Prayers to Saints being watered down?

[cyberwolf001]

I’ve noticed in the Pre-Vatican 2 prayers there are request for the Saints to not only pray for us, but to aid and protect us ect.

But modern prayers well I’ll use an example

The prayer to Fulten J. Sheen:

Eternal Father, You alone grant us every blessing in Heaven and on earth, through the redemptive mission of Your Divine Son, Jesus Christ, and by the working of the Holy Spirit. If it be according to Your Will, glorify Your servant, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, by granting the favor I now request through his prayerful intercession (mention your request). I make this prayer confidently through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.

---

I mean it is more a statement of a theological point than anything. It sounds like it was written to placate Protestants and tell them see we do not worship Saints as Gods…

I’m just, I am sick and tired of this watered down faith to appease the Protestants. >.<

sigh

Guess I gotta pray more for the Church to start acting Catholic and not trying to become Protestant with extra trimmings. Seriously some days I feel the only difference at times between ourselves and protestants are extra restrictions on sex in the Catholic Church…

 

[BarbaraTherese]

The saints cannot act of their own powers as independant agencies…they can indeed pray powerfully to The Lord for us to protect and aid us. Our Lady is especially a powerful intercessor. Sometimes prayers can give the impression that the saints can act totally independantly and aid and protect us which gives the totally wrong impression which means theologically incorrect hence should not be advocated for general use and prayers to the saints. Blessings - Barb
I guess it is a case of different strokes for different folks…I am drawn by the prayer for the canonization of Bishop Sheen you have quoted.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**But modern prayers well I’ll use an example

The prayer to Fulten J. Sheen:

Eternal Father, You alone grant us every blessing in Heaven and on earth, through the redemptive mission of Your Divine Son, Jesus Christ, and by the working of the Holy Spirit. If it be according to Your Will, glorify Your servant, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, by granting the favor I now request through his prayerful intercession (mention your request). I make this prayer confidently through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.**

Fulton Sheen has not yet been officially canonized, so this prayer is not a good example.

 

[AJV]

I think the language is pretty standard when it is for someone yet to be officially canonised or beatified. I have one, for example, from 1941 and its much the same.

O God, who in in thy love for the souls of innocent children didst choose Edmund Rice to establish a new family in thy church for their instruction, look favourably we beseech thee, on his virtues and good works, and if it be for thy glory and the sanctification of souls, mercifully hear our prayer that soon he may be raised to the altars of thy Church. Amen.

 

[John_Hiner]

The saints cannot act of their own powers as independant agencies…they can indeed pray powerfully to The Lord for us to protect and aid us. Our Lady is especially a powerful intercessor. Sometimes prayers can give the impression that the saints can act totally independantly and aid and protect us which gives the totally wrong impression which means theologically incorrect hence should not be advocated for general use and prayers to the saints. Blessings - Barb

I guess it is a case of different strokes for different folks…I am drawn by the prayer for the canonization of Bishop Sheen you have quoted.

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

The issue does not seem to about acting “of their own powers as independent agencies,” but of the difference between acting and not acting. No living Christian can act independent of Christ. However, one certainly acts. If someone asks for help, one is obliged not only to pray and ask God to help them, but to take up one’s role as a member of God’s body and act to help him with one’s own hands, as God’s agent. Why should we asserted that those who “reign" in heaven with Christ have lost this ability to act as His agents? What is the source of this assertion that Saints do not intercede by acting as well as by praying?

Angels act, they do not merely pray for us, or does this assertion extend to one’s guardian angel as well?

I tend to agree with the original poster that certain prayers to Saints seem to be cast for non-catholic sensibilities, rather than based on an understanding of the role of the Saints as vibrant and active members of the Church.

I speculate that this weakened view of the Saints is based on a misapprehension of them as dead. The Blessed Virgin is already glorified in her own body. Hence she is alive and human in all senses. Yet, the words of the Savior in the Gospel of St. John lead one to suspect that all Saints who die in physical communion with the Blessed Sacrament are also not dead in any true sense and so also have their full human capacities for choice and action. “[T]his is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.” (John (NAB) 6:50 (emphasis added).)

This notion that the Saints act in Christ seems to be implied in the word “reign” when used to describe them. “And night shall be no more: and they shall not need the light of the lamp, nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall enlighten them, and they shall reign for ever and ever.” (Revelation 22:5 (emphasis added); see also, 2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:6.)

Saintly action is also implied by the image of the faithful servant: “Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.” (Matthew (RSV) 25:21 (emphasis added).) Or as the New American Bible renders it: “‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’ (Matthew (NAB) 25:21 (emphasis added).)

What then is the basis of asserting that the Saints do not act directly?

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Not too sure I understand what you mean…of course Our Lady and the saints and angels can act in that they respond to us by praying to God for us…or intercede on our behalf which is of course “to act”. By “acting independantly” I meant that they cannot grant our intercessions independantly - that God is the one “who grants” and in this instance at the request or intercession of Our Lady and/or the saints and/or the angels. Doubtless, God who can do all things could assign to Our Lady and/or the saints and angels some special task…but it remains “God who assigns”. For example, God may assign to some saint some special task in response to my prayers to that saint to pray to be permitted to undertake that special task for me - to watch over me perhaps in times of temptation. I am reminded of St. Therese who wrote that her greatest work would be done from Heaven. Our Guardian Angels have been assigned the special task by God of watching over us.
All good be it miniscule or great has its origin and source in God.

I tend to agree with the original poster that certain prayers to Saints seem to be cast for non-catholic sensibilities, rather than based on an understanding of the role of the Saints as vibrant and active members of the Church.

…as I said its different strokes for different folks. What appeals to me may not be appealling to the next person. A matter of sensibilities.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

and in their private devotions, by observing the instructions to worship God and then to “pray, first to Saint Mary, and the holy apostles, and the holy martyrs, and all God’s saints, that they would** intercede** for them to God”. In this way they learned to look up to the saints in heaven with feelings of confidence and affection, to consider them as friends and protectors, and to implore their aid in the hour of distress, with the hope that God would grant to the patron what he might otherwise refuse to the supplicant

Blessings - Barb

 

[cyberwolf001]

Thanks John you worded it better than I ever could.

Barbara

Not too sure I understand what you mean…of course Our Lady and the saints and angels can act in that they respond to us by praying to God for us…or intercede on our behalf which is of course “to act”.

I believe the writings of the Saints constantly speak of pray first, then act. As does the Book of James.

I am reminded of St. Therese who wrote that her greatest work would be done from Heaven. Our Guardian Angels have been assigned the special task by God of watching over us.
All good be it miniscule or great has its origin and source in God.

Name one good thing that doesn’t?

An really if all Saints do is pray why all the patron Saint of such and such?

An for that matter what of the Book of Tobit? (Possible the best book on how the Communion of Saints work) Saint Raphael certainly did more than ‘just pray’.

As for the acting independently. Like John I await a statement on when a Catholic can act independently of God.

 

[John_Hiner]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

This part of the Catechism is interesting in this context:

1029 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him “they shall reign for ever and ever.”(603) . . . 603 Ap 22,5; Mt 25,21 (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 1029)

In caeli gloria, beati gaudenter voluntatem Dei implere pergunt relate ad alios homines et ad universam creationem. Iam illi cum Christo regnant; cum Eo « regnabunt in saecula saeculorum » (Ap 22,5) (cf. Mt 25,21 25,23). (Catechismus Cath. Eccl. 1029)​

I am still thinking this through.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[BarbaraTherese]

An really if all Saints do is pray why all the patron Saint of such and such?

I think we are probably saying the same thing differently, CW …I did post that God, being God, can allocate some task to His saints in Heaven. As to patron saints and their special patronage “Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, it shall be bound also in Heaven” The Church allocates the patronage and God affirms this by allocating that patronage to that saint, which simply means that that particular saint may be sought as special intercessor re some particular request or intercession on our behalf to God.

An for that matter what of the Book of Tobit? (Possible the best book on how the Communion of Saints work) Saint Raphael certainly did more than ‘just pray’.

Yes, St. Raphael did, because he had received a task from God.

As for the acting independently. Like John I await a statement on when a Catholic can act independently of God.

I am saying that a saint cannot act independantly hence am in agreement with what John has said.

With great respect , I dont want to become involved in a bunfight and this Post will be my final comment on the subject to avoid this potential …the reason being that I think we really are saying the same things differently. Of course, we do differ on the wording of prayers - but this is only a question of personal taste and preference where disagreement is always present usually - beauty remaining in the eyes of the beholder/different strokes for different folks…Blessings - Barb

 

[Jeanette_L]

Is it possible to agree that there are both Protestants and Catholics alike that have no real understanding of the theology behind prayer to the Saints to intercede on our behalf, and that things really should be clarified for everyone’s better understanding? Or is it ok to just say the heck with everyone, especially those Protestants, lets let them all continue in their ignorance, as long as we are able to remain happy and comfortable in our well worn garb.

Before becoming Catholic, I didn’t know one Catholic who had the proper understanding of what praying to the Saints was really all about, not one. Of course here on CAF, we find an abundance of Catholics who understand the basics and beyond, but out there in the “real world”, I’m sorry to say that the average lay Catholic thinks and prays in a way that only adds fuel to the fire in the Protestant world, as though the Saints are here at our every whim to grant all our wishes, like a genie in a bottle. How are we ever going to evangelize - both inside and outside the Church walls - if we don’t care about the misconceptions and do whatever it takes to correct the errors?

Having said all that, I don’t see anything wrong with instructing people in the theology - through the wording of prayers. For goodness sake, that’s what all the prayers given to us by the Church has always been about, from the Our Father to the Rosary and beyond. People need to be instructed somehow, proper prayers are always a good first step.

But then again, I’m one of those darn ex Protestants, coming in and trying to un-Catholicize everyone.

 

[Cathryn]

Here is a good prayer with an imprimatur for Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s Canonization:

Heavenly Father, source of all holiness, You raise up within the Church in every age men and women who serve with heroic love and dedication. You have blessed Your Church through the life and ministry of Your faithful servant, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen. He has written and spoken well of Your Divine Son, Jesus Christ, and was a true instrument of the Holy Spirit in touching the hearts of countless people.

If it be according to Your will, for the honor and glory of the Most Holy Trinity and for the salvation of souls, we ask You to move the Church to proclaim him a saint. We ask this prayer through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen. (Arcbishop Sheen Foundation) Imprimatur Most Rev. Daniel R. Jenky, C.S.C.Bishop of Peoria

 

[Alexios]

I wonder what some of you think about the Akathist to the Theotokos, which repeats “Most Holy Theotokos (Mother of God), save us!”

 

[Cathryn]

Here is a similar, but pre-vatican II prayer for the canonization of Pius XII. It seems to be proper form to pray to Jesus Christ, not directly to the proposed saint.

O Jesus, eternal High Priest, Who didst deign to raise Thy faithful servant, Pius XII, to the supreme dignity of Thy Vicar on earth and to grant him the grace to be a fearless defender of the faith, a valiant champion of justice and peace, zealous in proclaiming the glory of thy most holy Mother, a shining example of charity and all virtues, deign now to grant us, in view of his merits, the graces we ask of Thee; so that, made certain of his efficacious intercession with Thee, we may one day see him raised to the honors of our altars. Amen

imprimatur Petrus Canisius Vic. Gen. Civit. Vatic. Die 8 Dicembris 1958

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Is it possible to agree that there are both Protestants and Catholics alike that have no real understanding of the theology behind prayer to the Saints to intercede on our behalf, and that things really should be clarified for everyone’s better understanding? Or is it ok to just say the heck with everyone, especially those Protestants, lets let them all continue in their ignorance, as long as we are able to remain happy and comfortable in our well worn garb.

Before becoming Catholic, I didn’t know one Catholic who had the proper understanding of what praying to the Saints was really all about, not one. Of course here on CAF, we find an abundance of Catholics who understand the basics and beyond, but out there in the “real world”, I’m sorry to say that the average lay Catholic thinks and prays in a way that only adds fuel to the fire in the Protestant world, as though the Saints are here at our every whim to grant all our wishes, like a genie in a bottle. How are we ever going to evangelize - both inside and outside the Church walls - if we don’t care about the misconceptions and do whatever it takes to correct the errors?

Having said all that, I don’t see anything wrong with instructing people in the theology - through the wording of prayers. For goodness sake, that’s what all the prayers given to us by the Church has always been about, from the Our Father to the Rosary and beyond. People need to be instructed somehow, proper prayers are always a good first step.

But then again, I’m one of those darn ex Protestants, coming in and trying to un-Catholicize everyone.

…Well said…

 

[John_Hiner]

Is it possible to agree that there are both Protestants and Catholics alike that have no real understanding of the theology behind prayer to the Saints to intercede on our behalf, and that things really should be clarified for everyone’s better understanding? Or is it ok to just say the heck with everyone, especially those Protestants, lets let them all continue in their ignorance, as long as we are able to remain happy and comfortable in our well worn garb.

Before becoming Catholic, I didn’t know one Catholic who had the proper understanding of what praying to the Saints was really all about, not one. Of course here on CAF, we find an abundance of Catholics who understand the basics and beyond, but out there in the “real world”, I’m sorry to say that the average lay Catholic thinks and prays in a way that only adds fuel to the fire in the Protestant world, as though the Saints are here at our every whim to grant all our wishes, like a genie in a bottle. How are we ever going to evangelize - both inside and outside the Church walls - if we don’t care about the misconceptions and do whatever it takes to correct the errors?

Having said all that, I don’t see anything wrong with instructing people in the theology - through the wording of prayers. For goodness sake, that’s what all the prayers given to us by the Church has always been about, from the Our Father to the Rosary and beyond. People need to be instructed somehow, proper prayers are always a good first step.

But then again, I’m one of those darn ex Protestants, coming in and trying to un-Catholicize everyone.

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Ok. I am game. What is the proper understanding?

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[Jeanette_L]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Ok. I am game. What is the proper understanding?

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

I thought we covered that above, but we can go again a bit.

The Saints aren’t up in heaven waiting to grant our every wish, nor can they act by their own power, but as intercessors to the Father through Christ on our behalf. And never contrary to the nature or will of the Father.

I’ve seen some pretty crazy things in the name of praying to the Saints - for this, that or the other - sometimes even things bordering on the immoral.

Learning a little theology behind what prayer is and what role the Saints play in intercession is not an absurd idea.

I’m just sayin’.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I wonder what some of you think about the Akathist to the Theotokos, which repeats "Most Holy Theotokos (Mother of God), save us!"

**Actually, that would not be the Akathist itself but the canon associated with it, as well as the Paraclisis Canon and others.

It clearly means “Save us by your prayers.”

Remember, St. Paul said, “I became all things to all men that I might by all means save some.” Does this mean that Paul was offering himself as a savior?**

 

[John_Hiner]

The Saints aren’t up in heaven waiting to grant our every wish, nor can they act by their own power, but as intercessors to the Father through Christ on our behalf. And never contrary to the nature or will of the Father.
. . .
Learning a little theology behind what prayer is and what role the Saints play in intercession is not an absurd idea.

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

I am trying to be docile. So, please show me this, so that I can see and understand it. Please regard my questions and challenges as an effort to understand this position and its basis, rather than as an attempt to debate. I am willing to follow the argument where it leads. But:

I can see three of the four things asserted:

“The Saints aren’t up in heaven waiting to grant our every wish.” This is true even of the Father. As members of the Kingdom the efforts of the Saints are surely to further the will of the Father that the world be saved and the Holy Trinity honored. So, it is not human wishes but the divine will which the Saints serve.

“[A]s intercessors to the Father through Christ on our behalf:” It seems clear from the image of the incense in heaven and from the texts of countless prayers sanctioned by the Church that the Saints pray for and intercede with God on behalf of men and the world.

“And never contrary to the nature or will of the Father:” This condition applies to all Christian action or prayer. “If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.” (John (NAB) 14:14.) “You ask but do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.” (James (NAB) 4:3.)

However, the notion, “nor can they act by their own power,” does not seem consistent with the Incarnation or with the Gospel. I have already cited the passages referring to “great responsibility” and “reigning” in a previous post in this thread. I am also reminded of St. Peter and the lame man: “Peter said, “I have neither silver nor gold, but what I do have I give you: in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazorean, (rise and) walk.” (Acts (NAB) 3:6.)

It seems to me that the image of the Communion of Saints and of the proper way for Christians to praise God is deeply tied up with this issue. Which is the good Christian? The man who sees a man in need, gives him what he needs because Christ commanded it, and then remembers that man in prayer; or the man who sees a man in need and prays that God will relieve his poverty and give him what is needed? It seems to me that God *has *provided for the man’s needs, by commanding Christians to relieve him and give him what he needs from their own resources. Why would we conclude that the Saints in glory are less useful to God than those who do His will by their best lights here below? It seems rather that the Saints would have all of our power to act, and more, as with St. Peter in the passage above, but with a much clearer vision of God’s will by which to apply their efforts.

It is integral to the Incarnation that Christ acts through men. The gist of His generosity to us was to allow us to become agents and instruments of His action, precisely so that we become expressions of His love for the Father.

So, if anyone is willing, please explain the theory that leads people to view the organization of heaven such that the Saints listen to our prayers but refer all needs and requests for assistance to God to fulfill; or, at most, envisions the Saints as mostly doing the former, but sometimes applying to God for permission to act themselves in a narrowly defined and particular instance. (This seems to me to be the image conveyed by the posts so far which are consistent with the idea, “nor can they act by their own power.” If I have misunderstood the image, please help me correct my understanding of what is being asserted.)

As I understand it, this image suggests a Kingdom of rigid central control where authority is held within the hands of the monarch alone. It does not suggest a free kingdom where the monarch confidently trusts his ministers to do his will.

The alternative is to conceive the Saints as active and entrusted with areas of authority, which they exercise in their discretion, but within a clear and harmonious understanding of God’s will and always on behalf of and in the service of the Holy Trinity. In this second image, the Saints continue to pray in all of the ways that the faithful on earth pray: they pray by their actions in helping others in the name of Christ; they pray by appreciating and expressing wonder and gratitude for the beauty of creation; and they pray by addressing God directly, both asking Him for those things that only He can do to make their saintly work successful as well as directly expressing to Him their love, thanks, and praise.

This more active concept seems more consistent with Saints who ‘have never died.’ (See, John 11:26.)

What suggests that the less active view is more accurate?

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[BarbaraTherese]

It seems to me to be a very simple matter. Whether we are living or in Heaven and a saint, all good - be it miniscule or great - flows directly from God as it’s creator, initiator, source and origin…hence all the power and the glory is His alone with thankfulness due to the prayers of the saints in Heaven or some person here on earth who has been a channel of God’s Will and Blessings. And it needs to be said that the fact the saint has prayed or the person on earth prayed and acted flows too from God as creator, initiator, source and origin. All good is God’s. “Why do you call me good? only God is Good” Luke 18 Verse 19.
The problem raised, I thought, was that some prayers do seem to give the power and the glory to the saint in question and this is incorrect and presents the wrong concept and theological position to both Catholics not well educated in the Faith and certainly to non Catholics and in an age when we are called to evangelize that this type of wording does need amending.

So, if anyone is willing, please explain the theory that leads people to view the organization of heaven such that the Saints listen to our prayers but refer all needs and requests for assistance to God to fulfill; or, at most, envisions the Saints as mostly doing the former, but sometimes applying to God for permission to act themselves in a narrowly defined and particular instance. (This seems to me to be the image conveyed by the posts so far which are consistent with the idea, “nor can they act by their own power.” If I have misunderstood the image, please help me correct my understanding of what is being asserted.)

This is to reflect on Heaven and God’s Will within the confining straits of human logic and confine it there. Those in Heaven are perfectly united to God’s Will and all good that comes about on earth always has God as its source, origin and creator.

The question probably boils down, in part, to whether there is free will in Heaven:
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FRWILL.htm

I remain with the feeling that the same thought is being expressed differently in the main.

Blessings - Barb

 

[cyberwolf001]

Then a question needs to be asked.

WHY have a communion of saints to begin with?

According to this view there is no need for it, it’s function is perfectly fullfilled here.