Prayers to saints and OT people in heaven

[Gareth]

My protestant friend says that praying to anyone but God is wrong.

I said that when we pray to the saints we are asking the saints to pray for us not worshipping them. He conceeded this.

He then said that because there were no examples of people praying to the saints in the O.T that if it was a true thing it would have been mentioned.

He specifically mentioned Old Testament people who went to heaven, like Enoch, Elijah and I think Seth. He also nentioned the transfiguration as showing there were saints in heaven before Jesus’ death and resurrection.

I wasnt sure how to respond. I mentioned that since I reject Solo Scriptura and follow the Church this wasnt a big problem for me anyway. I added that no Catholic is required to pray to the saints.

Can anyone clarify: why it isnt prayers to saints mentioned in the OT?

Were people in heaven before Jesus death?

Thanks
Gareth

 

[JGD]

Prayer is conversation with those in heaven, especially with God. You might tell your friend that Jesus “conversed” with OT dead - specifically Moses and Elijah.

Luke 9: 28-36 …As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departurewhich he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. …

We are to imitate Jesus.

 

[Stephen_says]

I think this is tricky, I’m not an expert, but the Israelite people didn’t have an understanding of people going to Heaven after they die. The dead rested in Sheol, the place of the dead. Therefore, it wouldn’t make sense for them to pray to the dead to intercede for us.

After the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, Heaven was open to us, and the righteous dead are in the presence of God, so they can now intercede for us.

BUT: also I’d like to point out the Gospel of Matthew 26:

And about three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “ Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Some of the bystanders who heard it said, “This one is calling for Elijah.”

Sounds like some of the bystanders thought Jesus was praying to Elijah…

 

[JGD]

Heaven was “closed” before Our Lord redeemed mankind.

CCC1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has “opened” heaven to us.

Altho all are judged immediately after death, prior to Jesus’ death and resurrection the good would not have entered into the fullness of the beatific vision/heaven.
Our Lord’s parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows that the OT dead were awake/conscious and not “asleep” and that the good were “in the bosom of Abraham”, a good place - but not “in God” yet.

As to why there wasn’t prayer to the saints in the OT, God has His own timing. I can think of a couple of possibilities:

1. Danger of using it in the occult manner prevalent in the pagan nations which surrounded them. King Saul did sin in this manner when he went to a medium in order to contact an OT “saint” - Samuel.
   Perhaps God decided it was best to break them from sinful occult ways of communing with the dead. He strictly forbade them to consult with mediums and wizards. He would wait until after the redemption, when they were strengthened by saving grace, and the saints had entered the fullness of His presence.
2. the OT “saints” were not yet in the fullness of God’s presence - in heaven. They needed to have the gospel preached to them (1 Peter 3:19 and 1 Peter 4:6. It could well be that they needed to accept and believe Jesus - make an act of faith - before they could enter heaven. Perhaps God preferred them in the fullness of His presence before those on earth could pray to them.

Just some thoughts. Probably get to heaven and we’ll find out it was reasons totally different, reasons we’re not even capable of grasping while still here on earth.

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

Go to youtube and watch ascension presents with father mike. look for the video about Saints. Perhaps others can explain better than I can but I will try. First of all the Saints are alive in Christ. They are not dead. When you ask someone close to you to pray for you is that wrong? Of course not! Father Mike could explain it better than I could. Go to youtube and find him.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Can anyone clarify: why it isnt prayers to saints mentioned in the OT?

Depends on which Old Testament canon you accept, Catholic or Protestant. Remember the Protestant Reformers removed five books and parts of others from the long-accepted Catholic Old Testament canon, precisely because those books and passages supported such Catholic things as Purgatory and praying for the dead and praying to the saints, the saints praying for the living, and the attributing of miracles to the intercession of the saints.

Concerning praying to the saints, in the Catholic Old Testament the angels and the spirits and souls of the just are prayerfully addressed in the Song of the Three Young Men in Daniel:

Angels of the Lord, bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever. (Daniel 3:58 NABRE)

Spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever. (Daniel 3:86 NABRE)

Long-dead Solomon is prayerfully addressed in Sirach 47:14-20 NABRE; long-assumed-into-heaven Elijah in Sirach 48:4-11 NABRE.

Even in the Protestant Old Testament, the angels in heaven are prayerfully addressed by the Psalmist:

Bless the Lord, all you his angels, mighty in strength, acting at his behest, obedient to his command. (Psalm 103:20)

Praise him, all you his angels; give praise, all you his hosts. (Psalm 148:2)

And, didn’t Jesus liken the saints in heaven to angels? See Luke 20:34-36. And, didn’t the author of Hebrews closely associate the saints in heaven with the angels? See Hebrews 12:22-23.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Prayer is conversation with those in heaven, especially with God. You might tell your friend that Jesus “conversed” with OT dead - specifically Moses and Elijah.

I agree with this. Also, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man ‘asks’ or ‘prays to’ Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers. How much more OT than Abraham himself?

 

[Gareth]

Thanks very much all.

From reading your responses im going to say:

That the situation now is different than before the ressurection. No normal protestant Christian would argue against this.

To me its related to the ‘communion of saints’ portion of the creed. Clearly this wasnt possible before the resurection.

The individuals Elijah, Moses etc were really an exception rather than the rule in those times and most people were in Sheol.

I have argued with him before that Luther had no authority to remove those books from the bible and did so because they were inconvenient for him. He agreed, but said he thought the remaining 66 books contained more than enough to be saved and I agreed with this.

But it means they miss out on the richness if our faith and that is why I converted. I needed the extra help and still still do.

Thanks again
Gareth

 

[annad347]

I added that no Catholic is required to pray to the saints.

Thank God, this is true.

I don’t think you need to say anything negative about his church in order to tell him what is positive about your church. Tell him everything you want to say about praying to saints and the authority of the Catholic church, but IMO, keep Luther out of it. The conversation can just turn into a battle of who’s right, who’s wrong battle without anyone learning anything, and I don’t think that’s what you want to happen, you want your friend to really listen to you… right?

 

[Gareth]

I agree Annad thank you.

 

[BornInMarch]

It’s more like asking the saints to pray to God on your behalf, while at the same time praying to God yourself. You could point out that Protestants tend to have prayer groups and prayer circles, in which the same logic is applied.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Similarly, in the New Testament, St Peter prayerfully addressed a saint in heaven when he addressed dead Tabitha, saying, “Tabitha, rise.” (Acts 9:40)

 

[Cathoholic]

Gareth . . .

My protestant friend says that praying to anyone but God is wrong.

Your friend is wrong.

I said that when we pray to the saints we are asking the saints to pray for us not worshipping them. He conceeded this.

Good work!

He then said that because there were no examples of people praying to the saints in the O.T that if it was a true thing it would have been mentioned.

Here’s an example . . .

From a prior post of mine:

Saints means “Holy ones”.

Do you think you can have GOOD Angel’s pray for you?

If you do, you are in good company.

In Genesis we see Jacob (Israel) “praying” to an angel, eventually asking for a blessing (“bless me”).

God bless.

Cathoholic

.

GENESIS 32:24, 26-28, 29b 24 And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. . . . 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day is breaking.” But Jacob said,“ I will not let you go, unless you bless me.” 27 And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 Then he said, “ Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel , for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29b . . . And there he blessed him .

GENESIS 32:29 (King James Version) And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee , thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

.

Gareth . . .

He specifically mentioned Old Testament people who went to heaven, like Enoch, Elijah and I think Seth.

The Risen Jesus opened the gates of Heaven. Nobody else.

For example, when Elijah goes off to “Heaven”, the same Hebrew word for Heaven means “the sky”.

Elijah was taken off to “the sky”.

What happened from there we do not know.

But we know what DIDN’T happen. (The Roman Catechism explicitly says no son of Adam entered Heaven in that sense).

We know Jesus opened the gates of Heaven, NOT Elijah or anyone else.

Good work Gareth!

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Gareth]

Thanks Cathoholic

For others who might be reading:

The catechism references to Jesus opening the gates are 637 and 1167.

1167 contains a quote which references Adam and all the exiles and mentions the human race.

Considering this I agree that Jesus opened the gates of Heaven. But am confused about how the transfiguration fits into this.

That said I dont need to know everything

Im starting to think the communion of saints is related to the atonment.

Learning.

 

[Cathoholic]

Also of interest . . . .

ROMAN CATECHISM . . . Wherefore before His death and Resurrection heaven was closed against every child of Adam. The souls of the just, on their departure from this life, were either borne to the bosom of Abraham; or, . . . were purified in the fire of purgatory.

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ST. THOMAS AQUINAS Reply to Objection 2: Elias was taken up into the atmospheric heaven, but not in to the empyrean heaven . . .

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ST. THOMAS AQUINAS Christ by His Passion merited for us the opening of the kingdom of heaven, and removed the obstacle; but by His ascension He, as it were, brought us to the possession of the heavenly kingdom. And consequently it is said that by ascending He “opened the way before them.”

 

[Dan_Defender]

Considering this I agree that Jesus opened the gates of Heaven. But am confused about how the transfiguration fits into this.

Moses and Elijah were not brought from Heaven. Also, remember the episode of king Saul invoking Samuel, who was not in Heaven either. Nowhere in the Bible does it say any OT soul was brought from Heaven.

 

[Gareth]

Yes. Makes sense, thankyou. Might get a copy of the Trent Catechism it looks like a good read.