Praying for the dead

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I would appreciate everyone’s comments on the following letter about praying for the dead, that I wrote in order to comfort the widow of Lars. Lars had been a practicing Buddhist in California. His wife joined him in practicing Buddhism, but still considered herself to be a Christian. The letter has been denounced in a general way by a fundamentalist Protestant relative, but not specifically saying what is wrong with what I wrote. Comments? Here are the first two points out of seven points in the letter. Since it is too long for a single post, I will try to post my other points later.
Thanks, everybody!
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Here is why I think it is likely that Lars ends up in heaven.
  1. God wants Lars to be with Him in heaven.
    The Lord is not slack…but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. – 2 Peter 3:9
Since God is not willing that Lars should perish, and since He is all-powerful and all-knowing, He can make it happen – whether or not man’s theology has figured out when or how He will do it.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.” – Isaiah 55:8-9

Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass. – 1 Thessalonians 5:24
  1. God could reach Lars while he is dying, and dying may be a longer process than we perceive.
    It may be that when someone dies, there is a period of time before what we call death is “final”. These days, we hear of people who were clinically dead, but they came back to life after a while. In the Bible, they sometimes refer to death as “falling asleep”, not necessarily a final spiritual death as yet. For instance, Jesus talks about His good friend, Lazarus:
    The sisters [of Lazarus] therefore sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.” But when Jesus heard it, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it.”…”Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.” The disciples therefore said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. Then Jesus therefore said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead…” – John 11:3-14
After four days, Jesus did “awaken him out of sleep”:
So when Jesus came, He found that [Lazarus] had already been in the tomb four days…Jesus said, “Remove the stone.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days.”…He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” He who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings; and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” – John 11:17-44
 
Here is the third point in my letter about Lars and praying for the dead:
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3. God does not give up. Some parables that Jesus taught:
“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” – Luke 15:4-7

“Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!’ In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
– Luke 15:8-10

[The prodigal son returns after squandering all of his inheritance:]
“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him, and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him, and kissed him…the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and be merry; for this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.’ And they began to be merry.” – Luke 15:20-24
Keep in mind that a Scripture may have both a literal interpretation and a figurative interpretation, a physical interpretation and a spiritual interpretation – and its principles can be applied to some other situations, as long as the application is in harmony with other Scriptures.
 
Here is the fourth point in my letter about Lars and praying for the dead:
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4. We should pray to Jesus for Lars both before and after death. (This is not the same as praying TO the dead, which is forbidden.)
God may answer our prayers for Lars by giving him life, or one more opportunity to choose life. Jesus spoke of Lazarus being “asleep” – his physical body was dead, but his spirit was still available to return to his body. When Bible people prayed for those who were dead, God gave them life in the natural. If we can also apply these verses to the spiritual, then even though Lars might not rise up in his body, maybe he could become alive spiritually in heaven.
• The prophet Elijah prayed for the dead son of the widow of Zarephath:
Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the Lord, “O Lord my God, I pray Thee, let this child’s life return to him.” And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah, and the life of the child returned to him and he revived. – 1 Kings 17:21-22
• The prophet Elisha, who had been a student of Elijah, prayed for the dead son of the Shunammite woman:
When Elisha came into the house, behold the lad was dead and laid on his bed. So he entered and shut the door behind them both, and prayed to the Lord…and the flesh of the child became warm…and the lad sneezed seven times and the lad opened his eyes. – 2 Kings 4:32-35
• God commanded Ezekiel to pray for the dead bones:
Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’ Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life.’”…So I prophesied as He had commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life, and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
• Jesus raised up the dead daughter of Jairus:
And entering in, He said to them, “Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him. But putting them all out, He took along the child’s father and mother and His own companions, and entered the room where the child was. And taking her by the hand, He said to her, “Talitha kum!” (which translated means, “Little girl, I say to you, arise!”) And immediately the girl rose and began to walk; for she was twelve years old. – Mark 5:39-42
• Jesus raised up the dead son of the widow of Nain:
And He came up and touched the coffin; and the bearers came to a halt. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise!” And the dead man sat up, and began to speak. And Jesus gave him back to his mother. – Luke 7:14-15
• Jesus commanded His followers to raise the dead:
“And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons; freely you received, freely give.” – Matthew 10:7-8
• Peter prayed for the dead disciple Tabitha:
Now in Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity, which she continually did. And it came about at that time that she fell sick and died; and when they had washed her body, they laid it in an upper room…And when [Peter] had come, they brought him into the upper room…But Peter sent them all out and knelt down and prayed, and turning to the body, he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter, she sat up. And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive. – Acts 9:36-41
• God assures us that He answers our prayers (although not necessarily in the way that we think He should):
“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you.” – John 15:7
“…that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you.” – John 15:16
“And whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.” – John 14:13
“Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they shall be granted you.” – Mark 11:24
“Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened…how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!” – Matthew 7:7-11
 
Here are the fifth and sixth points (of seven) in my letter about Lars and praying for the dead:
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5. Jesus may preach to Lars even after he dies, giving him yet another chance to choose life.
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient…they shall give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For the good news has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:5-6

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment…I say these things that you may be saved.” – John 5:24-34
  1. God even wants those who are not looking for him.
    “I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me.” – Isaiah 65:1
    And Isaiah is very bold and says, “‘I was found by those who sought Me not, I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.’” – Romans 10:20
God Himself draws people to Jesus:
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day…No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.” – John 6:40, 44

God can send an angel to preach:
And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.” – Revelation 14:6-7

God can honor the actions of the living for the dead:
Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? – 1 Corinthians 15:29

God can save someone because of those He has already cleansed:
He will deliver one who is not innocent, and he will be delivered through the cleanness of your hands. – Job 22:30

God can give life even through those who are dead that served Him faithfully:
And as they were burying a man, behold, they saw a marauding band; and they cast the [dead] man into the grave of Elisha. And when the man touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood up on his feet. – 2 Kings 13:21

God can give life to those who did not know Jesus:
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth shook; and the rocks were split, and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. – Matthew 27:50-53
 
Here is my seventh and final point about Lars and praying for the dead:
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7. And we depend on the character of God. Yes, there will come a day for judgment for those who refuse his every plea, but until then:
“Yet even now,” declares the Lord, “return to Me with all your heart, and with fasting, weeping, and mourning; and rend your heart and not your garments.” Now return to the Lord your God, for He is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness, and relenting of evil. – Joel 2:12-13

Or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? – Romans 2:4

…and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation… – 2 Peter 3:15

…For God is love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. – 1 John 4:8-10

God describes Himself:
“The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin…” – Exodus 34:6-7

The Bible describes Jesus:
Mercy and Truth have met together; Righteousness and Peace have kissed each other. – Psalm 85:10
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So, can people show me which of these points are not correct?
Sorry for the length – I was trying to make it comprehensive.
Thanks for your help, everyone!
 
IGNAT said:
I notice that Senior Member Fidelis is arguing the wrong point. The point at issue is praying for the dead and NOT praying to the dead.

Regards
Ignatius
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🙂 Only in response to dmussaw’s mis-understanding of the teachings of the Church where he (or she) IS talking about praying “to” the Saints.

If you read the earlier posts, you will see I was one of the ones that replied to the original topic before it got sidetracked. :tiphat:
 
As for as praying to the dead…When someone has died, you are not praying to them but praying to GOD for them.

If you believe as you stated that you should not pray to the dead, then why do you pray to the saints that have gone on before?

When a person has died, you can not pray for them concerning their eternal destination. That was decided before they died. It is appointed unto man ONCE to die, THEN the judgment- Hebrews 9:26-28. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man seen his mistakes, felt sorry and wanted redemption; yet there was none!!!

1 Peter 4
Living for God
1 So then, since Christ suffered physical pain, you must arm yourselves with the same attitude he had, and be ready to suffer, too. For if you have suffered physically for Christ, you have finished with sin. 2 You won’t spend the rest of your lives chasing your own desires, but you will be anxious to do the will of God. 3 You have had enough in the past of the evil things that godless people enjoy—their immorality and lust, their feasting and drunkenness and wild parties, and their terrible worship of idols.
4 Of course, your former friends are surprised when you no longer plunge into the flood of wild and destructive things they do. So they slander you. 5 But remember that they will have to face God, who will judge everyone, both the living and the dead. 6 That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead—so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the Spirit.
 
When you pray for the dead who are you praying to? What would be accomblished if you did pray for the dead? These people you are praying for are they christians?

Peace and blessings
 
grandadmiralmcb said:
I believe you have a misunderstanding of Catholic theology on this matter. You immediately bring forth an argument designed to counter praying to the dead, when catholic practice is to pray for the dead. Basically change your “to” to “for” and you have a totally different concept.
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Catholics also pray to the dead as well as for them. Thats also different than “consulting the dead” for foreknowledge and necromancy and sorcery.

We pray to the saints, our dead relatives, as well as for our dead relatives.

But the topic of this thread is praying for relatives, not to them. That’d be another thread.
 
dmussaw said:
When you pray for the dead who are you praying to? What would be accomblished if you did pray for the dead? These people you are praying for are they christians?

Peace and blessings
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No when you pray for you are not praying to the dead. There is a difference between praying for and praying to. Generally we pray to God for the souls in purgatory that they recognize their wrong doings and willing to follow and be with the Lord eternally. The people we pray for (dead or alive) are both Christians and non Christians alike.
 
OK!! What would praying for or to the dead do for them? what would it accomblish spirturaly?

God loves you…God bless
 
dmussaw said:
OK!! What would praying for or to the dead do for them? what would it accomblish spirturaly?

God loves you…God bless
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This increases our chance to get out of Purgatory earlier and to final destination of Heaven or Hell as the 4 last things are Death, Judgment, Heaven, Hell. The prayers are saying that someone cares about where your soul is and your eternal well being. It also is help those in Purgatory learn their mistakes and accept the Lord truly. Even though one may believe in the Lord it takes more than just believing to get to heaven. James 2 repeatedly tells us that we must have faith and do good works. What are good works you may ask?? It is following God’s will. As the Good Samaritan was in the parables, we are called to be like him to follow Christ and imitate Christ. Accepting the commandments and God’s precepts as well as acknowledge the beatitudes, spiritual and corporal works of mercy is doing God’s will.
 
tobinatorstark said:
No when you pray for you are not praying to the dead. There is a difference between praying for and praying to. Generally we pray to God for the souls in purgatory that they recognize their wrong doings and willing to follow and be with the Lord eternally. The people we pray for (dead or alive) are both Christians and non Christians alike.
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Where in the bible is the doctorine of purgatory taugh?
 
dmussaw said:
Where in the bible is the doctorine of purgatory taugh?
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Interestingly enough that you asked. This doctrine is found in the books of Tobit and 1 and 2 Machabees. Depending what version of the Bible you have, you or may not have those books. These books were in the ancient manuscripts that were used to translate the Bible. The first complete OT and NT Bible as one complete Bible. It was completed in 400. The canon which was set as the standard was established in 397 at the 3rd Council of Carthage. Seven books started to disappear from various Bibles just prior to the reformation. These 7 books are Judith, Tobit, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1 and 2 Machabees. Also parts of Esther and Daniel were omitted. Martin Luther also considered omitting: James, Jude, Revelation as well as he he added to Romans. These books started being removed roughly around 1517 from non Catholic Bibles. The King James Version when first released also had these 7 books. They were finally omitted in 1885. Newer version have never included them.
 
dmussaw said:
Where in the bible is the doctorine of purgatory taugh?
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Several places, such as first Corinthians, and Christ in Peter I preaches to the dead “spirits in prison”, i.e., Purgatory.

But not all doctrines are in the Bible explicitly-- the Bible doesn’t contain all the truth in the world. The apostolic tradition of praying for the dead is stated in several places in Scripture, St. Paul’s epistle, and II Maccabees, and Job, but it was also an apostolic tradition that the early Christians prayed for the dead, and their prayers are in the catacombs, graves, and in the early Christian writings.
 
tobinatorstark said:
Interestingly enough that you asked. This doctrine is found in the books of Tobit and 1 and 2 Machabees. Depending what version of the Bible you have, you or may not have those books. These books were in the ancient manuscripts that were used to translate the Bible. The first complete OT and NT Bible as one complete Bible. It was completed in 400. The canon which was set as the standard was established in 397 at the 3rd Council of Carthage. Seven books started to disappear from various Bibles just prior to the reformation. These 7 books are Judith, Tobit, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1 and 2 Machabees. Also parts of Esther and Daniel were omitted. Martin Luther also considered omitting: James, Jude, Revelation as well as he he added to Romans. These books started being removed roughly around 1517 from non Catholic Bibles. The King James Version when first released also had these 7 books. They were finally omitted in 1885. Newer version have never included them.
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I don’t know those books!

God loves you…God bless
 
Matariel said:
Several places, such as first Corinthians, and Christ in Peter I preaches to the dead “spirits in prison”, i.e., Purgatory.

But not all doctrines are in the Bible explicitly-- the Bible doesn’t contain all the truth in the world. The apostolic tradition of praying for the dead is stated in several places in Scripture, St. Paul’s epistle, and II Maccabees, and Job, but it was also an apostolic tradition that the early Christians prayed for the dead, and their prayers are in the catacombs, graves, and in the early Christian writings./QU

Sorry but I have to reject that doctorine and trust God.

God loves you…God bless
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dmussaw said:
Matariel;4766846:
Several places, such as first Corinthians, and Christ in Peter I preaches to the dead “spirits in prison”, i.e., Purgatory.

But not all doctrines are in the Bible explicitly-- the Bible doesn’t contain all the truth in the world. The apostolic tradition of praying for the dead is stated in several places in Scripture, St. Paul’s epistle, and II Maccabees, and Job, but it was also an apostolic tradition that the early Christians prayed for the dead, and their prayers are in the catacombs, graves, and in the early Christian writings.[/QU

Sorry but I have to reject that doctorine and trust God.

God loves you…God bless
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Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of God - St. Jerome 347-420
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