Praying for the Dead, a good thing or a bad thing?

[hockeyfan]

Doesn’t Ecclesiastes 9 say that the dead “know not anything”? How does this relate?

That was the Old Testament. When Jesus was risen from the dead, he conquered death. In John 6:49-50, Jesus said, “Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.” This passage usualy is used for Communion, but here Jesus establishes a difference with what was, death, and what is now, life after death.

So yes, your interpretation for the Ecclesiastes reading is accurate, in the context of a pre-messiah Judiasm.

 

[ufamtobie]

I do not object to praying for the dead – in fact, it is done in the course of a funeral service and at graveside.From the Service for the Burial of the Dead in the Lutheran Book of Worship:

At the end of the service in the church - and, at graveside –

It seems to me, to some extent, that having committed the deceased to God’s care any further prayers would show a sense of doubt that God has heard and will act on the prayers already offered.

Pastor Gary, you are contradicting yourself. How So? Well, if you believe in praying once for the dead at the Funeral then why pray for the Dead at the Graveside are you having doubts that God did not hear your prayer at the funeral for the dead?

Pastor Gary, Also, How many times have you prayed for the living such as your congregation, for your parents, wife, brother, sister, son, daughter, friends, enemies, etc… “having committed the Living to God’s care any further prayers would show a sense of doubt that God has heard and will act on the prayers already offered.” Now Pastor does the underline above make sense? No! It does not there for it does not make sense for the dead, the dead need our prayers to, if you say no the dead don’t, then why bother even praying for the deceased at the funeral or at the graveside, to speed the deceased into heaven.

Pastor Gary, Have you ever thought of this: perhaps the deceased needs alot of prayers to speed them into heaven, like us who are living need also a lot of prayers to be saved?

Pastor Gary, praying for the living is a constant prayer, and by doing so is not having a sense of doubts in God not hearing your prayer the first time, and so it is with the dead. Amen

I grant that this doesn’t exactly deal with the issue of purgatory although the prayer that God “receive him/her into the arms of your mercy, into the blessed rest of everlasting peace, and into the glorious company of the saints in light” could be heard as a prayer to speed the deceased into heaven. Just a few thoughts from the Lutheran side.

Pastor Gary, you say above: “Speed the Deceased into heaven” from what, if not Purgatory?

Pastor Gary, is it true that you do believe that there is a place, a state, that the soul can be (at) in order to speed that soul into heaven? If you do, then, Just give it a name and that name is Purgatory. Don’t be afraid by giving it, the name of Purgatory will make you into a Catholic. Far from it, there is alot more Grace you need to be a good Catholic.

Ufam Tobie

 

[gcnuss]

Pastor Gary, you say above: “Speed the Deceased into heaven” from what, if not Purgatory?

Pastor Gary, is it true that you do believe that there is a place, a state, that the soul can be (at) in order to speed that soul into heaven? If you do, then, Just give it a name and that name is Purgatory. Don’t be afraid by giving it, the name of Purgatory will make you into a Catholic. Far from it, there is alot more Grace you need to be a good Catholic.

My brother in Christ,

I have to confess that I don’t know what the timeframe is for a soul to exit the earthly body and to enter into heaven. God himself is in control of that. To be sure, the concept of Purgatory is one way to explain the journey. Yet, there seems to be no absolute answer to what Purgatory is or how long it lasts. Of course, in the heavenly kingdom time is not likely to be as we know it.

Just to ease your mind, I’m not afraid that using the name “Purgatory” will turn me into a Catholic. There are much larger hurdles that I would have to cross. However, to speak of Purgatory is to speak of a concept of the afterlife that I don’t fully agree with, at least as it is taught within the Catholic Church. I would agree that nothing unclean will enter Heaven – what I have not come to accept is a definitive doctrine of how or when the necessary cleansing takes place.

 

[Stephen_W]

That was the Old Testament. When Jesus was risen from the dead, he conquered death. In John 6:49-50, Jesus said, “Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.” This passage usualy is used for Communion, but here Jesus establishes a difference with what was, death, and what is now, life after death.

So yes, your interpretation for the Ecclesiastes reading is accurate, in the context of a pre-messiah Judiasm.

But isn’t the argument for praying for the dead made (largely) from 2 Macabees 12 (Old Testament)? I know there can not be a contridiction, but to dismiss any verse on the bases that “that was OT” could be used to support or oppose just about any position. could you please explain. Thank you

 

[hockeyfan]

But isn’t the argument for praying for the dead made (largely) from 2 Macabees 12 (Old Testament)? I know there can not be a contridiction, but to dismiss any verse on the bases that “that was OT” could be used to support or oppose just about any position. could you please explain. Thank you

First off, I have to clear up a misunderstanding on what I said. I did not say that all Old Testament readings are to be dismissed because the New Testament nullifies them. In the context of what I said, I showed a Gospel reading where Jesus talks about some of the changes that were happening with Jesus’s life, death, and resurrection. I would oppose any person who wanted to dismiss any verse from the Old Testament. The Old Testament is context, and necessary for understanding the prophesies and life of Jesus.

On the point about 2 Maccabees, I usually don’t use it to debate with Protestants. Being as I do not know where you stand on the Deuterocanonical books, I did as I usually do when having a theological conversation with Protestants, I used a book that I know for sure we both accept.

One more thing, as to show some consistency on my views, and show you a OT reading that is not nullified, I will go back to 2 Maccabees. (Seeing as you are aware of it, and cited it yourself) 2 Maccabees 12:44-46

“for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.”

In the reading, the author talks about the fallen having to rise again. That is why in the Apostles Creed it says that Jesus descended to the dead. Three days later he rose and conquered death. In 2 Maccabees, it hits on the Ecclesiastes point about the dead not knowing anything, but it also makes a point to the future when Jesus comes back from the dead for the salvation of the world.

Does that make sense?

 

[ufamtobie]

My brother in Christ,

I have to confess that I don’t know what the timeframe is for a soul to exit the earthly body and to enter into heaven. God himself is in control of that. To be sure, the concept of Purgatory is one way to explain the journey. Yet, there seems to be no absolute answer to what Purgatory is or how long it lasts. Of course, in the heavenly kingdom time is not likely to be as we know it.

Just to ease your mind, I’m not afraid that using the name “Purgatory” will turn me into a Catholic. There are much larger hurdles that I would have to cross. However, to speak of Purgatory is to speak of a concept of the afterlife that I don’t fully agree with, at least as it is taught within the Catholic Church. I would agree that nothing unclean will enter Heaven – what I have not come to accept is a definitive doctrine of how or when the necessary cleansing takes place.

Hi Pastor Gary, I have to confess I don’t know the time frame one has to stay in Purgatory myself only Jesus Christ knows, I just hope it is short

Pastor Gary today I went to a Catholic Church to visit Our Lord in the Tabernacle but before entering the Church I realized I was not dressed properly I was wearing a tank top and shorts I knelt down at the Back of the Church for I felt that I could not got o the front where our Lord is in the tabernacle, call me strange but that’s how I felt. The same must be for those die in the state of grace but yet have venial sins that don’t lead to death therefore Purgatory.

Pastor, What Hurdles? Jesus Christ left His Church in charge of us to guides us we must believe in that Church.

Temporal punishment

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him “to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow” until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the “land of promise” (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God’s enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

Ufam Tobie

 

[Stephen_W]

First off, I have to clear up a misunderstanding on what I said. I did not say that all Old Testament readings are to be dismissed because the New Testament nullifies them. In the context of what I said, I showed a Gospel reading where Jesus talks about some of the changes that were happening with Jesus’s life, death, and resurrection. I would oppose any person who wanted to dismiss any verse from the Old Testament. The Old Testament is context, and necessary for understanding the prophesies and life of Jesus.

On the point about 2 Maccabees, I usually don’t use it to debate with Protestants. Being as I do not know where you stand on the Deuterocanonical books, I did as I usually do when having a theological conversation with Protestants, I used a book that I know for sure we both accept.

One more thing, as to show some consistency on my views, and show you a OT reading that is not nullified, I will go back to 2 Maccabees. (Seeing as you are aware of it, and cited it yourself) 2 Maccabees 12:44-46

“for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.”

In the reading, the author talks about the fallen having to rise again. That is why in the Apostles Creed it says that Jesus descended to the dead. Three days later he rose and conquered death. In 2 Maccabees, it hits on the Ecclesiastes point about the dead not knowing anything, but it also makes a point to the future when Jesus comes back from the dead for the salvation of the world.

Does that make sense?

Okay, so if I’m understanding your viewpoint, prior to Jesus’ death and resurrection the dead knew not anything. Since Jesus descended to the dead and rose again they are now free to hear prayers?

 

[joe370]

Hello, my good griend.

Praying for the dead is different than praying to the dead, but on both points;

Jon

That’s a good point. Just as we don’t pray to the saints in heaven, but rather we ask them to pray for us. That, like the point you raised, often gets confused in certain protestant circles, leading them to think that we somehow go to the saints, or to Mary in lieu of God. It took me a long time to convince my niece that catholics don’t do that…

 

[joe370]

Okay, so if I’m understanding your viewpoint, prior to Jesus’ death and resurrection the dead knew not anything. Since Jesus descended to the dead and rose again they are now free to hear prayers?

Seems theologically reasonable. After all, didn’t Jesus’ work on the cross and eventual return to heaven, open up those pearly gates for all those willing to pick up their cross and follow Him into eternity?

 

[hockeyfan]

Okay, so if I’m understanding your viewpoint, prior to Jesus’ death and resurrection the dead knew not anything. Since Jesus descended to the dead and rose again they are now free to hear prayers?

You seem to have the basic idea.

 

[Stephen_W]

You seem to have the basic idea.

Okay, so if support for praying for the dead is found in 2 Maccabees 12, where can I find scriptual support for asking saints to pray for us?

 

[ufamtobie]

Doesn’t Ecclesiastes 9 say that the dead “know not anything”? How does this relate?

Stephen,

The Dead do know, Have you not read Luke 16: 22-25 The dead rich man in hell below could see Lazarus in the arms of Abraham… The dead rich man cried out to Father Abraham so that Lazarus could dip his finger in water too cool his tongue… the dead do know:thumbsup: Not only do the dead know things, they can talk and suffer…Actually the rich man in hades was praying to Father Abraham, however his prayer to cool his tongue was heard but not answered.

Luke 16: 22-25 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s embrace. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 'In his torment in Hades he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off with Lazarus in his embrace. 24 So he cried out, “Father Abraham, pity me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in these flames.” 25 Abraham said, "My son, remember that during your life you had your fill of good things, just as Lazarus his fill of bad. Now he is being comforted here while you are in agony.

Ufam Tobie

 

[Stephen_W]

Stephen,

The Dead do know, Have you not read Luke 16: 22-25 The dead rich man in hell below could see Lazarus in the arms of Abraham… The dead rich man cried out to Father Abraham so that Lazarus could dip his finger in water too cool his tongue… the dead do know:thumbsup: Not only do the dead know things, they can talk and suffer…Actually the rich man in hades was praying to Father Abraham, however his prayer to cool his tongue was heard but not answered.

Luke 16: 22-25 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s embrace. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 'In his torment in Hades he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off with Lazarus in his embrace. 24 So he cried out, “Father Abraham, pity me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in these flames.” 25 Abraham said, "My son, remember that during your life you had your fill ofagood things, just as Lazarus his fill of bad. Now he is being comforted here while you are in agony.

Ufam Tobie

So is the writer of Ecclesiastes perhaps speaking of the mortal body of the deceased?

In the example you gave, we see 1 dead man (soul/spirit) praying to/seeing/hearing another dead man. The question never was if the departed could interact with another departed, but if they can with those still in ths mortal realm. I am trying to make sense of the practice of praying to the dead, at the same time trying to figure out where I got the idea you couldn’t.

 

[hockeyfan]

Okay, so if support for praying for the dead is found in 2 Maccabees 12, where can I find scriptual support for asking saints to pray for us?

The issue here is that you are using a sola scriptura argument with someone who does not accept that doctrine. That being said, the only way I can make a point against that question is to start off by going after sola scriptura.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:15 (NAB), it says…

“Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.”

As was established earlier in this thread, when Jesus rose from the dead, it changed the meaning of death Ecclesiastes point. So, it is possible that the dead can hear our prayers, based upon 2 Maccabees, now. It is a very old tradition to pray for the dead. Here are some examples from some of our early church fathers.

St. Clement of Alexandria, 208 A.D. (Miscellanies 7:12)

“In this way he is always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping;and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [In Prayer]”

Origen, 233 A.D. (On Prayer 11)

“But not [Jesus]the high priest alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels… as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” **

St. Ephraim the Syrian, 370 A.D. (Commentary on Mark)

“You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that we may love him.”

Now I have established sacred tradition can be acceptable, even in its oral form with the 2 Thessalonians reading. With those three quotes from early church fathers, I hope that explanation is acceptable.

One more thing, if you have an issue with my condemning sola scriptura, I would be happy to debate that topic on another thread. There are all sorts of threads on that matter.

 

[Stephen_W]

The issue here is that you are using a sola scriptura argument with someone who does not accept that doctrine. That being said, the only way I can make a point against that question is to start off by going after sola scriptura.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:15 (NAB), it says…

“Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.”

As was established earlier in this thread, when Jesus rose from the dead, it changed the meaning of death Ecclesiastes point. So, it is possible that the dead can hear our prayers, based upon 2 Maccabees, now. It is a very old tradition to pray for the dead. Here are some examples from some of our early church fathers.

St. Clement of Alexandria, 208 A.D. (Miscellanies 7:12)

Origen, 233 A.D. (On Prayer 11)

St. Ephraim the Syrian, 370 A.D. (Commentary on Mark)

Now I have established sacred tradition can be acceptable, even in its oral form with the 2 Thessalonians reading. With those three quotes from early church fathers, I hope that explanation is acceptable.

One more thing, if you have an issue with my condemning sola scriptura, I would be happy to debate that topic on another thread. There are all sorts of threads on that matter.

Thank you. That is the best explaination anyone has given me. I really am only seeking to understand. By the way, my theological roots are in the Anabaptist tradition which are not historically strong sola scriptura proponents.

 

[hockeyfan]

Thank you. That is the best explaination anyone has given me. I really am only seeking to understand. By the way, my theological roots are in the Anabaptist tradition which are not historically strong sola scriptura proponents.

I am glad I could help. Duely noted on your not being a big sola scriptura proponent.

 

[Bezant]

A good thing, of course.

 

[hockeyfan]

I am trying to make sense of the practice of praying to the dead, at the same time trying to figure out where I got the idea you couldn’t.

Now I have a respectful question. Do you believe that you can’t pray for the dead? Why or why not? If not, is it because of the Ecclesiastes quote?

 

[Stephen_W]

Now I have a respectful question. Do you believe that you can’t pray for the dead? Why or why not? If not, is it because of the Ecclesiastes quote?

I have always been taught once someone has died thier fate is sealed, Heaven or Hell. We would never presume to know with certainty what someone’s final destination was/is, but without the option of Purgatory, what is the need to pray for the dead?

As to praying to the dead, well that was a new thought. I was trying to find some support or rebuttal to the practice. When I asked our ministers about it, I was pointed to 1 Samuel 28, where Saul made inquiry of the witch, seeking Samuel (no need to explain the difference in situation, I’ve figured that out). “Besides”, was the reply, “We have Jesus as our perfect mediator, what need have we for any other.” To my bishop, that is the end of the discussion.

The quotes you gave were very helpful. I intend to read more of what the ECF had to say on the subject.

 

[hockeyfan]

I have always been taught once someone has died thier fate is sealed, Heaven or Hell. We would never presume to know with certainty what someone’s final destination was/is, but without the option of Purgatory, what is the need to pray for the dead?

As to praying to the dead, well that was a new thought. I was trying to find some support or rebuttal to the practice. When I asked our ministers about it, I was pointed to 1 Samuel 28, where Saul made inquiry of the witch, seeking Samuel (no need to explain the difference in situation, I’ve figured that out). “Besides”, was the reply, “We have Jesus as our perfect mediator, what need have we for any other.” To my bishop, that is the end of the discussion.

The quotes you gave were very helpful. I intend to read more of what the ECF had to say on the subject.

Thanks. I am glad you said that you don’t presume to know where a person went. That is a issue I run into sometimes with some protestants. When I was at my friends funeral, they kept saying Kevin was in heaven. As much as I would like to think that he is, I feel that saying that is making themselves God. It sounds like you don’t do that, and I am glad.

Thanks for sharing what you were told, I did find it interesting.