Praying for conversion?

[ThatOneDudeAlex]

I’ve read on multiple occasions people praying for the conversion of homosexuals.

Is this a right thing to do?

I’m certain that some people have changed, sure, but what about the majority? It seems that in praying for conversion, we’re being intolerant. To the extent of my knowledge, and please correct me if I’m wrong, the church has no problem with homosexuality. The problem comes in with acting upon it sexually.

Wouldn’t it be better to pray for them to gain strength to resist sin, rather than pray for them to change? If it was by their choice (and why would it be, given the harassment you have to endure), it’s different. But if God made someone that way… why try and change what He intended for them?

 

[ahs]

It is good to pray for people. Even if your intentions in prayer are mal-formed, Holy Spirit can take an imperfect prayer and make it into a perfect prayer that conforms with God’s Will.

Sure, we should be praying that people will have the stregth to resist same-sex-attractions or homosexual desires. But it is an error to assume that God made people to have same-sex attractions or homosexual desires. Homosexuality is specifically condemned in Scripture and in the Church Teachings given to us by God. God would not, then, intend for a person to have homosexual desires and create them that way. Their homosexual desires or same-sex attractions stem from something else…the stain of original sin at the root of it.

-ahs

 

[francisca]

To assume that God make someone that way is neither biblical nor scientific. It’s just too easy to say it that way because the bible say God did not make people that way. Our biological body also attest to the same thing.

So what if it is hormonal imbalance since in the womb, for example. Well if that is the case, then it is a disordered condition. Disordered condition must be treated, not to be “cherish” as normal condition. Sure some disordered cases are difficult and untreatable. Thus the church is very wise in saying that only if one engage in the behavior that he commit immorality.

As for the rest of the people whose hormones are normal, and every aspects of his/ her medical health are good, then they can’t just blame it to “unknown biological cause”.

Our biological existance is very real. The fact that we are our gender is actually a meticulous design that can’t just be refute by saying “may be something is wrong”. If something is wrong, it will show in a very vivid way. For example even the way we look is related to our hormone/ general health condition. My look will change when there is a slight change in one/ more of my hormones. Moreover if my hormones are in the “wrong” then I will change completely into different person. If this is the case, then it will show in the medical report. If there is no such thing, then my gender is the way my biological body is. This is the reality of our sexuality.

Thus we can’t just “blame in on God” that easily.

 

[ThatOneDudeAlex]

Thus we can’t just “blame in on God” that easily.

Okay, even if it’s not “God’s fault”, the same idea applies. If someone is able to live that way without sin, is it right to pray that they change who they are?

 

[francisca]

Okay, even if it’s not “God’s fault”, the same idea applies. If someone is able to live that way without sin, is it right to pray that they change who they are?

“Who they are” is a tricky question.

“To pray that they change who they are” is actually to pray that “God restore them to their true-self, the good person God created”.

 

[thistle]

I’ve read on multiple occasions people praying for the conversion of homosexuals.

Is this a right thing to do?

I’m certain that some people have changed, sure, but what about the majority? It seems that in praying for conversion, we’re being intolerant. To the extent of my knowledge, and please correct me if I’m wrong, the church has no problem with homosexuality. The problem comes in with acting upon it sexually.

Wouldn’t it be better to pray for them to gain strength to resist sin, rather than pray for them to change? If it was by their choice (and why would it be, given the harassment you have to endure), it’s different. But if God made someone that way… why try and change what He intended for them?

Are you then saying that we should not pray for the conversion of everyone on Earth to see the truth and convert to the Catholic faith. Do you consider it intolerant for us to want everyone to become Catholic?

 

[francisca]

Moreover, because the topic is “praying for conversion” it has something to do with freedom of religion.

I will pray according to my religion, and the world must respect this.

They are allowed to pray otherwise, Let them. We shall respect their freedom to do this too.

“Let’s see whose prayer will be heard”, said prophet Elijah to the prophets of Baal.

All glory to God in the name of Jesus Christ His only begotten son by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Amen. Amen. Amen.

 

[ThatOneDudeAlex]

Are you then saying that we should not pray for the conversion of everyone on Earth to see the truth and convert to the Catholic faith. Do you consider it intolerant for us to want everyone to become Catholic?

Well… yes. I mean, say a person is raised not knowing any better. There’s a forty year-old man who’s been Baptist his whole life. His parents raised him that way. He’s gone to church every weekend since he was a baby, he’s active in his church, all that jazz. Who are we to tell him “Yeah, everything you were taught. It’s wrong. Come over here, otherwise, you’re screwed.” If he’d like to learn more, than by all means, pray for him, and show him! But no matter how “right” we think we are, I don’t think it’s right to try and change other people…

 

[thistle]

Well… yes. I mean, say a person is raised not knowing any better. There’s a forty year-old man who’s been Baptist his whole life. His parents raised him that way. He’s gone to church every weekend since he was a baby, he’s active in his church, all that jazz. Who are we to tell him “Yeah, everything you were taught. It’s wrong. Come over here, otherwise, you’re screwed.” If he’d like to learn more, than by all means, pray for him, and show him! But no matter how “right” we think we are, I don’t think it’s right to try and change other people…

Frankly, that’s ridiculous and it contradicts what Jesus said. You are calling Jesus intolerant.

Matt 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

 

[ThatOneDudeAlex]

Frankly, that’s ridiculous and it contradicts what Jesus said. You are calling Jesus intolerant.

Matt 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

Baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a Christian thing, not a Catholic thing. Am I wrong?

 

[francisca]

Your first post was about praying for conversion of homosexuals.

However the word “taught” below (I bold and underline it) is irrelevant for homosexual cases.

Well… yes. I mean, say a person is raised not knowing any better. There’s a forty year-old man who’s been Baptist his whole life. His parents raised him that way. He’s gone to church every weekend since he was a baby, he’s active in his church, all that jazz. Who are we to tell him "Yeah, everything you were taught. It’s wrong. Come over here, otherwise, you’re screwed." If he’d like to learn more, than by all means, pray for him, and show him! But no matter how “right” we think we are, I don’t think it’s right to try and change other people…

The above post is trying to “position” as if homosexuality is something equivalent as being “a baptist”. Thus such is being taught by parents since childhood.

Homosexuality is in noway in comparison of being “a baptist”.

No parent teach their children to become homosexuals.

 

[ThatOneDudeAlex]

Your first post was about praying for conversion of homosexuals.

However the word “taught” below (I bold and underline it) is irrelevant for homosexual cases.

The above post is trying to “position” as if homosexuality is something equivalent as being “a baptist”. Thus such is being taught by parents since childhood.

Homosexuality is in noway in comparison of being “a baptist”.

No parent teach their children to become homosexuals.

That’s simply because the topic was changed! You’re addressing a totally different point.

 

[thistle]

Baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a Christian thing, not a Catholic thing. Am I wrong?

I am assume you are not suggesting Catholics are not Christians. Although baptism is necessary for salvation it is not sufficient to save you. You must be baptised and Catholic (i.e. a member of the only Church established by Christ) and die in a state of grace to be saved.
Why do you think Christ established the Church?

 

[ThatOneDudeAlex]

I am assume you are not suggesting Catholics are not Christians. Although baptism is necessary for salvation it is not sufficient to save you. You must be baptised and Catholic (i.e. a member of the only Church established by Christ) and die in a state of grace to be saved.
Why do you think Christ established the Church?

Catholics are Christians. I’m aware of that. Catholics baptize through the trinity, as does other Christian religions.

We have come so far from the original topic, so I want to try and bring it back.

Should we pray that homosexuals change to heterosexuallity if they aren’t sinning due to their sexuallity?

 

[thistle]

Catholics are Christians. I’m aware of that. Catholics baptize through the trinity, as does other Christian religions.

We have come so far from the original topic, so I want to try and bring it back.

Should we pray that homosexuals change to heterosexuallity if they aren’t sinning due to their sexuallity?

Before I can give you an answer I need to know what you mean. I don’t understand the part of your question I underlined.

 

[ThatOneDudeAlex]

Before I can give you an answer I need to know what you mean. I don’t understand the part of your question I underlined.

Being gay isn’t a sin.

Acting upon being gay (dating+) is.

If someone is gay, but resists the temptaion to date, have sexual acts with, marry, whatever, should we pray for them to become straight, as I’ve heard of people doing.

 

[thistle]

Being gay isn’t a sin.

Acting upon being gay (dating+) is.

If someone is gay, but resists the temptaion to date, have sexual acts with, marry, whatever, should we pray for them to become straight, as I’ve heard of people doing.

I’m still a bit confused.
We should be praying for everyone (homosexual or not) to become Catholics and to obey Church teachings.
I also don’t see any problem praying for a homosexual to become straight? People are not born gay. There is no gay gene. They become gay through one or more of upbringing, environment and choice so praying for them to no longer be disordered is a good thing. If they cannot change then its no problem as long as they obey Church teachings and live a celibate life which many do.

 

[TobyLue]

Alex

I’m certain that some people have changed, sure, but what about the majority? It seems that in praying for conversion, we’re being intolerant

To pray for the conversions of sinners is NOT being intolerant. AMOF, we have become TOO tolerant. Look at the things that are accepted as norm; sex outside marriage, abortion, gay “rights”, birth control, cursing, sex education for children started at earlier and earlier age, sex abounds in movies and TV shows, lewd dressing etc. etc. It is our responsibility to pray for everybody. It is up to the Holy Spirit to do the conversion. We let God be God. We pray, pray, pray always. If we don’t see results, it’s not because our prayers are not working and that God has failed. God is in control and He allows things to happen which we may not understand. It is not for us to see the results; it is for us to pray. God knows what’s going on.

Remember, too that we all have free will. God will NOT force His ways on others. Alex, simply because we don’t see the majority changing, that does not mean they haven’t or won’t. Maybe a gay person changed on their deathbed. We simply don’t know. Remember, a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day to our Lord. We may read where someone died instantaneously, but in an attosecond Our Lord may have given that person time to repent. Remember, God is outside of time and an “instant” means nothing to God.

Baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a Christian thing, not a Catholic thing. Am I wrong?

Yes, it IS a Catholic thing. Remember, Jesus founded ONE church. That Church at the beginning was simply called “The Church”. That same church was then referred to by St. Ignatius of Antioch as “The Catholic Church”. It is still that same Church today. So by virtue of a person being baptized using the Trinitarian Formula, whether Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc., they are members of The Catholic Church albeit in a deficient manner. An please don’t let yourself be cornered into a Catholic VS Christian thing. Catholics ARE Christians; AMOF, they are the first Christians. I don’t know if Church history is taught in your school but you should look into studying the Early Church Fathers, the history of the Church and you will find that the Catholic Church has remained constant in Her teachings. All those other churches came during the Reformation. Many call the Catholic Church as one of many Christians Denominations. The CC is NOT a denomination, but it is THE Church Jesus founded, which scripture calls “the pillar and foundation of Truth”.
And yes, we should pray for the conversion of all to the Catholic Faith. The CC teaches that ALL Christians, and in fact most all religions have some truth in them. But only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth.

Re:

Yeah, everything you were taught. It’s wrong. Come over here, otherwise, you’re screwed."

Hah, No , Alex, we can’t judge a person and tell him he’s screwed and going to hell. That would be judging and we don’t do that. I believe God put you on this forum for a purpose and maybe that is to learn apologetics; that is, learn and explain the Truth in the Catholic Church.

Wouldn’t it be better to pray for them to gain strength to resist sin, rather than pray for them to change?

Resisting sin will have a change on the person. Why would you not pray for somebody to change? If a guy has a homosexual attraction, and dresses as a woman, wouldn’t you like to see that person change? If a person is a pedophile, don’t you want that person to change or just resist the temptation to molest a child? Yes, some may never change, but if they realize that it’s wrong to act on those urges and are living a chaste life, then they can participate fully in the Eucharist.

Are you familiar with the Divine Mercy Novena? Prayers are offered each day for different intentions; All mankind especially all sinners, souls of priest & religious, all devout and faithful souls, for those who do not believe or do not yet know Jesus, the souls of the separated brethren, etc. Remember Jesus’ prayer to the Father that ALL may be one. We should pray for the conversion of Muslims, atheists, Protestants, Orthodox, etc.

God Bless

 

[SurlyMermaid]

My personal belief is that God knows better than I. He knows if there is a “gay gene” or not. He knows others’ hearts, etc. Those particulars are not for the Surly Mermaid to decide! I am aware of the Church’s teachings. I also know that I’ve committed adultery, had premarital sex, used birth control, lied, stolen… you name it!

I pray for everyone that God blesses them and that they have the best possible journey on earth. Beyond that, I don’t believe, is for me to say. I will also do my part to help anyone in need I can and to love them as Jesus loves me.

This is just my opinion. I’ve very, very new to Christianity in general.

 

[Nelka]

My personal belief is that God knows better than I. He knows if there is a “gay gene” or not. He knows others’ hearts, etc. Those particulars are not for the Surly Mermaid to decide! I am aware of the Church’s teachings. I also know that I’ve committed adultery, had premarital sex, used birth control, lied, stolen… you name it!

I pray for everyone that God blesses them and that they have the best possible journey on earth. Beyond that, I don’t believe, is for me to say. I will also do my part to help anyone in need I can and to love them as Jesus loves me.

This is just my opinion. I’ve very, very new to Christianity in general.

There is no gay gene!

Would God condemn people for this?

Would He have destroyed Sodom for this?

It is an excuse.

Pray for the conversion of sinners and God will decide where your prayers go.

You can pray for a particular person who is gay if you want.

No prayer is ever wasted.