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cardenio
Guest
I am amazed at my own stupidity… You’re right.
And another very good point.
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RWBhbrws1
Guest
Judas was very important to God’s plan as others have mentioned. i don’t belive he is in hell. he was not necessarily evil. he was a tool of God. the salvation of the world depended on his actions.
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Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
St.Curious:
I read an article on the Orthodox view of hell which posited that the Harrowing of Hell must have irrevocably changed the nature of that place/state–the King of Glory could not have entered into it and left it unchanged. If he has shattered the gates of hell asunder, then he has blazed a path from the darkest depths to the brightest dawn. If anyone is in hell, then, it is by their own choice, it is by their own refusal to take this fiery purgatorial path of love and hope.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
I think this is an important point to remember. It’s also important to remember the Harrowing of Hell. Because this harrowing happened outside of time, I often wonder to myself if anyone destined by their own choice for hell, upon entering the infernal realm, would not see Jesus there in all of his glory saying, “Today, you can be with me in paradise. Follow me!”
I read an article on the Orthodox view of hell which posited that the Harrowing of Hell must have irrevocably changed the nature of that place/state–the King of Glory could not have entered into it and left it unchanged. If he has shattered the gates of hell asunder, then he has blazed a path from the darkest depths to the brightest dawn. If anyone is in hell, then, it is by their own choice, it is by their own refusal to take this fiery purgatorial path of love and hope.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
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InSearchOfGod
Guest
Hmmm… interesting point of view. I don’t think Jesus depended on Judas and the other sinners who crucified Him. The problem when you say these sins were part of God’s plan is that it makes it seem like the sinners didn’t have a choice, when they did, even though God and Jesus already knew what the sinners would choose.
What if no one wanted to crucify Jesus? I do not think He’d encourage it, and try to be crucified! Instead God knew what the sinners would do to Jesus, but their sins were still sins, for they still had the choice.
It’s one of those weird concepts that’s hard to understand. For example, God knows everything you will choose to do today, but you still have the choice.
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Dave_N
Guest
Why would you want to pray for the soul of a sinner who lived thousands of years ago? I think you would be better off praying for your own soul.
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jimmy
Guest
God does not force anyone to sin. God simply used what was going to happen to the advantage of mankind.
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BM5
Guest
I agree on one point. That Judas was a necessary tool for our redemption, just as Satan or Luciel is a necessary tool for the winnowing of the human race. But where I part company with some comments made is that these “tools” that God uses will not get off the hook for the evil that they do. God is Just and will reward and punish accordingly. We are soveriegn beings and have free will and will be held responsible for everything we do or don"t do. God already knows the end of us and everything else so He foresaw Judas’s choices and turned his evil to good.
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YinYangMom
Guest
And yet we have Exodus, and God’s plan with Pharoah…He tells Moses he will harden Pharoah’s heart, make him stubborn and obstinate so that he will not let His people go…in order that God may reveal to the Israelites that He is the One True God.
Exodus 4:21
21The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 7:3-5
3"But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
4"When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments.
5The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst."
Exodus 9:35
35Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.
Exodus 10:1-2, 27
1Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,
2and that you may tell in the hearing of your son, and of your grandson, how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I performed My signs among them, that you may know that I am the LORD."
27But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exodus 11:9-12
9Then the LORD said to Moses, “Pharaoh will not listen to you, so that My wonders will be multiplied in the land of Egypt.”
10Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; yet the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go out of his land.
While one would think all along that Pharoah could have, at any juncture, prevented the plagues from continuing, he didn’t because he couldn’t. Free will he had, yet God blocked him from using it - even after Moses clearly warned him of the tragedy which was about to strike - including the death of his own son and all first borns in the kingdom. All so that God could reveal Himself to His people and the Egyptians.
God wanted the people to know His will through the Exodus story so it was properly recorded for all time. Perhaps He didn’t care to have His role in Judas’ decision highlighted so that was not revealed to the writers. But God has revealed He can, and has, interfered with man’s free will, so I can no longer say with certainty that Judas could have not betrayed Jesus had he wanted to because without his role in salvation history, there would be no Resurrection.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Because the church instructs us to pray for the souls in purgatory and since we can not be certain of where ANYBODY is, there is nothing wrong in praying for him because if we pray for a soul that is already lost to the fires of hell (whether it be Judas or a close loved one), God will re-direct those prayers to where ever they will do the most good.Why would you want to pray for the soul of a sinner who lived thousands of years ago? I think you would be better off praying for your own soul.
Plus, if your prayers free a soul from purgatory, they will be grateful and pray for you in return and a prayer of a soul in heaven on your behalf is more powerful than a prayer for yourself.
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seagal
Guest
Just for the sake of argument, how do we know God didn’t ask someone before Mary and was refused? We only know about Mary because she said “yes”.
I don’t know if I believe that Judas was specifically put on this earth to betray Jesus. God sent His Son here because, knowing the nature of humans, He knew what would happen – Jesus would die. Either a friend would betray Him or His enemies would finally be able to capture Him. (In the gospels, it mentions several times when they were going to arrest Him but He eluded them because it wasn’t yet time.)
As other posters mentioned, we have no way of knowing where Judas is, but I think if someone is on your heart, then you should pray for them. After all, what could it hurt? Someone recently came to my mind who has been dead for about 15 years. I hadn’t thought about him for a long time, he wasn’t a close friend just someone I knew. I believe his name was placed on my heart for a reason, so I pray for his soul in purgatory.
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LouisvilleCards
Guest
It’s not a coincidence that Mary and Elizabeth were closely related. Plus, Mary was conceived without sin. She was created for this specific purpose, just like John the Baptist and Jesus were created for a specific purpose.
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sjangelini
Guest
Several posters, including the one who started the “Praying for Judas” thread, have implied or stated that Judas was a tool in bringing about the Passion and that he basically had no choice.
Judas always had a choice. He had the same free will that we all have. With God all things are possible; He would have found another way. I agree that it is important to remember that He died for all our sins and not because of Judas’ betrayal. Jesus loved Judas. He died for his sins too, and Judas always had a chance to say ‘yes.’
Remember, Peter denied Christ too. But Peter received the strength to be Christ’s first vicar because Peter fell on Christ’s love and mercy.
Judas always had a choice. He had the same free will that we all have. With God all things are possible; He would have found another way. I agree that it is important to remember that He died for all our sins and not because of Judas’ betrayal. Jesus loved Judas. He died for his sins too, and Judas always had a chance to say ‘yes.’
Remember, Peter denied Christ too. But Peter received the strength to be Christ’s first vicar because Peter fell on Christ’s love and mercy.
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YinYangMom
Guest
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YinYangMom
Guest
Well, we also see Judas as having been demonized by his guilt and remorse, into the madness which led him to such despair that he killed himself…not unlike suicide victims today…and the Church has taught us never to assume the victim’s last prayer nor to underestimate the tears and prayers shed by the loved ones of the victim over the years.
And again, as for the ‘he always had free will’ then how do you reconcile that with my post showing how God hardened Pharoah’s heart so that no matter how much he would have wanted to give in to Moses’ requests in order to be rid of the earlier plagues, he couldn’t? God will Pharoah to stay stubborn until after He killed the first born of all the kingdom as punishment for not letting God’s Firstborn go (Hebrews)…then he continued to make Pharoah stubborn so that He could wipe them out with the Red Sea - so that all other nations would know who the One True God was and to what lengths He would go to protect His People.
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Siena
Guest
Yin-
I think “God hardened Pharoh’s heart” was an allowance of God to stop trying to call to Pharoh. Pharoh wanted nothing to do with God, and so, in answer to this, God left him in his sin.
Same with Judas. Jesus, up to the end, tried to get Judas to come around. He never sent Judas away, or took back the job of managing their donations. Sure, as God, he knew Judas would not stop, but as the God who loved him, Jesus had to try.
I think “God hardened Pharoh’s heart” was an allowance of God to stop trying to call to Pharoh. Pharoh wanted nothing to do with God, and so, in answer to this, God left him in his sin.
Same with Judas. Jesus, up to the end, tried to get Judas to come around. He never sent Judas away, or took back the job of managing their donations. Sure, as God, he knew Judas would not stop, but as the God who loved him, Jesus had to try.
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Starsweeper
Guest
Sorry, I don’t think this is a very cogent argument. The Pharaoh and his heart have absolutely no bearing and set no precedent on Judas and his fate. It never says in the bible that Judas had to betray Jesus. Quite honestly, I’m rather appalled that people on this forum would think that Jesus would set anyone up for eternal damnation. Our Lord’s Passion would have been accomplished one way or another, but God could see into the future and into man’s hearts and saw that Judas would betray him. He loves Judas, he died for him. He desperately wanted him to return and repent, to share in the promises of Christ.
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InSearchOfGod
Guest
I can’t believe that. Perhaps there are some things lost in translation or interpretation? I’m no Bible expert, but I can not believe that God could force some one to do evil. It doesn’t make sense.
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Fr_Ambrose
Guest
Ballad of the Judas Tree
(Ruth Etchells)
In Hell there grew a Judas Tree
where Judas hanged and died
Because he could not bear to see
His master crucified.
Our Lord descended into Hell
and found his Judas there
For ever hanging on the tree
Grown from his own despair
So Jesus cut his Judas down
And took him in his arms
‘It was for this I came’ he said
'And not to do you harm.
My Father gave me twelve good men
And all of them I kept
Though one betrayed and one denied
Some fled and others slept.
In three days’ time I must return
To make the others glad
But first I had to come to Hell
And share the death you had.
My tree will grow in place of yours
Its roots lie here as well
there is no final victory
Without this soul from Hell’
So when we all condemn him
As of every traitor worst
Remember that of all his men
Our Lord forgave him first.
Sorry for resurrecting this old thread but I stumbled upon it and want to make a contribution.
There is a very great Father of the Church in the 4th century called Saint John Chrysostom who wrote that Judas went and hung himself not only out of despair over his sin of betraying our Lord but also because he had the hope that he would meet Christ in the next world and be able to beg his forgiveness. Now, whether Saint John is right or wrong, it is a very noble and generous thought on his part. I hope he was right.
(Ruth Etchells)
In Hell there grew a Judas Tree
where Judas hanged and died
Because he could not bear to see
His master crucified.
Our Lord descended into Hell
and found his Judas there
For ever hanging on the tree
Grown from his own despair
So Jesus cut his Judas down
And took him in his arms
‘It was for this I came’ he said
'And not to do you harm.
My Father gave me twelve good men
And all of them I kept
Though one betrayed and one denied
Some fled and others slept.
In three days’ time I must return
To make the others glad
But first I had to come to Hell
And share the death you had.
My tree will grow in place of yours
Its roots lie here as well
there is no final victory
Without this soul from Hell’
So when we all condemn him
As of every traitor worst
Remember that of all his men
Our Lord forgave him first.
Sorry for resurrecting this old thread but I stumbled upon it and want to make a contribution.
There is a very great Father of the Church in the 4th century called Saint John Chrysostom who wrote that Judas went and hung himself not only out of despair over his sin of betraying our Lord but also because he had the hope that he would meet Christ in the next world and be able to beg his forgiveness. Now, whether Saint John is right or wrong, it is a very noble and generous thought on his part. I hope he was right.
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Scout
Guest
Fr Ambrose said:
Fr Ambrose,
I think this is a wonderful poem. Too many times I know I forget that I am just as guilty as Judas for betraying Our Lord. Each time I choose to sin, it is betraying Our Lord just as Judas betrayed him.
Scout :tiphat:
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tjmiller
Guest
Jesus has already made clear that Judas is everlastingly lost. He said to the Father, “I have lost none of those whom you have given me - except the Son of Perdition”.
You can’t get much more damned than to be designated the Son of Perdition, by Christ Himself.
The only “anti-canonization” in history.
You can’t get much more damned than to be designated the Son of Perdition, by Christ Himself.
The only “anti-canonization” in history.
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