Prayers to the Virgin Mary

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sami1066

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I would like some thoughts, Im Roman Catholic but I do not have and will not have a statue of the Virgin Mary, I do not pray to her and Do not believe in the apparitions anywhere. My reasoning is from the Old testament and the Gospels.I Know the Vatican Removed the second Commandment , but I hold firm to it about no graven images, and believe that prayers should only be offered to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I reject the Idea of co-redemptrix as Jesus said “i am the way the truth and the life, no one goes to the Father** but by me**”
Any thoughts please, is that wrong or is it down to personal belief???
 
I Know the Vatican Removed the second Commandment , but I hold firm to it about no graven images, and believe that prayers should only be offered to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
First off: nope, no it didn’t. 😉
 
I would like some thoughts, Im Roman Catholic but I do not have and will not have a statue of the Virgin Mary, I do not pray to her and Do not believe in the apparitions anywhere. My reasoning is from the Old testament and the Gospels.I Know the Vatican Removed the second Commandment , but I hold firm to it about no graven images, and believe that prayers should only be offered to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I reject the Idea of co-redemptrix as Jesus said “i am the way the truth and the life, no one goes to the Father** but by me**”
Any thoughts please, is that wrong or is it down to personal belief???
Dear Sami:

You are entitled to your opinion but your statement and is inaccurate in regards to the Old Testament that the Catholic Vatican removed the 2nd Commandment.

I do not think as a Catholic that you see the importance of making SYMBOL of the Virgin Mary and pray to her as she as an ideal Lady that has a hugh importance on who JESUS is and how he came into this World.

Yet you hypocrites HONOR past MEN and WOMEN of high POSTIONS with their PHOTOGRAPS DISPLAYED in TELEVISION, NEWS ARTICLES AND PARADES… ALL THESE ARE GRAVEN IMAGES… HOW ABOUT MARTIN LUTHER KING DAY?.. A say of remembrance…right… I say name over 100 of such simple things that you and your families and friends acknowledged and yet you harden your hearts to the facts of HOW SPECIAL VIRGIN MARY A LADY OF SPECIAL HONOR AS SHE WILL ALWAYS BE REVEREND AS A SPECIAL FORM OF WORSHIP.

This form of worship does not break the 2nd commandment…

Performing graven images of EVIL is what the TESTAMENT and the LORD JESUS CHRIST is telling us.

THE SYMBOLS OF GRAVEN IMAGES IS LIKE AN ALTER WHEREBY SACRIFICES WERE MADE IN THE NAME OF GOD AS REFERENCED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Did God asked Abraham to offer his SON as SACRIFICE… How did he do it? ANSWER; He made an ALTER which symbolizes the ALTER OF GOD which is CONSIDERED AS A GRAVEN IMAGE.OR ALTER OF GOD. GOD HAS TESTED ABRAHAM TO SEE THE FAITH OF A TRUE BELIEVER…

**Either you are a One of those Jehovah Witness or 7 Day Adventist or One of those Praise the Lord Chuch that beleives in the old testament and has no regards for the comming of Christ and the death and Risen of Christ; YOU WILL NOT SEE THE REALITY WITH AN OPEN MIND…

MOST OF YOU ARE BRAIN-WASHED BY THESE CHURCHES ALWAYS STATING THAT THEY ARE THE TRUE CHRISTIANS AND THAT CATHOLICS ARE WRONG IN THEIR WORSHIP.

The SYMBOL of the IMMCULATE VIRGIN MARY that you are referring as GRAVEN IMAGES does not in any shape or from break the constitution of the 2nd Commandment.
 
I did’nt know the Vatican removed the second cammandment.🤷
I think you might be wrong here. When? Why?

God bless

jesus g
 
Nobody removed the 2nd Commandment. Its still there and always will be. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of God. We honor and respect her. We do NOT worship her. She is the most powerful intercessor for us in heaven. She is God’s Mother.
 
Laudetur Jesus et Maria semper Virgo!

Greetings Sami and welcome to Catholic Answers Forum. This thread may not get many replies because it happens to be in the wrong sub-forum - perhaps it will be moved to the appropriate sub-forum in due time (Apologetics).

Nevertheless, this ignorant layman will give you some thoughts!
Im Roman Catholic but I do not have and will not have a statue of the Virgin Mary, I do not pray to her and Do not believe in the apparitions anywhere.
You don’t have a statue now… but just you wait 😉 And oh! What a marvelous position you are in! To have never asked the Blessed Virgin for her intercession means that when you do finally ask her to pray to Jesus for you many graces will be bestowed on you all at once. These are exciting times!
My reasoning is from the Old testament and the Gospels.
Perhaps you could cite exactly where prayer to Mary is forbidden and where statues of her are forbidden.

Please note that in the Old Testament statues were not forbidden. What is forbidden is graven images - that is, it is forbidden to make statues or images for the express purpose of worshiping these things as a god!

Notice in the Old Testament that almost immediately after having given Moses these commandments God commands Moses to make Cherubims to adorn the Ark! Not only that - but do you remember the story of the Bronze Snake? Where in order to be healed the people had to look at it? Ah! See!

Notice what happens on the Cross of Jesus Christ. Jesus was suffering. In all His pain, agony and suffering - despite what pain it would cause, He thought it important enough to utter the following words: “Woman, behold your son”. Then he said to the disciple, “Behold your mother”. Now why is this? And why was it recorded? Ah. We see now, it makes sense. Jesus was given Mary to all of us!

Much more could be said here. Think about the wedding of Cana where Mary first intercedes.
I Know the Vatican Removed the second Commandment , but I hold firm to it about no graven images,
You’ve been reading some anti-Catholic material 😦 This is not true my friend!
I reject the Idea of co-redemptrix as Jesus said “i am the way the truth and the life, no one goes to the Father** but by me**”
Co-redemptrix may be tripping you up simply because of language. In English we tend to think of “co” as meaning “equal”. The Latin merely means “with”. Which is true. Mary co-operated with God when she said her great “Fiat (let it be done!)”. Without Mary then Jesus as we know Him wouldn’t be Jesus. Can you see this? Thus, it is true that while totally unequal to Jesus in every way because Jesus is God Almighty - Mary worked ‘with’ God so that the redemption could come about. Ah! Beautiful. Nothing to be afraid of there. Who else in history can claim to be the one who said “Yes” to God in such a way? Who else is the Mother of Christ? Nobody but Our Lady!
Any thoughts please, is that wrong or is it down to personal belief???
There are certain things Catholics must believe about Mary. Besides these beliefs (and the movement of the heart) You needn’t exactly have a massive devotion to Our Lady- but you’d be missing out! May I suggest you read a book called “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonsus? It is probably available online somewhere. This book will help you to see why Mary is venerated!

God Bless and I hope this has somewhat helped.
 
I would like some thoughts, Im Roman Catholic but I do not have and will not have a statue of the Virgin Mary, I do not pray to her and Do not believe in the apparitions anywhere. My reasoning is from the Old testament and the Gospels.I Know the Vatican Removed the second Commandment , but I hold firm to it about no graven images, and believe that prayers should only be offered to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I reject the Idea of co-redemptrix as Jesus said “i am the way the truth and the life, no one goes to the Father** but by me**”
Any thoughts please, is that wrong or is it down to personal belief???
Sami,
Welcome to the forums. Your topic is one that will undoubtedly receive many replies. Please read them carefully and dispassionately for some might come across rather…ummm… forceful. :whistle:

That said, allow me to offer my insights because I come from a similar journey and position as you.

First of all, your Catechesis seems to be lacking or in error. The Church has not removed the second commandment. But since others have already addressed this, I won’t belabor the point.

Second - In regards to the issue of “co-redemptix” I had a lot of trouble with this one but, upon some research, discovered that the term, as used in Latin, is quite different from how we normally understand it in modern English. In our modern vernacular, the prefix “Co” is often seen as being “equal with” - a “Co-pilot” is equally a pilot in the cockpit. In the courtroom a “co-council” is just as much a lawyer as the primary lawyer…
However, the term “Co-redemptix” as used in the Latin simply means that Mary “co-operated” in a “unique” and “special” way such that, without her very special cooperation, the plan of redemption could not proceed. It is not intended to convey a “Co-equal with Christ” meaning.

Third - and more immediate and practical - the matter of praying to and through Mary…I have a simple answer for this one. If it feels uncomfortable to you - then don’t do it. Pure and simple. Nowhere in Church teaching are we required to pray to Mary. The closest we come to a requirement is in the Mass where the name of Mary and the Saints are asked to join with us in prayer.
Our Blessed Mother wishes to lead us to her Son. She does not seek to be an impediment. So if you (like me) are more comfortable praying directly to the Father, as we are taught by Jesus, then by all means do so.

Then - as you move forward on your spiritual journey, seek greater understandings Our Blessed Mother within the Church. Don’t feel that you need to force it…But at the same time, be open to it.

Peace
James
 
The vatican did not remove the second commandment. They consider the words you spoke to be part of the first commandment. To have no strange gods before God includes not worshipping graven images etc.Catholics combined the first and second commandments, and protestants combined the ninth and tenth. It’s basically a matter of punctuation.

Catholics do not worship the Blessed Virgin. We ask her to pray for us much as you ask your friends to pray for you. Sometimes our language is sloppy. We say we will ask Mary for help. What we really mean is that we will ask her to intercede for us, to pray for us. Again, most people will ask a friend to talk to someone they know well to help us to deal with that person more effectively (like Dad asks his friend to help get a job for junior at the place where he works). It’s not something really different.
 
Sami,
Code:
 I strongly urge you to study your Catholic faith.  It's far, far deeper than you think.  And, it comes from Jesus Christ.  

 I also strongly see some Protestant viewpoints in your opinion, whether they got there directly or indirectly.

 Catholics leave their Catholic faith only because they really never knew what they had.  And they never knew what they had because they never really learned their Catholic faith.

 There are many, many sources by which you can learn the faith given us by Christ, as taught by His Body, the Church.  I would be happy to provide you with some, if you need help.
God bless!
 
HI Sami,

Welcome to the forums. I am glad you are here and asking your questions because it sounds like you have been getting bombarded by anti-catholic rhetoric. It is nice to see that you decided to seek out the Catholic response to such accusations before making up your mind.

I agree with what every one else has said. Namely 1) The vatican did not do away with the commandments Catholics have also combined what the Protestants call the first two commandments into the first Commandment. It is really protestants who made the change. 2) If you are uncomfortable praying (ie asking) Mary for her intercession you don’t have to. That is upto you.

May I suggest getting the book Catholicism for Dummies. I have heard that it is wonderful book to help explain the Catholic faith and might getting you on firmer footing with your Catechesis. Again welcome to the forum and thank you for asking questions. If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to post again. Rest assured the Catholic Church has a more than adequate response for all charges thrown against her.
 
I was drawn to this thread because of the title. Do some independent research on Mary and veneration. Wikipedia has a long article that talks about the history behind it. People have “prayed to Mary” for a loooooong time. The term Theotokos was found on papyrus in the 200s, so “Mother of God” is a term that’s been in use for at LEAST 1700-1800 years. Keep in mind that period of time is considered by the Protestant community as “uncorrupted”. I mention it, because that’s likely the next step in this argument. Having a protestant/anti-catholic background, I too felt uncomfortable with Marian doctrines. Read what Catholicism has to say about it. It all checks out. The thought of a statue bothers you, but does kneeling and praying in front of a cross rub you the same way? Most would say no, but in the same vain as “images”, they’re identical. What about a church or cathedral itself? Again, kinda the same. For every item you find that looks like Catholics have gotten Christianity wrong, look up the rebuttal from a Catholic perspective. Everything I disagreed with, was ignorance on my part.
 
I would like some thoughts, Im Roman Catholic but I do not have and will not have a statue of the Virgin Mary, I do not pray to her and Do not believe in the apparitions anywhere. My reasoning is from the Old testament and the Gospels.I Know the Vatican Removed the second Commandment , but I hold firm to it about no graven images, and believe that prayers should only be offered to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I reject the Idea of co-redemptrix as Jesus said “i am the way the truth and the life, no one goes to the Father** but by me**”
Any thoughts please, is that wrong or is it down to personal belief???
I think that is disagreeing with Catholic doctrine…

the Bible tells us not to worship images. We don’t worship them. Did you know that in Scripture, God also told the Israelites in the OT to make images for the temple?

Also it doesn’t say that we can only pray to God, it says we should only worship God. Prayer is not always worship. We ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us and all prayers eventually go to God.

As for Co-Redemptrix, it doesn’t mean that we go to the Father through Mary and not Jesus, we still go through Him, but it means that she leads us to her Son and that she participated in His one work of redemption.

Maybe it could help you to read a book like “Hail Holy Queen” 🙂

God bless
 
Namely 1) The vatican did not do away with the commandments Catholics have also combined what the Protestants call the first two commandments into the first Commandment. It is really protestants who made the change.
Patrick the Nitpicker here.

The ‘Protestant’ (sic) division of the Commandments, more properly called the Philonic Division, actually has quite an ancient pedigree: in fact, it is found in the writings of Philo and Josephus (De Decalogo 12.51; Antiquities 3.89-92), who both employ this reckoning long before Protestantism even existed. It is not just used by most Protestants, but is also the division of choice for the Eastern Orthodox even today. Some Church Fathers such as Origen (Homilies on Exodus, Homily 8 On the Beginning of the Decalogue), St. Gregory of Nazianzus (The Decalogue of Moses) and St. Jerome (Commentary on Ephesians 6) are also known to have used this reckoning.

Catholics and Lutherans use the so-called Augustinian division (named after St. Augustine, who popularized it), while modern-day Jews use the Talmudic division (so called because it is the one found in the Talmud.)
 
I was drawn to this thread because of the title. Do some independent research on Mary and veneration. Wikipedia has a long article that talks about the history behind it. People have “prayed to Mary” for a loooooong time. The term Theotokos was found on papyrus in the 200s, so “Mother of God” is a term that’s been in use for at LEAST 1700-1800 years.
Yes, here it is.

http://www.frederica.com/picture/Rylands 170.jpg?pictureId=1067611&asGalleryImage=true

“Under your compassion we take refuge, O Theotokos; do not disregard our prayers in the midst of tribulation, but deliver us from danger, Only Pure, Only Blessed One.” It’s actually a prayer in use even today in both the East and the West! 😉
 
Oh my!Where to begin? I love and honor Mary as the mother of Our Lord,Jesus Christ.And…Mary is our spiritual mother too!Christ gave her to us as he hung on the cross.“Mother,behold your son(John).Son behold your mother” Christ performed His first miracle at Cana,at Mary’s urging.So confident was she that her Son would hear her appeals,she told the servants"Do whatever He tells you" She is our greatest intercessor.Mary is all about leading us to her Son. In your faith journey,I hope is that you will grow to love Mary,she is a good mama!😉
 
On the subject of images, you are putting your interpretation of the Old Testament above that of the mind of the Church. That images are worthy of veneration was not decided by the ‘Vatican’, but rather by the entire Church in an ecumenical council after many years of fighting over the issue, mainly in the East.

The Second Council of Constantinople says this “We decree with full precision and care that, like the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, the revered and holy images, whether painted or made of mosaic or of other suitable material, are to be exposed in the holy Churches of God, on sacred instruments and vestments, on walls and panels, in houses and by public ways; these are the images of our Lord, God and saviour, Jesus Christ, and of our Lady without blemish, the holy God-bearer, and of the revered angels and of any of the saintly holy men…The honor paid to an image traverses it, reaching the model; and he who venerates the image, venerates the person represented in that image.”

On the subject of praying to Mary, if you don’t do it because you believe it is wrong to do so, then there is in fact a problem, because you are saying that what the Church teaches regarding this is wrong, and implicitly placing judgment on those who do so. Further, even if you simply choose not to, that remains somewhat of a problem, because you would not be able to fully participate in the Church’s liturgy. If you were to go to an Eastern rite Divine Liturgy, you would sing the following: “You are truly deserving of glory, O Theotokos, the ever-blessed and most pure mother of our God. More honorable than the cherubim, and beyond compare, more glorious than the seraphim, you who without corruption gave birth to God the Word, true Theotokos, we magnify you.” If you were to pray the Roman rite liturgy of the hours, night prayer is completed with an antiphon sung to the blessed Virgin. You have a problem not just with personal devotions, but with the prayer of the Church, in that case.
 
On the subject of images, you are putting your interpretation of the Old Testament above that of the mind of the Church. That images are worthy of veneration was not decided by the ‘Vatican’, but rather by the entire Church in an ecumenical council after many years of fighting over the issue, mainly in the East.

The Second Council of Constantinople says this “We decree with full precision and care that, like the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, the revered and holy images, whether painted or made of mosaic or of other suitable material, are to be exposed in the holy Churches of God, on sacred instruments and vestments, on walls and panels, in houses and by public ways; these are the images of our Lord, God and saviour, Jesus Christ, and of our Lady without blemish, the holy God-bearer, and of the revered angels and of any of the saintly holy men…The honor paid to an image traverses it, reaching the model; and he who venerates the image, venerates the person represented in that image.”

On the subject of praying to Mary, if you don’t do it because you believe it is wrong to do so, then there is in fact a problem, because you are saying that what the Church teaches regarding this is wrong, and implicitly placing judgment on those who do so. Further, even if you simply choose not to, that remains somewhat of a problem, because you would not be able to fully participate in the Church’s liturgy. If you were to go to an Eastern rite Divine Liturgy, you would sing the following: “You are truly deserving of glory, O Theotokos, the ever-blessed and most pure mother of our God. More honorable than the cherubim, and beyond compare, more glorious than the seraphim, you who without corruption gave birth to God the Word, true Theotokos, we magnify you.” If you were to pray the Roman rite liturgy of the hours, night prayer is completed with an antiphon sung to the blessed Virgin. You have a problem not just with personal devotions, but with the prayer of the Church, in that case.
I agree very much with this post, but would place a caveat on the section that I bolded. Not saying it is entirely wrong, but that it perhaps doesn’t take into account where different people might be in their journeys. For example the OP might that praying to Mary is “wrong” for him without trying to pass judgement on the actions on anyone else or on the teachings of the Church. I can say this because I felt this way for some time as I was coming home to the Church.
As for choosing not to pray to Mary and participation in the liturgy, again, some leeway needs to be extended for those entering into the Church. attempting to participate in something that you are not spiritually prepared for will not be productive, and the discomfort can actually impede participation in areas where one IS comfortable.

So - I would refrain from calling such a “problem”. More like something that needs to be further explored. After all, our Church is chock full of wonderful, deep, rich, and exciting aspects and spiritualities. If we don’t fully understand or participate in this one or that one, it’s not a “Problem” it’s more like another, untapped, treasure.

We all need to explore at our own pace.

Peace
James
 
I thank you all for your replies,i dont mean to offend i am new to the forum and I have been a catholic all my life since birth im 31 now and lost my faith but i have recently found god again and am on a journey of rediscovery. This is why I posed this question. I have never been in with protestants, but I am interested in orthodoxy,so i am educating my self on my Catholic faith, please dont judge me i am after advice thats all. I have found my Catholic faith again I went looking for other religions but have found mt Catholic faith had everything i was looking for all along. So I am seeking is all.
 
I thank you all for your replies,i dont mean to offend i am new to the forum and I have been a catholic all my life since birth im 31 now and lost my faith but i have recently found god again and am on a journey of rediscovery. This is why I posed this question. I have never been in with protestants, but I am interested in orthodoxy,so i am educating my self on my Catholic faith, please dont judge me i am after advice thats all. I have found my Catholic faith again I went looking for other religions but have found mt Catholic faith had everything i was looking for all along. So I am seeking is all.
You have not offended anyone, and we are glad to try to help in any way we can.

Peace
James
 
In my time away from the church i had read a lot of anti catholic stuff, But I have returned to the church received confession and communion and I am in the process of re-reading the catechism.
 
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