Prayers to the Saints cannot be proven?

[Dancelittleewok]

I’ve argued on an anti-Catholic forum about praying to the saints, how it is the exactly the same on earth as it is in Heaven. I’ve used the resources on CA as scripture proofs, but the poster has dismissed them.

Her response to passages in Rev.:

I have a box of love letters from my husband that is overseas sitting on the kitchen table… I ask my sweet daughter to go and retrieve the box full of letters for me.

Does she know what the letters are? Can see read them as she is delivering them to me? Is she aware of anything that is contained in that box?

To answer these questions one would have to assume every answer.

That is how I read Revelations 5:8… to assume anything other than what is revealed is dangerous… to bad your church does not have multiple scriptures to back this practice up besides this flimsy, loose example of scripture that is applied to this bizarre practice.

When I asked, what does “prayers of the saints” refer to the Rev. She replied that they refer to the believers of Christ, whom Pauls calls saints in his Epistles. She cites:

Ephesians 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:1-3 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter)

Ephesians 1:15

Thanksgiving and Prayer ] For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,

Ephesians 1:14-16 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter)

Ephesians 1:18

I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 1:17-19 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter)

Ephesians 3:18

may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,

Ephesians 3:17-19 (in Context) Ephesians 3 (Whole Chapter)

Ephesians 6:18

And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Ephesians 6:17-19 (in Context) Ephesians 6 (Whole Chapter)

Philippians 1:1

Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:

Philippians 1:1-3 (in Context) Philippians 1 (Whole Chapter)

Philippians 4:21

Final Greetings ] Greet all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings.

Philippians 4:20-22 (in Context) Philippians 4 (Whole Chapter)

Philippians 4:22

All the saints send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar’s household.

Philippians 4:21-23 (in Context) Philippians 4 (Whole Chapter)

She asks:

who is Paul referring to in his letters to the Philippians and to the Ephesians when he addresses them as saints… is he talking to/writing to dead people (people who have died and are no longer on earth)?

Also, praying to the saints is apparently witchcraft and God has called it so.

I could use some help here, but it seems like I am arguing to ad nauseum. Prejudice reigns in CARM…

 

[mercygate]

I’ve argued on an anti-Catholic forum about praying to the saints, how it is the exactly the same on earth as it is in Heaven. I’ve used the resources on CA as scripture proofs, but the poster has dismissed them.

Her response to passages in Rev.:

When I asked, what does “prayers of the saints” refer to the Rev. She replied that they refer to the believers of Christ, whom Pauls calls saints in his Epistles. She cites:

She asks:

Also, praying to the saints is apparently witchcraft and God has called it so.

I could use some help here, but it seems like I am arguing to ad nauseum. Prejudice reigns in CARM…

One question I always ask when confronted with the point that Paul calls all the Christians saints is: Do they stop being saints when they go home to the Lord?

Your interlocutor says : "That is how I read Revelations 5:8…Ask her why her reading of Revelation (not “Revelations”) is more credible than that of the Church.
to assume anything other than what is revealed is dangerous…

Assume? What does she mean by that? You are reading the scripture dispassionately. You have simply elucidated the text as it stands: “the prayers of the saints.”

to bad your church does not have multiple scriptures to back this practice up besides this flimsy, loose example of scripture that is applied to this bizarre practice.

Multiple Scriptures? Does she not believe that the entire Bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God? If you have used CA resources, then you have cited “multiple scriptures” – including those from Hebrews and Jesus’ speaking with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of the Transfiguration. You have Scriptural warrant for the intercession of the saints. She has to find a way to deny that – and Deuteronomy and Samuel won’t cut it. That does not refer to the same thing. The saints are NOT dead. God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

I would also call her on the negative characterization of the intercession of the saints as “bizarre” – this clearly identifies her as someone more wrapped up in her own emotional response than in a dispassionate exploration of the issue.

 

[mercygate]

P.S.: this is on CARM? You won’t have to worry much longer. You’ll be banned before you can blink.

 

[jim1130]

Prejudice reigns in CARM…

CARM? I gave up that place for Lent and have never looked back.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

P.S.: this is on CARM? You won’t have to worry much longer. You’ll be banned before you can blink.

I was banned for promoting this forum, which is apparently “advertising.” Yesterday, the ban lifted and here we go.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

One question I always ask when confronted with the point that Paul calls all the Christians saints is: Do they stop being saints when they go home to the Lord?

Your interlocutor says : "That is how I read Revelations 5:8…

Ask her why her reading of Revelation (not “Revelations”) is more credible than that of the Church.
to assume anything other than what is revealed is dangerous…

Assume? What does she mean by that? You are reading the scripture dispassionately. You have simply elucidated the text as it stands: “the prayers of the saints.”

to bad your church does not have multiple scriptures to back this practice up besides this flimsy, loose example of scripture that is applied to this bizarre practice.

Multiple Scriptures? Does she not believe that the entire Bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God? If you have used CA resources, then you have cited “multiple scriptures” – including those from Hebrews and Jesus’ speaking with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of the Transfiguration. You have Scriptural warrant for the intercession of the saints. She has to find a way to deny that – and Deuteronomy and Samuel won’t cut it. That does not refer to the same thing. The saints are NOT dead. God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

I would also call her on the negative characterization of the intercession of the saints as “bizarre” – this clearly identifies her as someone more wrapped up in her own emotional response than in a dispassionate exploration of the issue.

I’ve commented on her and many others’ lack of charity and strawmen towards the Church but with no avail. The sad thing is she is a former Catholic and views praying to the saints as idolatry. I’ve remarked that how odd is it for someone whom believes in the afterlife to refer the saints as “dead.” My appeals to the article have led to comments that we have no scriptural proof, and that there’s none, that we’re just following a made up practice.

I’ve noticed that when we refer to scriptures, then we are “twisting” them. If we don’t, then we’re following man-made traditions and “unbiblical” practices. If we cite ECFs, then it is assumed that this were the folk that were preaching another Gospel at the same time as the apostles.

I’ve asked if one whom has been declared righteous (i.e. “saved”) has ceased to be righteous upon death by God, but she said that doesn’t prove that saints hear our prayers and continues to comment that those saints are whom Paul is addressing on earth. To her, prayers of the saints refers to the living ones, not the dead.

Is there any other way to respond to this? Can truth conquer prejudice?

 

[Liberian]

Dance Little Ewok,

The first question is what constitutes “proof.” I can point to a hundred examples where somebody prayed to a saint to ask God to intercede in some way and the requested event happened; they dismiss this as the work of Satan. (I know they do this; I’ve seen them do it before.) I cite Scripture passages and am told that my exegesis is faulty. To quote a “contemporary Christian” musician from the 1970’s, “You can’t see nothing when you close your eyes.”

• Liberian

 

[mercygate]

Can truth conquer prejudice?

Under the grace of God it can. You may not see the fruit of your effort but you have done what can be done. That is all that can be expected.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Also, praying to the saints is apparently witchcraft and God has called it so.

I could use some help here, but it seems like I am arguing to ad nauseum. Prejudice reigns in CARM…

Hi Dancelittleewok (nice name ),

At the Transfiguration, Jesus spoke with Elijah and Moses (see Mt 17:3). Would that be witchcraft?

Don’t confuse praying with a seance.

We should pray for each other… it’s what family would do. Even if we are dead, we are still part of the same family (see Ro 14:8 - “So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord”).

I really don’t know how praying with the saints works. It’s another mystery for me. And I’m not convinced that it is satanic to do so. My proof that Prayers to the Saints work is found in the countless of miracles that the Catholic Church has officially recognised. But unfortunately, Protestants are so focussed on the Bible (idolatry?) that they forget the living holy spirit at work here on earth.

 

[mnealon1]

We are all called to be Saints! There are thousands of people walking around the world at the moment who are Saints by living a virtious life and great works. However they will never come to the attention of the Church for cannionisation.
The first requirement the Church sees is the reporting by the ordinary lay people who give evidence of this persons extradionary life. of virtue. If through prayer to that person a miracle occurs the Church may investigate. This is a very long process and thoroughly investigates medically and Theologically.
If the Church agrees then the person is declared A Servant of God,and made Vererable.
The same proceedure takes place to extend this to being Blessed being satisified that a Miracle has occured, beyond anything that could have happened here on earth, without Divine intervention.
Again the proceedure continues and if another Miracle occurs and is proven it could only have come from Divine intervention then that person is elevated to Sainthood.
All this can take years and years of investagation.
I think the whole world would agree that Blessed Mother Teresa would be a very good example of a Saint!
Also another example of a Saint is Bernadette of Lourdes, whose mortal remains are just as she died for all to see at Lourdes.
People who have great Faith pray to their favourite Saint and recieve many favours. We pray to the Saints to present our petitions at the Throne of God to interceed for us, because after all it is God and God alone who gives us what he thinks is good for us. Perhaps we are often disappointed we do not get what we pray to our Saints for, but God may have anothe way of looking after us.
I would not imagine Satan would be involved in any of this, as he hates, God, Heaven, the Saints, and everyone who is trying to follow in the footsteps of God!

 

[Suudy]

Years ago I was at an Assembly of God funeral, and the pastor and many of the people spoke of the loved one that passed away as “smiling upon on” and “watching the funeral” and other such statements. These kind of statements contradict their view that those that have died on this earth are somehow separate and disconnected from us.

I brought this example up with an AoG friend of mine, and his response was “That’s different.” When I pressed the point that they believe those in heaven are aware of us, then they certainly can go to God to intercede on our behalf, he dismissed it. Similar to the OP’s discussion partner, he dismissed it as witchcraft. I left the argument alone, but the point was made.

 

[ricko]

Try searching at Catholic Answers home page. I read an article that might help there.

P.S. I’ve been to CARM and I must say you are in the lions den.

 

[jim1130]

Try searching at Catholic Answers home page. I read an article that might help there.

P.S. I’ve been to CARM and I must say you are in the lions den.

CARM is evil and the CARM-ites are belligerent, hostile, and so anti-Catholic it is a wonder they are not hit with hate crimes. You would have better luck trying to convince Seventh Day Adventists of join the Catholic Church.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

The daughter, in the example of the original post, is not in full communion with God. I think that the problem lies in a faulty understanding of what happens when we die. It also lies in being unable to put scripture together as a whole. This is one theological area where the lack of the deuterocanonical book of Tobit has a great impact. In Tobit, we see where an angel hears the prayers of humans and intercedes on their behalf. Now even if non-Catholics at that pitiful website actually believed that Tobit was inspired, they might reply that angels aren’t people who have died and gone to heaven. Well, not exactly— it is true human Saints are not angel Saints, however we are told in scripture is that human’s who go to heaven will be made ‘as the angels’. Angels are servants of God who, in addition to praising and worshipping God, also minister to the needs of people.

We are also told that ‘no one is righteous, no not one,’ but then we are told that the prayer of the righteous avails much. Wait a minute, no one is righteous yet the prayers of the righteous avail much?? It isn’t as contradictory as it may seem, we are not made fully righteous until we get to heaven. We are forgiven for our sins, certainly, but we continue to sin. But nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Does anybody at CARM stop to wonder why nothing unclean can enter heaven? It is because of the intimate communion with God that occurs when we get to heaven. What better time to pray for our brethen?!! Does it even make sense that the command to pray for our brethren cease just when our prayers become the most efficacious?

I find it sad and ironic that these people somehow think that it is taking away from God’s Glory to ask Saints to intercede for us. In my view, it adds to His Glory. That He has the ability to grant special gifts of His Spirit to those in heaven so that they can intercede only makes God look greater to me.

 

[haruka372sss]

what is CARM?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’ve argued on an anti-Catholic forum about praying to the saints, how it is the exactly the same on earth as it is in Heaven. I’ve used the resources on CA as scripture proofs, but the poster has dismissed them.

Her response to passages in Rev.:

When I asked, what does “prayers of the saints” refer to the Rev. She replied that they refer to the believers of Christ, whom Pauls calls saints in his Epistles. She cites:

She asks:

Also, praying to the saints is apparently witchcraft and God has called it so.

I could use some help here, but it seems like I am arguing to ad nauseum. Prejudice reigns in CARM…

You’ve been there too ? Fun, isn’t it ?​

About that last one - God has not called it any such thing:

• Human beings interpret as witchcraft (which God does forbid) the invoking of the Saints (which He has not forbidden)
  Or rather, the OT is made up of human writings which are taken as having Divine authority, which is why that passage in them - Deuteronomy 18 - is taken as having Divine authority.

It is an assumption that needs discussion, that the OT or that passage in particular have any authority today, or for Christians. The whole accusation bristles with unexamined assumptions, that need to be tested - not granted without further ado.

If the invoking of the Saints is witchcraft, why have Christians been allowed to do it for so many centuries ? Why were no prophets raised up to denounce it ? If the mediaeval opponents of the practice of the invoking of the Saints were,or were among, those prophets, why were they raised up so late, centuries after it began ? That did not happen in the OT: prophets were raised up soon after evils arose, not a thousand years after.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

what is CARM?

The​

• Christian
• Anti-
• Romish
• Monster
  site - or rather, the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry site

The two Catholic forums can be…difficult

 

[Micholos]

Proof? If the Churches long history of intercession of the saints is not proof enough, I don’t know what is.

Because of these intercessions sinners have seen and repented, how can that be against God’s will?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The daughter, in the example of the original post, is not in full communion with God. I think that the problem lies in a faulty understanding of what happens when we die. It also lies in being unable to put scripture together as a whole. This is one theological area where the lack of the deuterocanonical book of Tobit has a great impact. In Tobit, we see where an angel hears the prayers of humans and intercedes on their behalf. Now even if non-Catholics at that pitiful website actually believed that Tobit was inspired, they might reply that angels aren’t people who have died and gone to heaven. Well, not exactly— it is true human Saints are not angel Saints, however we are told in scripture is that human’s who go to heaven will be made ‘as the angels’. Angels are servants of God who, in addition to praising and worshipping God, also minister to the needs of people.

We are also told that ‘no one is righteous, no not one,’ but then we are told that the prayer of the righteous avails much. Wait a minute, no one is righteous yet the prayers of the righteous avail much?? It isn’t as contradictory as it may seem, we are not made fully righteous until we get to heaven. We are forgiven for our sins, certainly, but we continue to sin. But nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Does anybody at CARM stop to wonder why nothing unclean can enter heaven? It is because of the intimate communion with God that occurs when we get to heaven. What better time to pray for our brethen?!! Does it even make sense that the command to pray for our brethren cease just when our prayers become the most efficacious?

I find it sad and ironic that these people somehow think that it is taking away from God’s Glory to ask Saints to intercede for us. In my view, it adds to His Glory. That He has the ability to grant special gifts of His Spirit to those in heaven so that they can intercede only makes God look greater to me.

My thoughts exactly. ​

How is it in any way prejudicial to, or taking from, Christ, to say that He works through the members of His Body ? How is that unBiblical ? How are we not rather recognising God all the more by attributing the Life & efficacy of His Saints to Him ?

 

[ryanoneil]

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html