Praying for people who are truly evil

[KathleenElsie]

Prayers are the only ting and the greatest thing we can do in humanly impossible situations. So pray and pray more.

I pray that every soul that has done grave evil will be in heaven some day. Like the prodigal son. The one lost and then found is a cause to rejoice.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Prayers are the only ting and the greatest thing we can do in humanly impossible situations. So pray and pray more.

I pray that every soul that has done grave evil will be in heaven some day. Like the prodigal son. The one lost and then found is a cause to rejoice.

Jesus thirsts for every soul. May He be united in eternity with every one whom He loves, and rejected by none.

 

[EBSSTF4]

I didn’t say his actions were admirable; but his determination & conviction certainly are.

Hitler was very determined and had strong convictions. So does Satan.

 

[Trelow]

Hitler was very determined and had strong convictions. So does Satan.

Hitler had many admirable qualities. Darn shame he had such evil ones as well, he could have been a great man.

 

[EBSSTF4]

Hitler had many admirable qualities. Darn shame he had such evil ones as well, he could have been a great man.

Do the ends justify the means? Though I do apologize about my comments on prayers for Mr. Phelps. It is obvious he is mentally ill. He also has no regard for the emotional health or general wellness of others. His wants out weight their needs.

CCC

1929 Social justice can be obtained only in respecting the transcendent dignity of man. The person represents the ultimate end of society, which is ordered to him:

1933 This same duty extends to those who think or act differently from us. The teaching of Christ goes so far as to require the forgiveness of offenses. He extends the commandment of love, which is that of the New Law, to all enemies.39 Liberation in the spirit of the Gospel is incompatible with hatred of one’s enemy as a person, but not with hatred of the evil that he does as an enemy.

 

[VociMike]

God wants the Phelps to be with Him forever in heaven. That should be all we need to know.

 

[Walking_Home]

Aren’t we told to rebuke evil.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Hitler was very determined and had strong convictions. So does Satan.

So did St. Paul.

Hitler is dead. If you’re praying for souls most in need of God’s mercy, he’s it…although it doesn’t take much study of his life to know that there were extenuating circumstances and he may have been just plain nuts and therefore not fully responsible for his actions, horrific as they were. Those who helped him may be far more culpable than he was.

We speak of people who are still alive, though. If people with this kind of zeal are converted to do good, they can change the world for the better.

St. Paul would certainly be happy to pitch in and pray for them, I am sure of it. He would not despair of what God could yet do in them, and neither should we.

 

[FCEGM]

The good thing is that it is not our job to decide whether one’s holiness is in keeping with the gifts and graces they have been given. We only know what is between us and God, and we know that only dimly. We know with certainty, though, that we have been called to forgive, and so be forgiven ourselves.

. . .

I agree with all you’ve said, but it’s not to the point of my original post that addressed the apparent claim that objectively there is no difference between one soul and another in regard to degrees of sinfulness (evil) even though the sins be different; such a claim is patently false.

 

[FCEGM]

We can know that some actions are evil and some actions are good. If we didn’t there would be no purpose to the sacrament of confession. We can know that some actions are evil in the sense that they abrogate clearly defined standards of behavior in Catholic Tradition.

We may not be able to judge a motive with clarity but we sure as heck can determine that this or that act is good or evil.

CDL

Yes.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

I agree with all you’ve said, but it’s not to the point of my original post that addressed the apparent claim that objectively there is no difference between one soul and another in regard to degrees of sinfulness (evil) even though the sins be different; such a claim is patently false.

It is absolutely true that there are differences. This is obviously true from a plain reading of the Scriptures. There are those who will choose evil for which they are plainly culpable. That this applies to everybody does not imply that it implies equally to everybody. Nevertheless, there are none who will get into heaven on their own merit, so it is worth asking what one beggar living on the largess of a merciful benefactor can say about another.

Also, as CS Lewis pointed out, when the judgement day comes, there will be surprises. This is obviously true from Jesus’ story of the sheep and the goats. It is also obviously true that we have been cautioned about our inability to read hearts. We need to believe that.

It is our duty to point out to others when they stray. We ought to thirst for their happiness and well-being as much as God does. We know that there is no happiness and no life outside of God’s law. God doesn’t impose His law arbitrarily. It is based on the way He made us. His law is the way of life, which He desires for us because He loves us.

We ought not look down on others when they stray, though. There but for the grace of God, after all…judgement is not in keeping with the demands of gratitude for the mercy we ourselves receive.

I think you’d agree with that.

 

[havemercy]

This guy is as ridiculous as his fashion sense. Its hard to see any good in him. In fact, I see none. I see the devil.

I do pray for him.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .

I think you’d agree with that.

Absolutely!

 

[Liberalsaved]

This isn’t right. We need to constantly keep these people in our prayers. What good will come out of not doing anything but gripe about how much you dislike them?

Not griping. I simply see no good in him. I hope he finds what little good there is left before he dies. But I don’t see much hope. If he makes the attempt, more power to him. But you know, he doesn’t seem to want to find it. I, nor anyone else, can help someone who doesn’t want to be helped.

I won’t wish for anything bad to befall him. But for something better to happen to him he has to be open to change. Everyone has a dark side. I don’t dislike Phelps because he has one. I dislike him because he revels in it, he enjoys it.

 

[Liberalsaved]

There are many things about Mr. Phelps to admire. He’s definitely not lukewarm.

What if more Catholics were as passionate about their beliefs as he is?

FInd Jesus in others.

You are joking? He’s not passionate about anything except the dark joy he gets from hating people.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Not griping. I simply see no good in him. I hope he finds what little good there is left before he dies. But I don’t see much hope. If he makes the attempt, more power to him. But you know, he doesn’t seem to want to find it. I, nor anyone else, can help someone who doesn’t want to be helped.

I won’t wish for anything bad to befall him. But for something better to happen to him he has to be open to change. Everyone has a dark side. I don’t dislike Phelps because he has one. I dislike him because he revels in it, he enjoys it.

And I think it is important for Christians to say unequivocally that what this guy *does *is evil, plain and simple.

If you love the sinner, you must hate the sin, for our sins are all that can ultimately make the death of us.

As for not wanting the help, anyone in AA can tell you that, for the lucky, denial eventually wears out. Denial is much tougher when those who love you are willing to shine the light of day on what you are doing to yourself and to others. But you are right…prayer and the truth are “all” we can offer. We can’t force his eyes open.

 

[Liberalsaved]

If I may suggest?
People from Phelps’ group will be demonstrating at a military funeral in Brighton NY this weekend…A group of vets who have motrocycles will be forming a line to keep the young man’s family from seeing the hateful signs; and they will sing God Bless America over the tops of the Phelps crew’s voices.
This is a completely peaceful voluntary act of compassion by these men…Perhaps those who cannot bring themselves to pray for Fred Phelps & his followers, instead of wasting energy on anger, might like to pray for those who are working to protect the family from this madness…That all might remain peaceful, & that the family not have to see & hear this wickedness in their hour of grief…

The police will be at hand, but the aim is to keep everything dignified & peaceful as posssible for the sake of the mourners.

God bless all here.

That’s another thing that makes me unable to turn my mind toward good wishes for Phelps. He knows exactly what he’s doing in choosing funerals to picket. He knows no one will lay a hand on him, because they don’t want to disrupt the mourners.

If he was any kind of a man at all, he’d picket a military parade, and see how far his big talk gets him after he incurs the wrath of dozens upon dozens of soldiers and vets already in a patriotic furor. Instead, he picks on widows, widowers, and people in the throes of grief.

Even someone black-hearted can have a little honor. Phelps has exactly none.

In fact, I think I’ll find out his contact info. Issue him an open challenge. I have family and friends in abundance who for one reason or another are at odds with Phelps’s hate. I wonder if he’d meet me, and just me, alone, and tell me exactly what he thinks of them. No bikers or police on my end, no thuggish family on his. I’d swear not to lay a hand on him; the only fighting done would be with words.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Well, let’s see; if Mother Theresa of Calcutta were still alive on earth and ministering to the poor there’d be a whole passel of difference between her sinfulness and that of Mr. Phelps. His actions, not disconnected from the state of his soul, certainly demonstrate a level sinfulness unknown to many Saints (known and unknown) and also to many alive today who are following in the footsteps of the same.

I’m sorry you don’t understand.

If you did, it just might save your soul from torment even here while on this earth.

You are clinging to the law of sin and death, thus denying the work of Christ and consequently preventing you from being fulfilled by Him. :ehh:

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

And I think it is important for Christians to say unequivocally that what this guy *does *is evil, plain and simple.

If you love the sinner, you must hate the sin, for our sins are all that can ultimately make the death of us.

As for not wanting the help, anyone in AA can tell you that, for the lucky, denial eventually wears out. Denial is much tougher when those who love you are willing to shine the light of day on what you are doing to yourself and to others. But you are right…prayer and the truth are “all” we can offer. We can’t force his eyes open.

Why is it important to call it evil? If you call it, then you claim knowledge of it and thus convict yourself according to the same measure.

Isn’t that correct according to our theology?

The whole thing about hating the sin is a smokescreen to indulge in hatred while still claiming to forgive the person. If there is a sin, then there must be a sinner; it’s not like there is some sin that just floated in out of outer space and happened; somebody must have done it for it to be a sin, thus you cannot separate the two.

Forgiveness is a stepping stone toward the type of mindset and attitude that prevents you from seeing a sin in the first place – when you get that, you have perfect peace.

Now, can we judge them as humans and say they are destructive and awful? Yes, but not while claiming it is God who wishes us to do this. It is a personal choice because if you claim somebody is a sinner then it holds you bound in the same way you hold them bound.

Alan

 

[FCEGM]

I’m sorry you don’t understand.

If you did, it just might save your soul from torment even here while on this earth.

You are clinging to the law of sin and death, thus denying the work of Christ and consequently preventing you from being fulfilled by Him. :ehh:

Alan

This from one who can’t discern the difference between Phelps and Mother Theresa. Thanks, but I’ll take my spiritual direction from someone who knows what he’s talking about.