Alex
Over time, the veneration of such spread popularly and there are many cases where Rome approved of the veneration by means of “equipollent” beatification.
The English Martyrs beginning with King Henry VIII had their images painted on the walls of the English College at Rome. Seminarians and many others would indeed venerate them their and an important consideration that went into their eventual beatification (in 1886, for example) was the question of the existence of a cult of veneration in their honour from “time immemorial.” The veneration paid to them by way of those paintings in the College passed that test with flying colours!
We also have the right to invoke relatives and friends who have died and even keep their pictures at home and the like. This was a fairly widespread practice in the Christian East where even icons were painted of one’s dead relatives . . .
The cult of Jerom Savonarola, hanged and burned in the 15th century, was widespread throughout the Dominican Order and also at Florence (his Cause has been reintroduced again at Rome by the Archbishop of Florence). He was also an opponent of Pope Alexander VI (the main reason why the Jesuits have historically been against his
canonization).
Someone like Ven. Fr. Nelson Baker at Lackawanna, NY has long been venerated privately, especially by the many people and their descendants whom he personally assisted in his great charity while that holy man of God was alive.
As JackQ said above, this is a powerful means to assist the canonization process . . .
Alex
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