Praying for the dead

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ppasa316 said:
Maccabbes is not part of the inspired canon of scripture and therefore has no authority. Along with the rest of the Apocrypha, it was not accepted as inspired by the Jewish community that wrote them. They were not accepted by Jesus and the apostles who never quoted them in the NT. As far as Matt 12:32 the text is not speaking about forgiveness in the next life after suffering for sins but the fact that there will be no forgiveness for this sin in "the world to come. I Cor 3:15 Here Paul is speaking of believers who will one day be given a wage for their service to Christ. The text says nothing about believers suffering the temporal consequence for their sin in purgatory.
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In regards of 1 Corinthians 3:15. Ver. 12-15. Now if any man build, &c. This is a hard place, says St. Augustine, lib. de fid. & Oper. chap. xvi. tom. 6. p. 180. The interpreters are divided, as to the explication and application of this metaphorical comparison, contained in these four verses. St. Paul speaks of a building, where it is evident, says St. Augustine, that the foundation is Christ, or the faith of Christ, and his faith working by charity. The difficulties are 1. Who are the builders. 2. What is meant by gold, silver, precious stones, and what by wood, hay, stubble. 3. What is meant by the day of the Lord. 4. What by fire, how every one’s work shall be tried, and how some shall be saved by fire. As to the first, by the builders, as St. Paul had before called himself the first architect, who had laid the foundation of the faith of Christ among the Corinthians, interpreters commonly understand those doctors and preachers who there succeeded St. Paul: but as it is also said, that every man’s works shall be made manifest, St. Augustine and others understand not the preachers only, but all the faithful. As to the second difficulty, if by the builders we understand the preachers of the gospel, then by gold, silver, &c., is to be understood, good, sound, and profitable doctrine; and by wood, hay, stubble, a mixture of vain knowledge, empty flourishes, unprofitable discourses; but if all the faithful are builders, they whose actions are pure, lay gold upon the foundation; but if their actions are mixed with imperfections, venial failings, and lesser sins, these are represented by wood, hay, stubble, &c. 3. By the day of the Lord, is commonly understood either the day of general judgment, or the particular judgment, when every one is judged at his death, which sentence shall be confirmed again at the last day. 4. As to fire, which is mentioned thrice, if we consider what St. Paul says here of fire, he seems to use it in different significations, as he many times does other words. First, he tells us, (ver. 13.) that the day of the Lord…shall be revealed; or, as it is in the Greek, is revealed in, or by fire; where, by fire, is commonly understood the just and severe judgments of God, represented by the metaphor of fire. Secondly, he tells us in the same verse, that fire shall try every one’s work, of what sort it is. This may be again taken for the examining and trying fire of God’s judgments: and may be applied to the builders, whether preachers only or all the faithful. part 1 of 2
 
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Thirdly, he tells us, (ver. 14. and 15.) that some men’s works abide the fire of God’s judgments, they deserve no punishment, they are like pure gold, which receives no prejudice from the fire: but some men’s works burn, the superstructure, which they built upon the faith of Christ, besides gold, silver, precious stones, had also a mixture of wood, hay, stubble, which could not stand the trial of fire, which met with combustible matter, that deserved to be burnt. Every such man shall suffer a loss, when his works are burnt, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. Here the apostle speaks of fire in a more ample signification: of a fire which shall not only try, and examine, but also burn, and punish the builders, who notwithstanding shall also, after a time, escape from the fire, and be saved by fire, and in the day of the Lord, that is, after life (for the time of this life is the day of men). Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment for the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and in such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven. These words of the apostle, the Latin Fathers in the Council of Florence[1] brought against the Greeks to prove purgatory, to which the Greeks (who did not deny a purgatory, or a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins were to suffer for a time) made answer, that these words of St. Paul were expounded by St. Chrysostom and some of their Greek Fathers (which is true) of the wicked in hell, who are said to be saved by fire, inasmuch as they always subsist and continue in those flames, and are not destroyed by them: but this interpretation, as the Latin bishops replied, is not agreeable to the style of the holy Scriptures, in which, to be saved, both in the Greek and Latin, is expressed the salvation and happiness of souls in heaven. It may not be amiss to take notice that the Greeks, before they met with the Latins at Ferrara, of Florence, did not deny the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. They admitted a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins, suffered for a time, till cleansed from such sins: they allowed that the souls there detained from the vision of God, might be assisted by the prayers of the faithful: they called this purgatory a place of darkness, of sorrow, of punishments, and pains, but they did not allow there a true and material fire, which the Council did not judge necessary to decide and define against them, as appears in the definition of the Council. (Conc. Labb tom. xiii. p. 515.) (Witham) — The fire of which St. Paul here speaks, is the fire of purgatory, according to the Fathers, and all Catholic divines. (Calmet) — St. Augustine, expounding Psalm xxxvii. ver. 1., gives the proper distinction between this fire of purgatory and that of hell: both are punishments, one temporary, the other eternal; the latter to punish us in God’s justice, the former to amend us in his mercy.
 
tobinatorstark said:
in regards of Matthew 12:32 (from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 32. Whosoever, &c. It was their duty to have a knowledge of the Holy Ghost, and they obstinately refused to admit what was clear and manifest. Though they were ignorant of the divinity of Jesus Christ, and might take him to be merely the son of a poor artizan, they could not be ignorant that the expelling of demons, and miraculous healing of all diseases, were the works of the Holy Ghost. If, therefore, they refused to do penance for the insult offered to the Spirit of God, in the person of Christ, they could not hope to escape condign punishment. (St. Chrysostom, hom. xlii). — Against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; i.e. they who for want of sufficient instruction, were invincibly ignorant that Christ was God, might more easily be brought to the true knowledge and faith of Christ, and so receive forgiveness of their sins: but if he shall speak against the Holy Ghost, i.e. against the Spirit of God in Christ, and shall oppose the known truth, by attributing to the devil that doctrine, and those miracles, which evidently were from the Spirit and the hand of God, that sin shall never be forgiven him. But how is this consistent with the Catholic doctrine and belief, that there is no sin any man commits of which he may not obtain pardon in this life? To this I answer, that in what manner soever we expound this place, it is an undoubted point of Christian faith, that there is no sin which our merciful God is not ready to pardon; no sin, for the remission of which, God hath not left a power in his Church, as it is clearly proved by those words, Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, &c. St. Chrysostom therefore expounds these words, shall not be forgiven them, to imply no more, than shall scarcely, or seldom be forgiven; that is, it is very hard for such sinners to return to God, by a true and sincere repentance and conversion; so that this sentence is like to that (Matthew xix. 26.) where Christ seems to call it an impossible thing for a rich man to be saved. In the same place St. Chrysostom tells us, that some of those who had blasphemed against the Holy Ghost, repented, and had their sins forgiven them. St. Augustine, by this blasphemy against the Spirit, understands the sin of final impenitence, by which an obstinate sinner refuseth to be converted, and therefore lives and dies hardened in his sins. (Witham) — Nor in the world to come. From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. lib. xxi. chap. 13.) and St. Gregory (Dial. iv, chap. 39.) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and consequently that there is a purgatory, or a middle place. (Challoner) — St. Augustine says these words would not be true, if some sins were not forgiven in the world to come; and St. Gregory says, we are to believe from these words in the existence of the fire of purgatory, to expiate our smaller offences, before the day of judgment. St. Isidore and Ven. Bede say the same. St. Bernard, speaking of heretics, says, they do not believe in purgatory: let them then inquire of our Saviour, what he meant by these words. — It is well known that Ven. Bede, on his death-bed, bestowed several small tokens to the monks who were present, that they might remember to pray for his soul in the holy sacrifice of the mass. (Haydock)
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wow all this and still doesn’t make any sense. I
 
ppasa316 said:
wow all this and still doesn’t make any sense. I
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well this coming from scriptures. Douay-Rheims with Haydock Bible Commentary. Maybe your just not willing to accept anything outside Protestantism and open to works of Catholicism??? What denomination of Protestantism are you??? Reread the passage a few time and maybe you might understand. Maybe I just gave you something that was too overwhelming for you to even read
 
tobinatorstark said:
well this coming from scriptures. Douay-Rheims with Haydock Bible Commentary. Maybe your just not willing to accept anything outside Protestantism and open to works of Catholicism??? What denomination of Protestantism are you??? Reread the passage a few time and maybe you might understand. Maybe I just gave you something that was too overwhelming for you to even read
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I am open to the Word Of God. Denomination Christian. Just doesn’t match up to the Word of God
God Bless
 
ppasa316 said:
I am open to the Word Of God. Denomination Christian. Just doesn’t match up to the Word of God
God Bless
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What Christian denomination?? Catholics are considered Christian as well. Christian is the principal not the denomination. Well, I beg to differ that it does match up with the word of God because these books and doctrines were quoted by Christ and the Apostles many times throughout the NT. You wouldn’t have your OT or NT books if the Catholic Church hadn’t determined the canon long before Protestantism existed. On what authority did anyone have to determine a different canon or even separate from Church and deny Christ in such way. Previous posts determined that NT scripture quoted these doctrine and books, so why do you deny the word of God??
 
tobinatorstark said:
What Christian denomination?? Catholics are considered Christian as well. Christian is the principal not the denomination. Well, I beg to differ that it does match up with the word of God because these books and doctrines were quoted by Christ and the Apostles many times throughout the NT. You wouldn’t have your OT or NT books if the Catholic Church hadn’t determined the canon long before Protestantism existed. On what authority did anyone have to determine a different canon or even separate from Church and deny Christ in such way. Previous posts determined that NT scripture quoted these doctrine and books, so why do you deny the word of God??
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You make no sense. Where is scripture to back up what your saying. If not please don’t respond. I will understand.
God Bless
 
ppasa316 said:
You make no sense. Where is scripture to back up what your saying. If not please don’t respond. I will understand.
God Bless
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The book of Wisdom is referenced in the NT. I will provide the passage as soon as I locate it. Also many post by canto in this thread gives reference that these books and doctrine is referenced in the NT. I would suggest looking at the posts in this thread. If you choose not to, then I will assume you are too ignorant to debate properly with me.
 
The book of Wisdom is referenced in the Gospel of St. Matthew.

Wisdom 2: 17-18 is referenced in St. Matthew 27:43.

Wisdom 2:17-18

17 Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be. 18 For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies.

Gospel of Matthew 27:43

43 He trusted in God; let him now deliver him if he will have him; for he said: I am the Son of God.

So yes. What the Protestants call apocrypha and Catholics call deutrocanonical are referred in the NT. All doctrines in the deutrocanonical books were upheld during the time of Christ and Catholics still uphold them and so do some Protestants.
 
Also the book of Tobit (Tobias) talks of burying the dead and also praying for them and to let the dead bury the dead. Luke 9:57-62 is an example of reference to the book of Tobit.
 
tobinatorstark said:
Also the book of Tobit (Tobias) talks of burying the dead and also praying for them and to let the dead bury the dead. Luke 9:57-62 is an example of reference to the book of Tobit.
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I know Tobias buried the dead, but where is the reference to praying to or for the dead?
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
I know Tobias buried the dead, but where is the reference to praying to or for the dead?
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Tobias 12:12 (Douay-Rheims Bible)

12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.
 
tobinatorstark said:
Tobias 12:12 (Douay-Rheims Bible)

12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.
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That’s just a small part of the book of Tobit. If you see the quote before your quote, Raphael say that almsgiving is better than praying. Even your quote doesn’t really have much to do with praying for the dead. Basically Tobias gave Jewish people proper burials.

Here’s more of the quote:

*8 Prayer and fasting are good, but better than either is almsgiving accompanied by righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than abundance with wickedness. It is better to give alms than to store up gold;
9
for almsgiving saves one from death and expiates every sin. Those who regularly give alms shall enjoy a full life;
10
but those habitually guilty of sin are their own worst enemies.
11
"I will now tell you the whole truth; I will conceal nothing at all from you. I have already said to you, ‘A king’s secret it is prudent to keep, but the works of God are to be made known with due honor.’
12
5 I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.
13
When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead,
  • Prayer . . . fasting . . . almsgiving . . . righteousness: these, together with the proper attitude toward wealth, are treated in great detail by Christ our Lord in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 6). 9 for almsgiving saves one from death and expiates every sin. Those who regularly give alms shall enjoy a full life;
 
consider this from the Haydock Bible Commentary as well

Ver. 11. I. Greek, “I will not hide from you any word or thing. I said then, It is good to conceal the mystery of the king, but glorious to manifest the works of God. And now, when thou and thy daughter-in-law, Sarra, did pray, I brought forward the memorial of your prayer before the holy one.” (Haydock) — The angels are represented as God’s ministers, offering our prayers to him, Apocalypse viii. 3. (Calmet) (St. Augustine) (Worthington) — Philo styles them ambassadors. Socrates says, “every demon (or good spirit) is between God and mortals.” (Plutarch) — Inter homines cælicolasque, vectores hinc precum, inde donorum. (Apuleius de Deo Socrat.) (Calmet) — Greek continues, “and when thou didst bury the dead, in like manner, I was present with thee; when thou didst not delay to rise and leave thy dinner, that going thou mightest cover the dead; in thy good work, thou wast not hidden from me: but I was with thee. And,” &c., ver. 14. (Haydock)

Proper Burial and prayer for the dead (Saints included)
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
That’s just a small part of the book of Tobit. If you see the quote before your quote, Raphael say that almsgiving is better than praying. Even your quote doesn’t really have much to do with praying for the dead. Basically Tobias gave Jewish people proper burials.

Here’s more of the quote:

8 Prayer and fasting are good, but better than either is almsgiving accompanied by righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than abundance with wickedness.* It is better to give alms than to store up gold; **
9
for almsgiving saves one from death and expiates every sin. Those who regularly give alms shall enjoy a full life;
10
but those habitually guilty of sin are their own worst enemies.
11
"I will now tell you the whole truth; I will conceal nothing at all from you. I have already said to you, ‘A king’s secret it is prudent to keep, but the works of God are to be made known with due honor.’
12
5 I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.
13
When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead,
  • Prayer . . . fasting . . . almsgiving . . . righteousness: these, together with the proper attitude toward wealth, are treated in great detail by Christ our Lord in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 6). 9 for almsgiving saves one from death and expiates every sin. Those who regularly give alms shall enjoy a full life;
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Just how is storing up gold praying?? That is what I am gathering from your post. I could be wrong too. Everything after * , that your comments or from a biblical source or what??
 
tobinatorstark said:
Just how is storing up gold praying?? That is what I am gathering from your post. I could be wrong too. Everything after * , that your comments or from a biblical source or what??
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it’s from:
usccb.org/nab/bible/tobit/tobit12.htm

My point is that you are making a big deal about praying for the dead, and your sources are weak, especially in the case of Tobit.

My point is that Raphael was more concerned about helping the poor, and healing the sick in this book.

Praying for the dead was not really even mentioned. Actually, I think Raphael heard Tobias’s and his wife’s prayers regarding their son and his safe return.
 
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