Praying for the Dead Proved from Scripture

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Hello James, Why would God want to make getting to heaven more difficult for the poor? It makes absolutely no sense to say I can buy my way out of a purgatory which I do not believe exists in the first place. It was and is a money making venture and nothing else. That is my opinion.NLM
To take it a step farther, If the catholic church had an excess of grace why dont they give it freely? Mat 18:8 Freely you have received, freely give.

As far as praying to the dead good luck finding scripture to support it, every new age philosophy along with scores of others make every effort to topple the bible. A Course In Miracles one of the larger more popular new age doctrines, promoted by Opera on TV like to reference Jesus as a model but they never listen or mention His words, except for maybe “the kingdom of heaven is within you”. Just as the others “non believer and new agers” do, the bible is nonsense to them. To me its no surprise that non believers minimize the bible but as far as I can tell, this forum is full of catholics that at every point also profess the bible is useless beyond simply pointing to the authority of its church and magistrate. Its useless without the church to tell you what it says, its also repeated many times that its incomplete. It looks to me like the catholic church and non Jesus believers both have a common goal. Get rid of the bible.

I think I’ll start a thread. 👍
 
Hello James, Why would God want to make getting to heaven more difficult for the poor? It makes absolutely no sense to say I can buy my way out of a purgatory which I do not believe exists in the first place. It was and is a money making venture and nothing else. That is my opinion.NLM
He doesn’t NLM - “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.”

Your opinion has no basis in historical fact. General indulgences are free and always have been. Donating alms to the church has always been a scriptural practice. The Church can not “get into the heads” of every person to discern “WHY” they are donating - she just graciously accepts the gift and uses it to serve God’s people. If some wealthy imagine that they can “buy” heaven - that is their business and their error.

What happened in Luther’s time was the poor were played by a demagogue who knew the ignorance and unsavvy peasants were naturally inclined to believe that the wealthy were “gaming the system” and buying themselves into heaven on their labors in a way they could not compete with. You must remember that these were dirt-poor and very illiterate and unsophisticated common people who were ignorant and full of envy of the wealthy and resentful of what they IMAGINED wealth could buy. They felt like they could not compete.

Every Catholic could gain FREE indulgence of some level every single day of the year by simply going to church and praying, or making the sign of the cross. It was also quite common for Christians to make pilgrimages to holy places to gain plenary indulgences. As well there were regular feast days such as All Souls and All Saints Day where indulgences could be gained with minor prayers and devotionals.

Luther simply fabricated a conflict that did not really exist except for in the minds of the peasants. He wanted a state controlled church independent of Rome since he did not like the idea that hard working Germans were exporting money to support Romes infrastructure – who he imagined were squandering the money. And to be sure there were some excesses - but in Rome the culture believed in building grand places of worship and paying for elaborate arts and statues to give glory to God and to make a pleasant setting for worship. Luther preferred austerity and he also preferred his own private ideas on theology — which under it all was the true motive for all his complaints.

How ironic that Luther incites an uprising by the class that always suffers the most in all revolutions - the lower peasant class. Then realizes they can’t win & decisively supports the lords and nobles and orders that the peasants be slaughtered. 10’s of thousands were butchered. Luther was reckless and did not consider in the least what the cost of his opinions and personal-will would do to the lives of ultimately millions of Christians. He wanted only to impose his immediate temporal will under a veneer of benevolence that was masking a monster of pure ego, hubris and mental illness. How ironic that the man who was so apparently outraged that the wealthy were donating money to the church and thinking they were furthering themselves for heaven would himself accept as a wedding gift the same Catholic Monastery he lived in as a monk but was stolen from the Catholic Church in the take over he helped engineer. It was given to him for his personal “house” (like a Lord) for him and his new ex-nun wife to sire children in.

So your opinion is without historical merit and is groundless. There is very little money made on indulgences. Donations are made by wealthy all the time - for their own personal reasons. So get past indulgences and complain about why the wealthy give so much to their churches and ask God why He told us that alms giving is good. Read your bible and you fill find that giving alms is highly recommended and praised.

James
 
James, I have no problem at all with individuals giving to the church to further His work on this earth.I try and give 10% as is asked.This practice is found in the Bible. Here is what I have a problem with. Let’s remember we are discussing praying for the dead. I remember the days when following an individual’s death, if the family could afford it, arrangements were made to have a mass said for that dead person 30 consecutive uninterrupted days by the same priest. These masses were usually said by a monk or another member of a religious order.The belief was that the dearly departed would get to heaven faster if this was done. In other words, if the family could afford this "special"type of mass then the person who had died would benefit. The poor in this case would have to “sit it out” in purgatory until regular daily or weekly masses could be said for him. Does this not create a class difference based on money?I believe we get into heaven by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal saviour and by living a life which resembles His as much as possible.Dollars do not have anything to do with it. I will never be asked by anyone when I get to heaven the dollar amount I gave to the church. NLM
 
James, I have no problem at all with individuals giving to the church to further His work on this earth.I…
I am a cradle Catholic and I do not know a single Catholic who has ever paid to have private masses said for their deceased family member for 30 days.

In the middle ages it was common for a wealthy land owner or Nobles to sponsor an ordained priest/monk etc. to live on their estate to teach their children the faith as much as it was a to teach them how to read and write since the more educated and intellectual class were the clergy - who were often fluent in Latin/arts etc. These were given a free room and board like a hired servant and a stipend for small amount of personal effects - some might even have been given horses for transportation etc. as part of the deal. But most of these priests and especially the monks were very austere – often donating what surplus they had to the poor. Many noblemen shared their clergy with the local peasants to give mass and spiritual advise and give absolution. Was this “purchasing” one’s way into heaven? NO - it was a mutually beneficial means by which the church was integral with the community. Might some wealthy nobles who had paid servants assign tasks to pray for their family members before God’s altar when they were not attending to other affairs? Most assuredly - and no doubt this was resented by some peasants who were themselves too busy working the fields of the nobles and who were spiteful that these men could afford to gain prayers through paid servants. Was this unfair or evil?

As for saying novenas (9 days) and 30 day’s of continuous prayers and masses for fee - yes this goes on even today. Most just sign up with religious orders for a perpetual daily masses. Do you know what the fee is? It is typically an outrageous donation of $25 or $100 for life time masses. :rolleyes:

Here is a religious order that does this (Mass Cards from Society of the Little Flower - Carmelites (St. Therese of Lisieux)) They send out a high-quality mass-card as a remembrance to the deceased survivors as a comforting keepsake to remind them of the masses. The small fee offsets the costs of running the religious order - who give up everything in life to serve God’s people & help the poor. Is that abuse and holding someone back from heaven???

Also, EVERY Catholic parish in the world offers daily masses with intentions to the deceased - the fee is a suggested donation of $5. HUGE huh? It offsets the cost of putting the person’s name in the prayer books and bulletins. Indigent are given free mass intentions - the donation waived with a smile and a blessing ( but most priests or church staff will toss in a blind donation out of their own pockets).

You Protestants are all coming from a very paranoid and suspicious tradition over the over-stated few abuses. You are spewing ancient polemics that were widely propagandized through the weapon of the Protestants using the new “printing press”. In essence you all are still stepping on these old traps set down like land-mines over 500 years ago by spiteful men who hated The Church – envious of her power and influence. The Church used to be so respected that we were quite independent of the State before your forefathers rebelled to give power to the state – only then to have to flee the state’s tyranny and start if all over again in the USA. When claiming indulgence abuse never forget that this country was founded originally by Protestants fleeing the tyranny of Protestant empowered State rulers and secular heads of the Protestants Church (e.g. the King of England). It’s pretty amazing for us Catholics to watch you all still moan about indulgences while being ignorant of actual history and while in this current historical secular context we arrive at through Protestantism. So stop parroting the old worn polemics started by men now long dead – many probably now in hell for spreading these calumnies and lies.

You also need to remember that in purgatory there is NO TIME - it is a STATE in Eternity. Indulgences lesson their suffering as we empathize with them though a spiritual charitable act. Christians are required to be charitable to our neighbors - those who die are still very much our neighbors and deserving of our charity. You need to also remember that our prayers are completely subject to God’s will. There is no way to “game the system”. God is not mocked. If God does not approve of our prayer intentions He might elect to give it to a more needful soul - perhaps a soul who has no one to pray for them. All we can be confident of is the certainty that NO PRAYER ever goes wasted. God will use our prayers and intentions to their highest and best use. There is an economy of grace and it pleases Him that we empathize ourselves with those He loves and has deemed worthy of eternal beatitude. In return we have confidence too that those who we help promote to heaven will show eternal gratitude and pray for us before God’s altar 24/7.

Try to get past the old and tired polemical view of Catholic practice and see the beauty of sharing prayers for each other here on earth and with those departed. There is nothing in the practice of indulgences that is diabolical and in fact it is a wonderful gift from God.

So to answer your question:** Does this not create a class difference based on money?**.

NO - money has nothing to do with it - it is the thoughts/intentions and the spiritual state of the person that desires to help another that matter. Any of us can pray at any moment of the day (or go to mass) for a loved one and if we are in good grace God WILL hear us and will listen and help those we pray for in some way. If they are no longer in a condition of “need” (already in heaven or in hell) then He will apply those prayers in a way we would most desire as an alternative given His perfect knowledge.

There is also a strange and perverse Protestant tradition of associating wealth with evil. This is a man-made fear & false theology. Abraham and David were given MUCH WEALTH as a blessing for being upright and pleasing to God. Wealth therefor can be a means by which God permits some to help more people - only abuses & fixations on wealth become evil. Is it unfair that some people are more holy and devoted and disciplined than others to have their prayers answered more quickly than others? Is having more grace than another “unfair” to the poor sinners who are disgraced through their own irresponsible carelessness? :rolleyes:

Did God create a spirital “class” for favoring Catholic St. Mary over all other woman?

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women. 😉

James
 
James, my christian brother. Let me start by saying I am also a " cradle catholic". I am 57 years old and was a catholic for 51 of those years. I know of what I speak. I was a member of a religious order who did offer 30 consecutive days where one of our priests would offer mass for your departed loved one for the cost of $150.00. They were 30 low masses. The particular monastery I lived in had 12 to 15 priests so you do the math as to the income brought in DAILY by offering this service. So, please do not tell me this did not exist. $150.00 was a lot of money in the 70’s and for some even today is unattainable.
Your historical recount of the middle ages, in my estimation ,speaks of a “fee for service” which is not much different from giving 10% to support the work of God on this earth.
I am not," spewing ancient polemics" nor do I speak of 500 years ago. This practice existed as recently as the mid to late 70’s and if one requested that a particular priest in our monastery say mass for one particular person for 30 consecutive days it would be done, upon payment of the fee.
I am not " parroting the old worn polemis started by men now long dead" I am very much alive. Wether these men are in hell or not is not up to us to say as the Bible is quite clear that we are not to judge.
My issue is this. The moment I die I will be judged. I will go to heaven or hell and that will be decided at that moment. I will go to heaven based on decisions I made and how I lived my life NOT because others prayed for me perhaps years after I died. I asked a priest one day about this very issue. He answered that yes, I would indeed be judged at the time of my death but God in His infinite wisdom can see at that same moment all the masses and prayers which would be offered for the repose of my soul for years to come and that He would factor those into His final decision as to where I would spend eternity. How lame is that ? Many heard this explanation as we were standing in a funeral home at the time. The reason I asked the question was that people were buying mass cards by the dozen for the repose of the deceased, a 92 years old lady.
It did not make sense to me then and still does not. It is not surprising so many of us have looked elsewhere to live out our Christianity. Yes, money is absolutely vital to the running of any church organization. It is necessary to do His work and to save the unsaved. But to offer it to save an individual who has already died just does not make sense.That is the opinion of a former catholic and very happy protestant. NLM
 
James, my christian brother. Let me start by saying I am also a " cradle catholic". I am 57 years old and was a catholic for 51 of those years. I know of what I speak. I was a member of a religious order who did offer 30 consecutive days where one of our priests would offer mass for your departed loved one for the cost of $150.00. They were 30 low masses. The particular monastery I lived in had 12 to 15 priests so you do the math as to the income brought in DAILY by offering this service. So, please do not tell me this did not exist. $150.00 was a lot of money in the 70’s and for some even today is unattainable.
Your historical recount of the middle ages, in my estimation ,speaks of a “fee for service” which is not much different from giving 10% to support the work of God on this earth.
I am not," spewing ancient polemics" nor do I speak of 500 years ago. This practice existed as recently as the mid to late 70’s and if one requested that a particular priest in our monastery say mass for one particular person for 30 consecutive days it would be done, upon payment of the fee.
I am not " parroting the old worn polemis started by men now long dead" I am very much alive. Wether these men are in hell or not is not up to us to say as the Bible is quite clear that we are not to judge.
My issue is this. The moment I die I will be judged. I will go to heaven or hell and that will be decided at that moment. I will go to heaven based on decisions I made and how I lived my life NOT because others prayed for me perhaps years after I died. I asked a priest one day about this very issue. He answered that yes, I would indeed be judged at the time of my death but God in His infinite wisdom can see at that same moment all the masses and prayers which would be offered for the repose of my soul for years to come and that He would factor those into His final decision as to where I would spend eternity. How lame is that ? Many heard this explanation as we were standing in a funeral home at the time. The reason I asked the question was that people were buying mass cards by the dozen for the repose of the deceased, a 92 years old lady.
It did not make sense to me then and still does not. It is not surprising so many of us have looked elsewhere to live out our Christianity. Yes, money is absolutely vital to the running of any church organization. It is necessary to do His work and to save the unsaved. But to offer it to save an individual who has already died just does not make sense.That is the opinion of a former catholic and very happy protestant. NLM
So do you not believe in praying to the dead at all? I have been to many different Catholic churches and have never seen people pay money to have a mass or to buy mass cards… I am just wondering if this issue or money is one of the main reasons you are no longer Catholic… Or if you do not believe in many of the different beliefs of the Catholic Chuch? (You have already stated you dont believe in purgatory, indulgences, maybe praying to the dead??) I think that the Catholic Church has done some things in the past involving money, and definitely different things when Luthers time was around. I think all of this relates to sometimes being govermentally run, or where you were located maybe?
 
No, I do not believe in praying for the dead. Remember what happened on the cross the day Jesus died? He said to the thief," Today you will be with me in paradise". There is no misinterpreting what He said. The thief through the grace of God, nothing else, went straight to heaven when he died. He would have had much time to spend in this purgatory. We know that from the reason he was being executed.No one was left having to pray to help him out of purgatory.The thief made an act of faith and accepted Jesus for who He was when he said, " Remember me when you are in your paradise. He knew and accepted Jesus at that moment. THAT is how we enter the kingdom of heaven NOT because others pray for us for years after we have died and have been judged.
How do you think churches survive if not through the fund raising aspect of parishioners paying to have a mass said? If you are ever present at a funeral home when an elderly catholic person dies, just ask a family member how many mass cards were purchased in memory of the deceased. I worked in the funeral industry and trust me, there were literally thousands of dollars brought to the local catholic church on a regular basis.Please do not confuse this as my not wanting to financially support my or any church.I believe in giving 10% back to the church for it to operate and do it’s work.
Money is not the only reason I left the catholic church but it was one of them.I could no longer accept some of the fundamental beliefs of the church. The infailliability of the Pope, and the ones you listed. Limbo I could not accept. To say an innocent little baby would NEVER see the face of God because he died, through no fault of his own before being baptised seems VERY severe to me. After all, even those who had sinned and were in purgatory had a chance through the prayers of others but those small infants could not be " prayed"out. What kind of God would punish a child that way? Not my God.I suppose the most difficult one for me was the transubstantiation of the elements at the mass.
Why must everyone keep bringing up Luther? That was then this is now. What I am speaking of is recent history and/or current practice.I found it interesting that seasoned catholics seem to be so unaware of so many practices within the church. You have never heard of paying for a mass or a mass card and James had never heard of the Gregorian Thirty. I am not making these things up folks. They are VERY real AND very current. If you look on the internet for Gregorian Thirty, you will find the explanation AND a retired priest who CURRENTLY offers this service …for a fee. NLM
 
No, I do not believe in praying for the dead. Remember what happened on the cross the day Jesus died? He said to the thief," Today you will be with me in paradise". There is no misinterpreting what He said. The thief through the grace of God, nothing else, went straight to heaven when he died. He would have had much time to spend in this purgatory. We know that from the reason he was being executed.No one was left having to pray to help him out of purgatory.The thief made an act of faith and accepted Jesus for who He was when he said, " Remember me when you are in your paradise. He knew and accepted Jesus at that moment. THAT is how we enter the kingdom of heaven NOT because others pray for us for years after we have died and have been judged.
How do you think churches survive if not through the fund raising aspect of parishioners paying to have a mass said? If you are ever present at a funeral home when an elderly catholic person dies, just ask a family member how many mass cards were purchased in memory of the deceased. I worked in the funeral industry and trust me, there were literally thousands of dollars brought to the local catholic church on a regular basis.Please do not confuse this as my not wanting to financially support my or any church.I believe in giving 10% back to the church for it to operate and do it’s work.
Money is not the only reason I left the catholic church but it was one of them.I could no longer accept some of the fundamental beliefs of the church. The infailliability of the Pope, and the ones you listed. Limbo I could not accept. To say an innocent little baby would NEVER see the face of God because he died, through no fault of his own before being baptised seems VERY severe to me. After all, even those who had sinned and were in purgatory had a chance through the prayers of others but those small infants could not be " prayed"out. What kind of God would punish a child that way? Not my God.I suppose the most difficult one for me was the transubstantiation of the elements at the mass.
Why must everyone keep bringing up Luther? That was then this is now. What I am speaking of is recent history and/or current practice.I found it interesting that seasoned catholics seem to be so unaware of so many practices within the church. You have never heard of paying for a mass or a mass card and James had never heard of the Gregorian Thirty. I am not making these things up folks. They are VERY real AND very current. If you look on the internet for Gregorian Thirty, you will find the explanation AND a retired priest who CURRENTLY offers this service …for a fee. NLM
My grandma just died a month and 1/2 ago. She was 77 an “elder”… She was Catholic, and we never spent thousands of dollars or even one dollar on mass cards for her. My parents purchased prayer cards for her, which were for the people coming to see her at the wake had the opportunity to take one.
The part you discuss about a baby, parents can still have a baby baptized after it has died. My cousin gave birth to a still-born baby and had it baptized. If Catholics know that is a belief, then they will have the baby baptized. I do agree with you that it does seem harsh to have a baby go to Hell for that reason… Here is some new coverage on Pope Benedict changing the rules on that:
abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/national_world&id=5230555

Sometimes things have to change with time. That rule was made a long time ago, before people were having abortions and such. There is no way to really baptize a baby that has been aborted either. Therefore, it makes sense to say that children are born in a “state of grace” or something of sorts.

Everyone has their own beliefs and their own thoughts on things. Do you believe that through faith alone you will go to heaven, despite the fact that you may be in sin when you die? (Faith with or without works as well)
 
First let me say that if I am correct, the catholic church believes that non-baptised infants have inherited the original sin so are in a state of sin NOT in a state of grace if not baptised. I am not certain if baptism after the baby has died is still valid for the child in the catholic way of thinking. If nothing else, it would comfort the parents so there is worth in that.I do not believe one must be baptised to go to heaven.Baptism is a public acknowledgement that I have chosen Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and that I will do my best to live the life I describe further down in this message.
I would suggest that the Pope has had to change his position on this issue because people just can’t buy into such a harsh belief.
When Jesus was asked by the apostles where He was going and how they could follow Him his response was that He is THE way and the ONLY way. I believe I will go to heaven because I have chosen to have Jesus as my personal Lord and Saviour. Yes, I must confess and ask for forgiveness for my sins BUT not to another human, to the one I have sinned against.God Himself. I must resolve to do better in the future.
I must also make every effort to treat my neighbors as He would expect me to and to live a life which resembles that lived by Jesus Himself while on this earth. After all, He spent time with us showing us how to live our lives so they are pleasing to God.NLM
 
First let me say that if I am correct, the catholic church believes that non-baptised infants have inherited the original sin so are in a state of sin NOT in a state of grace. I am not certain if baptism after the baby has died is still valid for the child in the catholic way of thinking. If nothing else, it would comfort the parents so there is worth in that.I do not believe one must be baptised to go to heaven.Baptism is a public acknowledgement that I have chosen Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and that I will do my best to live the life I describe further down in this message.
I would suggest that the Pope has had to change his position on this issue because people just can’t buy into such a harsh belief.
When Jesus was asked by the apostles where He was going and how they could follow Him his response was that He is THE way and the ONLY way. I believe I will go to heaven because I have chosen to have Jesus as my personal Lord and Saviour. Yes, I must confess and ask for forgiveness for my sins BUT not to another human, to the one I have sinned against.God Himself. I must resolve to do better in the future.
I must also make every effort to treat my neighbors as He would expect me to and to live a life which resembles that lived by Jesus Himself while on this earth. After all, He spent time with us showing us how to live our lives so they are pleasing to God.NLM
 
James, my christian brother. Let me start by saying I am also a " cradle catholic". I am 57 years old and was a catholic for 51 of those years. I know of what I speak. I was a member of a religious order who did offer 30 consecutive days where one of our priests would offer mass for your departed loved one for the cost of $150.00. They were 30 low masses. The particular monastery I lived in had 12 to 15 priests so you do the math as to the income brought in DAILY by offering this service. So, please do not tell me this did not exist. $150.00 was a lot of money in the 70’s and for some even today is unattainable.
Your historical recount of the middle ages, in my estimation ,speaks of a “fee for service” which is not much different from giving 10% to support the work of God on this earth.
I am not," spewing ancient polemics" nor do I speak of 500 years ago. This practice existed as recently as the mid to late 70’s and if one requested that a particular priest in our monastery say mass for one particular person for 30 consecutive days it would be done, upon payment of the fee.
I am not " parroting the old worn polemis started by men now long dead" I am very much alive. Wether these men are in hell or not is not up to us to say as the Bible is quite clear that we are not to judge.
My issue is this. The moment I die I will be judged. I will go to heaven or hell and that will be decided at that moment. I will go to heaven based on decisions I made and how I lived my life NOT because others prayed for me perhaps years after I died. I asked a priest one day about this very issue. He answered that yes, I would indeed be judged at the time of my death but God in His infinite wisdom can see at that same moment all the masses and prayers which would be offered for the repose of my soul for years to come and that He would factor those into His final decision as to where I would spend eternity. How lame is that ? Many heard this explanation as we were standing in a funeral home at the time. The reason I asked the question was that people were buying mass cards by the dozen for the repose of the deceased, a 92 years old lady.
It did not make sense to me then and still does not. It is not surprising so many of us have looked elsewhere to live out our Christianity. Yes, money is absolutely vital to the running of any church organization. It is necessary to do His work and to save the unsaved. But to offer it to save an individual who has already died just does not make sense.That is the opinion of a former catholic and very happy protestant. NLM
Sorry, but reading ahead here you make so many illogical and contradictory statements that its is pointless for me to discuss this much more with you. You have an illogical and highly emotional sort of mind that is predisposed to suspicion, mistrust and a strange sense of unfairness - even while you tithe 10% of your salary to your Protestant Church. YOU do the numbers. 10% of average household income (in 2007 was $50,233.00) comes to over $5,000. YOU give more to your Protestant Church than most Catholics give. There is no tithing requirement for Catholics - we give according to our means and I’d wager 70% of those over age 60 give no more than $5 per week! The old joke among Catholics priests who hear of Catholics complaining about unexciting homilies is “What do you expect for a buck in the collection basket?” 😃 So, even if what you say is true of somone paying $150 dollars for 30 masses (which is ALWAYS a suggested donation and that is VERY high compared to other orders) it is CHEAP - $5/mass. 5$ per mass is the traditional donation and if somone wants to give 1 mass or 5, 0r 10, or 30 or a lifetime that is THEIR personal decision and YOU have no business trying to make others feel guilty for doing a nice thing for somone. Most Parishes never permit more than 1-2 people to be remembered per daily mass. That measly $5 does not even pay to turn the lights on in the church pal - get a sense of perspective and reality. NO ONE prescribed how many masses should be said to a person. In fact if you were really in a religious order those donations were helping to feed and cloth YOU and YOU lived on that charity and now you have the gall to bite the hand of goodwill of good Christians that fed you in those years??? That’s outrageous. Sit down and calculate what it cost The Church to put a roof over your head, give you a room to sleep in, feed you 3 times a day and you will see that you are being absolutely ridiculous in your judgements. NO ONE forced anyone to donate money for masses - it was nice gesture. Most people elect to get perpetual daily masses for the life of a person said for about $100. That is less than most people spend taking their family out for a birthday diner. Eternity is a long time bro. People are free to go to mass everyday for somone they care for and say prayers for no charge. A single rosary said in church is a full plenary if one is in a high state of grace. If somone wants to donate money that is THEIR business NOT yours. You really are clueless about what you are talking about with respect to the underlying theology as well.

Really, I don’t buy a word of you claiming to be in a religious order - they don’t let people into the monastery as poorly educated as you are about the faith. I really think you are untruthful. If you were really Catholic as you said you were then you would know that NO ONE BUYS THEIR WAY INTO HEAVEN - NO ONE. THOSE IN PURGATORY WERE ALREADY JUDGED WORTHY OF HEAVEN BY GOD.

Prove to me you were religious - tell me a few things about the Divine Office. How many times a day did your order come together for community prayer?

As for current situation. You have been brainwashed by ignorant and spiteful men. If you were ever really Catholic you have been duped and your faith has been stolen from you by playing on your own ignorance about the Catholic faith and your own personal biases and prejudices. You are now following a false religion that has ZERO chance of saving you. There is NOTHING in a Protestant religion that saves. Apart from baptism any grave post baptismal sins (like renouncing one’s Catholic faith) can’t be forgiven except by PERFECT CONTRITION - which is impossible without supernatural grace. Only God saves and He does so normally through His Church - the Catholic Church. Those outside The Catholic Church can not be saved unless they come into it before they die by conscious free assent (and repent and confess their sins) or are supernaturally joined through Divine Mercy. But there is not a single case that gives support that a single Protestant has ever been saved - not one single case of a post-death miracle for any deceased Protestant. Compare that to many thousands of Catholic cases.

James
 
No, I do not believe in praying for the dead. Remember what happened on the cross the day Jesus died? He said to the thief," Today you will be with me in paradise". There is no misinterpreting what He said. The thief through the grace of God, nothing else, went straight to heaven when he died. He would have had much time to spend in this purgatory. We know that from the reason he was being executed.No one was left having to pray to help him out of purgatory.The thief made an act of faith and accepted Jesus for who He was when he said, " Remember me when you are in your paradise. He knew and accepted Jesus at that moment. THAT is how we enter the kingdom of heaven NOT because others pray for us for years after we have died and have been judged.
You don’t seem to GET IT - all in purgatory gain heaven if we pray for them or not. Praying for them just helps to reduce their suffering to gain heaven more quickly (relative to our time). Praying is an opportunity to help others and is NO DIFFERENT than praying for a sick or suffering family member in the here and now. Just because your wife fell down and broke her leg and will “get well” in a month or so does that mean you would not pray for her to reduce her pain and quicken her recovery? Does it? :rolleyes:

As for the Good Thief - you really need to learn some theology. Heaven was NOT opened until Christ rose from the dead. The Good Thief went to “paradise” which is NOT the same thing as heaven. It is a placed called “the bosom of Abraham” where those who died before Christ went to wait for Christ to open heaven to them. Re-read your scripture and see that Christ taught those in Sheol for 3 days. The Good Thief went to Sheol and was probably admitted to heaven after Christ rose again (3 days) - NOT THE SAME DAY. This place was probably closed after Christ rose and in its place was opened Purgatory - a place of Divine Mercy for those who failed to complete their sanctification while on earth. It too will be emptied and closed at the end of time when Christ comes again.
How do you think churches survive if not through the fund raising aspect of parishioners paying to have a mass said? If you are ever present at a funeral home when an elderly catholic person dies, just ask a family member how many mass cards were purchased in memory of the deceased. I worked in the funeral industry and trust me, there were literally thousands of dollars brought to the local catholic church on a regular basis.Please do not confuse this as my not wanting to financially support my or any church.I believe in giving 10% back to the church for it to operate and do it’s work.
Have you ever seen a church budget sheet? MOST income is from weekly collections of the parishioners and from other fund raisers (festivals, community dinners etc.). VERY VERY little income is proportionally gained through memorial masses - LESS than the cost to conduct the free daily masses that good Catholics try to go to during the weekday if they do not have to work. Again - get a sense of reality. The cost of turning on the Church lights and running the AC is probably $100 or more. Those minor $10-$20 donations per mass don’t even cover operating expenses - it is a religious service to the laity.

I am done wasting breath on this with you now since you really lack any realistic insight.
Money is not the only reason I left the catholic church but it was one of them.I could no longer accept some of the fundamental beliefs of the church. The infailliability of the Pope, and the ones you listed. Limbo I could not accept. To say an innocent little baby would NEVER see the face of God because he died, through no fault of his own before being baptised seems VERY severe to me. After all, even those who had sinned and were in purgatory had a chance through the prayers of others but those small infants could not be " prayed"out. What kind of God would punish a child that way? Not my God.I suppose the most difficult one for me was the transubstantiation of the elements at the mass.
Why must everyone keep bringing up Luther? That was then this is now. What I am speaking of is recent history and/or current practice.I found it interesting that seasoned catholics seem to be so unaware of so many practices within the church. You have never heard of paying for a mass or a mass card and James had never heard of the Gregorian Thirty. I am not making these things up folks. They are VERY real AND very current. If you look on the internet for Gregorian Thirty, you will find the explanation AND a retired priest who CURRENTLY offers this service …for a fee. NLM
Limbo is NOT a required belief - it is speculation and was an attempt to give some reasonable comfort to those who lost their children before baptism. Scripture makes it very clear that NO ONE enters heaven unless he is baptised and reborn. The more modern teaching is that we just trust God’s Mercy and hope He has a plan for these souls since He is NOT limited to the sacraments and may supernaturally intervene to baptise and accept them. In any case there is no dogmatic teaching - its all speculative but based on sound theology. As for baptising the dead - NO! This is NOT permitted Catholic practice.

You keep refuting one Catholic doctrine after another. Now you say that there is no real presence. PLEASE DROP THE CHARADE - YOU WERE NEVER CATHOLIC. If you were you were only a Cultural Catholic and never believed a single thing about the Catholic Faith.

What do you mean I have never heard about the Gregorian 30 day Masses??? I did not say I did not know about them. It is a popular and ancient pious belief that 30 consecutive high masses can almost guarantee a particular soul in purgatory can be advanced to heaven. BUT THIS IS NOT DOGMATIC TEACHING and we have no way of knowing if that soul ALREADY IS IN HEAVEN (or is hell). We can ALWAYS do a personal plenary indulgences EVERY SINGLE DAY if one is in a high state of grace. If successful that releases the soul to heaven - again we don’t know for certain unless God gives us a revelation. The truth is we never know for sure how effective our masses or prayers are and so that is why many people do many private prayers for the deceased loved ones as well as offer perpetual masses. I pity those like you who will not have friends who will offer masses and prayers because “your God” does not honor prayer for the dead. And that’s the problem - YOU want to put God in YOUR box.

Info here on 30 Masses: traditioninaction.org/religious/d014rp30Gregorian_Somerville.html

James
 
My grandma just died a month and 1/2 ago. She was 77 an “elder”… She was Catholic, and we never spent thousands of dollars or even one dollar on mass cards for her. My parents purchased prayer cards for her, which were for the people coming to see her at the wake had the opportunity to take one.
The part you discuss about a baby, parents can still have a baby baptized after it has died. My cousin gave birth to a still-born baby and had it baptized. If Catholics know that is a belief, then they will have the baby baptized. I do agree with you that it does seem harsh to have a baby go to Hell for that reason… Here is some new coverage on Pope Benedict changing the rules on that:
abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/national_world&id=5230555

Sometimes things have to change with time. That rule was made a long time ago, before people were having abortions and such. There is no way to really baptize a baby that has been aborted either. Therefore, it makes sense to say that children are born in a “state of grace” or something of sorts.

Everyone has their own beliefs and their own thoughts on things. Do you believe that through faith alone you will go to heaven, despite the fact that you may be in sin when you die? (Faith with or without works as well)
No, we don’t baptise the dead kristanl.

There are no dogmatic teachings on what God does with those who are unbaptised and die as infants. We place them in God’s Mercy and Trust. But the teaching is that the normal requirement is that one must be baptised to gain heaven (and stay out of grave sin). God is not limited to the sacraments and can show mercy on infants. My own belief is that Catholic infants that are about to die get a supernatural baptism by desire since a requirement for catholic marriage is a sworn promise to raise the children Catholic. That to me is a contract/covenant with God that is tied to the marriage itself and the intention is baptise children is pre-declared at God’s altar in front of His priest and the congregation at marriage. So it is logical to assume that God would make good on that vow for us since God creates NO ONE just to send them to hell - this fated to hell is a Protestant idea that comes out of their warped double-predestiny theology that is full of errors.

James
 
First let me say that if I am correct, the catholic church believes that non-baptised infants have inherited the original sin so are in a state of sin NOT in a state of grace if not baptised. I am not certain if baptism after the baby has died is still valid for the child in the catholic way of thinking. If nothing else, it would comfort the parents so there is worth in that.I do not believe one must be baptised to go to heaven.Baptism is a public acknowledgement that I have chosen Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and that I will do my best to live the life I describe further down in this message.
I would suggest that the Pope has had to change his position on this issue because people just can’t buy into such a harsh belief.
Catholics don’t change their theology to keep the pews filled - that is a Protestant tradition and why there are over 40,000+ Protestant denominations so they can pick and choose what they desire to believe in and church shop.

We have never had a dogmatic position on what happens to non-baptised infants and Catholics may believe as they desire. We trust in God’s Mercy.
When Jesus was asked by the apostles where He was going and how they could follow Him his response was that He is THE way and the ONLY way. I believe I will go to heaven because I have chosen to have Jesus as my personal Lord and Saviour. Yes, I must confess and ask for forgiveness for my sins BUT not to another human, to the one I have sinned against.God Himself. I must resolve to do better in the future.
I must also make every effort to treat my neighbors as He would expect me to and to live a life which resembles that lived by Jesus Himself while on this earth. After all, He spent time with us showing us how to live our lives so they are pleasing to God.NLM
But Jesus was A MAN and so were the apostles and HE give them the authority to forgive sins. Better read all this scripture: scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

The early Church history proves out that the church members ALL confessed sins publicly to one another and the priest would forgive them since he has the apostolic authority to do so. Jesus would not give an authority to forgive sins if it was not a real authority and men could just assume that God forgives them when they ask - irrespective of true repentance.

There is no statement in scripture that tells us that we must accept Jesus as “our personal lord and savior”. What scripture tells us is that Jesus IS LORD - no matter what we believe. To be saved a necessary condition, but not the only condition is that we must believe that He is Lord AND must also OBEY HIM as LORD. There is no such concept as easy-believism where mere belief gains salvation - one must serve and do works of grace to prove that one obeys and believes in Jesus. Otherwise you have a dead and lip-service only faith. The demons of Hell believe that Jesus is Lord and tremble - for what good that does them to escape hell…

“not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter My Kingdom but he who** does **My Father’s Will.”

Note: “DOE’S” is a VERB - A WORK - but a work of grace not a work of law.

James
 
Dear James, First of all, through all our interesting dialogue and sharing of ideas and opinions and life experiences, I have respected you enough to not doubt your word. I would have hoped you would have offered me the same courtesy. Yes, I was Catholic for 51 years. I was baptised in the Catholic Church on August 23, 1952.I attended school to nuns, made my first communion at age 6 in 1958. I was confirmed by the Bishop when I was in grade 3. I served mass as an altar boy for many years and actually thought new server the latin required to serve mass in those days.
You seem surprised when I say you did not seem to know about the Gregorian Thirty masses. On August 06,09 at 7:14 you said," I do not know of a single Catholic who has ever paid to have private masses said for a deceased family member for 30 days".If you require confirmation of this practice from a current Catholic, please go to www.transformingchurch.com. This priest offers such a service even today. As much as you would want to say I am making this up,I am not. Just educate yourself in this matter.
You have called me “untruthful” in this very public forum. If you don’t know me and you are in no position to question my background and upbringing sir.
You have asked for me to "prove"to you that I was a member of a religious order. I need not prove anything to you but in the interest of showing others who may be following this discussion who have seen you question my integrety, I will explain to you my life as a monk.
I was admitted to the monastery as a postulant for a few months. On the Feast of the Assumption of Mary,August 15, I received the habit of a novice. Our days were devided into three activities. We prayed for about 8 hours a day, we performed manual labor for about 8 hours and we slept for about 8 hours. We rose at 4:15 am. Met in the chapel at 4:30 for Matines. This was followed by private meditation. breakfast and then Laudes.We then had Tierce at 8 am followed by mass. Manual labor followed. At 12noon we had Sexte followed by lunch. A siesta followed. None was then said followed by manual labor. At 5PM we had Vespers followed by supper. A time of Lectio Devina followed.Compline with the singing of the very beautiful Salve Regina was at 8:30pm.We then retired for the night.Our Abbey was governed by an Abbot, a Prior and a Sub-Prior. We had a Novice Master. Our noon meal was taken in silence while one of our brothers who would eat before the rest would read aloud from the Rule Book and some other interesting literature.I hope this will help you understand that I am not an imposter.I WAS catholic for 51 years.And I WAS a monk.If I must explain my choice to leave the church to you I will. I could no longer accept having to believe things which were to be ,believed and accepted only on the basis of the Pope having said we had to. I want to live my life based on what I am asked by God Himself in the Bible.Have a good day James. NLM
 
Dear James, First of all, through all our interesting dialogue and sharing of ideas and opinions and life experiences, I have respected you enough to not doubt your word. …

.If I must explain my choice to leave the church to you I will. I could no longer accept having to believe things which were to be ,believed and accepted only on the basis of the Pope having said we had to. I want to live my life based on what I am asked by God Himself in the Bible.Have a good day James. NLM
OK I believe that you have knowledge of the consecrated life - you described a typical habit that is often one founded on the Order of St. Albert of St. Benedict etc. You appear to know the Liturgy of the Hours. I am just amazed that after all that time you would turn your back on your church and everything you believed. You had the right faith NLM. Why do you have so much resentment for the pope when he never speaks outside of the communion of The Bishops. Did you have some kind of personal discipline problem or were unable to hold to the chastity and obedience requirements and are now angry and the recent crack down that mandated a ZERO tolerance for certain kinds of proclivities even when an oath was taken of chastity etc.?

I can not accept that anyone exposed to the full Catechism teaching and the depth of the Catholic theology could ever embrace the water thin reformed theology that is so blatantly self contradictory and is formed on mere secular men and hobbyist self-styled theologians who had no special insights or knowledge and were often themselves all in violent disagreement with each other. Most often they were severely intolerant of dissenters in their ranks and even murdered their religious opponents. Some publicly taught reformed theology but privately advised their own family to stay with the “surer faith” rather than the “new, more convenient faith”.

James
 
OK I believe that you have knowledge of the consecrated life - you described a typical habit that is often one founded on the Order of St. Albert of St. Benedict etc. You appear to know the Liturgy of the Hours. I am just amazed that after all that time you would turn your back on your church and everything you believed. You had the right faith NLM. Why do you have so much resentment for the pope when he never speaks outside of the communion of The Bishops. Did you have some kind of personal discipline problem or were unable to hold to the chastity and obedience requirements and are now angry and the recent crack down that mandated a ZERO tolerance for certain kinds of proclivities even when an oath was taken of chastity etc.?

I can not accept that anyone exposed to the full Catechism teaching and the depth of the Catholic theology could ever embrace the water thin reformed theology that is so blatantly self contradictory and is formed on mere secular men and hobbyist self-styled theologians who had no special insights or knowledge and were often themselves all in violent disagreement with each other. Most often they were severely intolerant of dissenters in their ranks and even murdered their religious opponents. Some publicly taught reformed theology but privately advised their own family to stay with the “surer faith” rather than the “new, more convenient faith”.

James
James, Thank you for acknowledging that I was indeed a member of a religious order. To satisfy your curiosity even more, I was a Trappist.
You seem to have neglected to comment any further on the issue of the Gregorian Thirty.What I will say is that in religion as is the case in life in general, just because YOU have not heard of it does not mean it does not exist. I don’t for one minute profess to know everything about the Catholic church but I do know some things.
You say you are surprised that with everything I believed I still left the church.Here is what happened to me.Until the Vatican Council I had no problem with any part of the church I loved it and was very active in it. When many of the “rules " changed so dramatically post-Vatican Council, it lead me to great confusion and turmoil. Why was it that for years I could not eat for 3 hours prior to receiving communion, now it was one hour. Why was it that until now ONLY the priest could go into the tabernacle to see if more hosts needed to be consecrated at the upcoming mass. Now the sacristan, an elderly lady from the community was doing this. Why was it that for years I as an altar server and could not touch the chalice with my bare hands…now I could. And the list goes on. I was about 13 or 14 then.I had been taught by the priests and nuns that all those rules were direction from the Pope and MUST be obeyed or I would be committing a sin. We had also been taught the Pope was infalliable when speaking on church issues so then, if this Pope in his infalliablity was making these changes, the previous Pope must have made mistakes so just how infalliable is the Pope? If I had to confess to a priest that I had received holy communion before the three hours were up as I had committed a sin, why now is it only one hour. Did I sin or did I not sin. You can see where I am going.
I did however hang in there and eventually entered the monastery. What that actually did was allow me much quiet time to think through exactly what it was I believed in and what I did not. I left the order on my own without any issue having been created. It was not the place for me and I knew it.It allowed me to see that all these " rules”
Since then I have been left hanging and making attempts from time to time to get back into the church but it never worked. I was always left needing more.
I can tell you there is no doubt in my mind that God Himself guided me to the church I currently attend. I can also tell you I have NEVER felt closer to Jesus in my entire life. He has NEVER been more real to me. I have been on cloud 9 for the past 6 years. I can tell you a few coworkers of mine who have watched from a distance at what I was experiencing have also followed me in this change. They were Catholics as well. They are also VERY happy and content.
You ask why I seem to have some resentment towards this pope.I don’t think I have. As a leader of a large denomination I respect him,but not his infalliability.The other issue I have with the current Pope is this. Let me start by saying my information comes from the media on what I am about to comment on. I have no reason to think it is correct but it may be. It was always explained to me that a cardinal does not " want" to become Pope but accept when he sees it is the will of God and inspired by the Holy Spirit. It was reported that the current Pope " wanted" to be chosen Pope. IF this is accurate then it changes everything. When I see how " HOLY " Pope John-Paul II was and how humble a man he was it is a bit discouraging to see this man adorn himself with ermin, a very large papal ring etc. I would not be surprised if he decided to bring back the custome of being carried on the shoulders of all those men.You must agree he does not have the following the former Pope had.
You said that the church did not have a dogmatic position on what happens to non-baptised infants and that Catholics may believe as they wish. Well, in the Doctrinal Manual I have here it says this.Limbo is the place wherein are destined the souls of those infants who have died without baptism.The souls of infants are shut out from life everlasting , which consists essentially in the vision of God face to face.This has been declared by several councils.This is what the church was teaching on the subject. Sounds pretty clear to me.God bless.NLM
 
James, Thank you for acknowledging that I was indeed a member of a religious order. To satisfy your curiosity even more, I was a Trappist.
You seem to have neglected to comment any further on the issue of the Gregorian Thirty. What I will say is that in religion as is the case in life in general, just because YOU have not heard of it does not mean it does not exist. I don’t for one minute profess to know everything about the Catholic Church but I do know some things.
Wow a Trappist - that’s a respectable order. I used to buy a lot of their special fudge candies for the holidays - full of bourbon lol.

Regrettably, again, you are misunderstanding my words. I am saying that I know of no Catholics who use the Gregorian Thirty. That is a MUCH different than saying it is not an ancient practice - you guys are not competitive lol. It makes more sense for most modern Catholics to offer a PERPETUAL mass for only about a donation of $100 which means one gets 10,000’s of masses said for them until the end of time! Let’s look at some fundamental economics. Why spend $150 for 30 Gregorian masses when one can get UNLIMITED masses for $100??? Now true, the Gregorian masses are said SOLELY for that ONE individual for 30 days and its a popular pious BELIEF (but not ascertained or ruled on by the Church) that this mass is so pleasing that one may assume that if the soul did not go to hell for mortal sins then they were advanced from purgatory to heaven (if they were not in heaven on an earlier day). The Church PERMITS one to hold the belief in the efficacy of the Gregorian Thirty since it is so ancient and has good pedigree of attestation by saints. But that is a FAR cry from saying it’s a guarantee. The Church does not teach that anyone WILL gain a full plenary unless God permits it - period. A very pious widow who is in high grace and has no attachment to sin can promote a soul to heaven each day of the week by simply saying the rosary in church or by doing the stations of the cross or by spending 30 minutes of adoration before the tabernacle. Truthfully, if I was to want to pay someone for their prayers for a loved one I’d go find the most holy person I could find who is living modestly and going to confession and receiving Eucharist and pay them for 30 minutes of adoration for their intentions. The religious Laity could corner the indulgence market if they wanted too since some of the laity are more holy and saintly than many of our consecrated religious are - who get caught up in secular assignments and get pulled out of their spiritual habits.

Bottom Line - most people pay for perpetual masses and many more are also members of confraternity (see my signature link) that also give their prayers to their members perpetually. But NO ONE gets wealthy selling indulgences and I doubt it even covers the costs of turning the lights on and paying building maintenance.
You say you are surprised that with everything I believed I still left the church. Here is what happened to me. Until the Vatican Council I had no problem with any part of the church I loved it and was very active in it. When many of the "rules " changed so dramatically post-Vatican Council, it lead me to great confusion and turmoil. Why was it that for years I could not eat for 3 hours prior to receiving communion, now it was one hour…
All these things you mentioned are DISCIPLINES - NOT DOGMATIC TEACHINGS.
These are things that The Church can change any time based on needs. Even the requirement for non-married priests is a discipline - and The Church could permit married priests if it elected to (but this one will not be changed - only given rare exceptions). The truth is NO DOGMA was changed by the Vatican Council - it was ALL discipline changes. The fasting rules are there only to reverence Christ and for The Church to impose its authority so Catholics can have a weekly opportunity to demonstrate their obedience and loyalty to the apostolic authority. Disobedience to Christ’s appointed leaders is grave matter and must be tested from time to time. It’s all part of The Church trying to get people to respect and reverence The Lord more and to endear more reverence to prevent profanation or sacrilege. It’s only a grave sin if one defies the Church’s authority - honest errors or forgetfulness is OK.

Many of us do not like the overuse of extraordinary lay ministers either - but it’s a pragmatic thing since the priests are so few these days and they need help. The ancient church also had helpers who were not consecrated (ref. Phoebe) but were highly respected members who were given scrutiny - not anyone could do it.

But Pope Benedict XVI is cracking down on the over use of lay ministers and I think we are going to see a drastic reduction in numbers of laity in and around the altar and the tabernacle.
We had also been taught the Pope was infallible when speaking on church issues so then, if this Pope in his infallibility was making these changes, the previous Pope must have made mistakes so just how infallible is the Pope? If I had to confess to a priest that I had received Holy Communion before the three hours were up as I had committed a sin, why now is it only one hour. Did I sin or did I not sin.
NO you didn’t sin if you made an honest mistake. These are all disciplines and are not dogmas and the church can change these practices any time. I have more to say later.

[cont]

James
 
You can see where I am going.
I did however hang in there and eventually entered the monastery. What that actually did was allow me much quiet time to think through exactly what it was I believed in and what I did not. I left the order on my own without any issue having been created. It was not the place for me and I knew it. It allowed me to see that all these " rules"
Since then I have been left hanging and making attempts from time to time to get back into the church but it never worked. I was always left needing more.
Didn’t you talk to your Abbot or spiritual advisor? They could have easily advised you about all these issues and corrected some of your misperceptions. Nearly everyone goes through “down periods” or dark-night of the soul - it’s a test of faith and it’s a blessing.
I can tell you there is no doubt in my mind that God Himself guided me to the church I currently attend. I can also tell you I have NEVER felt closer to Jesus in my entire life. He has NEVER been more real to me. I have been on cloud 9 for the past 6 years. I can tell you a few coworkers of mine who have watched from a distance at what I was experiencing have also followed me in this change. They were Catholics as well. They are also VERY happy and content.
I am hearing warning signs here NLM. Spiritual experience is not all that often a “feeling” or sensory sort of thing. Spiritual advancement is more often described as suffering and a joy and peace in that suffering. Don’t confuse emotionalism and social feelings and group dynamics as being close to Jesus. This is how most Protestants “hook” Catholics away from their faith - make them feel welcome into their church and give them the social attention every human craves. That can all be good of course - but don’t confuse “acceptance” and group dynamics as spiritual correctness.
You ask why I seem to have some resentment towards this pope. I don’t think I have. As a leader of a large denomination I respect him, but not his infalliability.The other issue I have with the current Pope is this. Let me start by saying my information comes from the media on what I am about to comment on. I have no reason to think it is correct but it may be. It was always explained to me that a cardinal does not “want" to become Pope but accept when he sees it is the will of God and inspired by the Holy Spirit. It was reported that the current Pope “wanted" to be chosen Pope. IF this is accurate then it changes everything. When I see how " HOLY " Pope John-Paul II was and how humble a man he was it is a bit discouraging to see this man adorn himself with ermin, a very large papal ring etc. I would not be surprised if he decided to bring back the custom of being carried on the shoulders of all those men. You must agree he does not have the following the former Pope had.
On infallibility: Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide his Church to all truth and that the gates of hell would not prevail. That means the Church can not teach error or Jesus would be telling us falsehoods - which is impossible. Since the Pope is in communion with the bishops and the church and is spokesperson this also implies that the pope is infallible and can not teach error nor retrace prior teachings. We have never had a doctrinal error and no pope has ever contradicted another pope.

That bit about Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger wanting to be Pope is ABSOLUTELY BACKWARD! As cardinal Ratzinger Pope Benedict did NOT want to be pope - he wanted to retire and write books and life a simple life. In fact he prayed he would NOT be elected pope! But God wanted him - and thank God since he is a GREAT pope. We are really blessed with this pope - very intellectual and knows a lot of the church history.

As for the carrying the pontiff - I’d LOVE for them to bring it back AND the coronation ceremony. The Popes are like Emperors higher than any authority on earth. They are also Priests/Bishops and Prophets - we all are to some degree since we are a Holy Nation. I don’t think you understand that Catholics while living in our home countries are also members of this Holy Catholic Nation - a People set apart for God.
You said that the church did not have a dogmatic position on what happens to non-baptized infants and that Catholics may believe as they wish. Well, in the Doctrinal Manual I have here it says this. Limbo is the place wherein are destined the souls of those infants who have died without baptism. The souls of infants are shut out from life everlasting, which consists essentially in the vision of God face to face. This has been declared by several councils. This is what the church was teaching on the subject. Sounds pretty clear to me. God bless.NLM
I can understand you discomfort on this one. But you will find no modern catechism that teaches that babies go to limbus infantium (not the same as limbus patrum - where those dieing before Christ went to ). It’s a theological theory. limbus infantium was in the old Baltimore Catechism however. But again - this was NOT dogmatically defined and it was not a required Catholic belief – albeit many laity probably thought it was since it was in the old Baltimore catechism. Our dilemma here is that scripture clearly states that no one gets to heaven unless they are baptized. We trust God to “do the right thing” and since He is not held to the sacraments like we are HE can certainly perform a supernatural baptism. Personally think that most of these children go to the limbus infantium that The Church has taught -a place of paradisiacal comfort and peace but not joined to eternal beatitude with God. But I also believe that God makes good on Catholic wedding vows for Catholic infants who were sworn to be raised in the faith as a condition of marriage vows. It seems consistent with justice to me that God would supernaturally intervene to perform a supernatural baptism by marriage covenantal vow. Again - this is my own speculation.

But you are wrong about the disposition of infants being dogmatically declared by council - it’s never been settled dogma.

James
 
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