Praying in Latin

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ConstantineTG said:
And here I am thinking that it was the name of Jesus Christ that exorcises the Devil. I guess St. Luke got it wrong in Acts when he said St. Paul said, “in the Name of Jesus Christ I command you to get out of her.” It should have read, “in this language I speak (which is Latin), I command you to get out of her.” 👍
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C’mon. You know this is a straw man. In all fairness, you really should admit that you are just being ridiculous here and are not proposing a real argument. If someone said that Latin was the only language that drove out demons then you’d have a valid argument, but obviously your statement is not addressing reality here. If Latin is *more effective *at driving away demons because of its connection with the papacy and the unity of the Roman Church, both of which the devil detests and craves to destroy, and because of its constant usage to drive out demons for nearly 2000 years, then it’s simply more effective in that regard not solely effective. Obviously prayers of exorcism can be prayed effectively in any language and no one denies this reality or ever implied such.

For the sake of honesty and full disclosure, would you please answer whether you are intentionally misrepresenting the opposing arguments or whether you just truly do not understand them?
 
una_fides said:
C’mon. You know this is a straw man. In all fairness, you really should admit that you are just being ridiculous here and are not proposing a real argument. If someone said that Latin was the only language that drove out demons then you’d have a valid argument, but obviously your statement is not addressing reality here. If Latin is *more effective *at driving away demons because of its connection with the papacy and the unity of the Roman Church, both of which the devil detests and craves to destroy, and because of its constant usage to drive out demons for nearly 2000 years, then it’s simply more effective in that regard not solely effective. Obviously prayers of exorcism can be prayed effectively in any language and no one denies this reality or ever implied such.

For the sake of honesty and full disclosure, would you please answer whether you are intentionally misrepresenting the opposing arguments or whether you just truly do not understand them?
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It is not a strawman. It is called sarcasm.

A strawman is making a claim that language has an effect on the efficacy of prayers and rites.
 
There is little use of praying in Latin unless you know the words that you are praying. If you do know, well that’s a good thing and gets you a little closer to the exact meaning of the original prayers which were written in Latin.
 
ConstantineTG said:
It is not a strawman. It is called sarcasm.

A strawman is making a claim that language has an effect on the efficacy of prayers and rites.
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Actually that’s not a straw man at all. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the term?

“A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.”

yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

“By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone’s argument, it’s much easier to present your own position as being reasonable or valid. This kind of dishonesty not only undermines rational discourse, it also harms one’s own position because it brings your credibility into question”

Please explain how arguing that–as you put it–“language has an effect on the efficacy of prayers and rites” is a straw man fallacy as you just claimed.

Also obviously I would love if you or anyone on this thread could please cite any concrete evidence, clear logical reasoning, or credible expert or authoritative testimony in support of the anti-Latin position.
 
roveau said:
There is little use of praying in Latin unless you know the words that you are praying.
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Three-year olds probably don’t know the meaning of the words of the Our Father/Pater Noster in English or Latin but their prayers are still valid. Understanding takes time but it usually requires repetition many times. No one is born knowing the words they will be praying later.
 
roveau said:
There is little use of praying in Latin unless you know the words that you are praying. If you do know, well that’s a good thing and gets you a little closer to the exact meaning of the original prayers which were written in Latin.
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I understand where you’re coming from, but interestingly, I’ve found and I’ve also had others share with me this same experience, that by praying the prayers in Latin even when they are not understood that you eventually pick up the meaning of the words more and more. Seminarians who pray in Latin are instructed, as they are first learning the language, to try to pick out certain meanings here and there and pray them intently while going through their prayers. Obviously, as anyone who prays the rosary knows well, you don’t need to know and understand and intend every single word you pray. It’s more about your intention and the focus of your mind. What so many people who pray in Latin have found and discovered is the ability to actually increase meditation. It has something to do with the fact that it’s a sacred language and knowing its spiritual history, its intimate connection with the Mass and the original sacrifice at Calvary and with the papacy itself obviously helps as well! 🙂
 
LilyM said:
And of course Our Lord got it equally wrong when He singularly failed to use Latin in any of His successful exorcisms - not to mention when He told His disciples that it was prayer and fasting, rather than the use of Latin, that was needed to drive out really stubborn devils.

I’d be interested to examine how fasting is emplayed among those exorcisst who also (and quite possibly coincidentally) use Latin - it wouldn’t surprise me a bit to find that they do more fasting - in which case their success may not be due to use of Latin at all.
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Are you a protestant? I only ask because you keep citing the infant Church as if it was the only valid source to argue from and as if the Church’s 2000 years of history after that somehow do not count and along with that as if the Church’s magisterial authority is non-existent.

And regarding your second part, what exorcists have specifically said is they can tell the immediate reaction from the demon when Latin is used as opposed to a vernacular or other language.
 
Latin gets you out of the everyday and into the spiritual world. Using it is a statement of intent: “I am doing something special here”. It a simple language, it’s musical, it has a lot of history and it’s intimately associated with the Roman Catholic Church.
*
“Domine, exaudi orationem meam, et clamor meus ad te veniat …”* Terrifc stuff!

One could do a very interesting socio-psychological study on “Anything But Latin - The Peculiar Aversion To Its Own Language In the Roman Catholic Church, 1940 - 2012”
 
una_fides said:
Actually that’s not a straw man at all. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the term?

“A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.”

yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

“By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone’s argument, it’s much easier to present your own position as being reasonable or valid. This kind of dishonesty not only undermines rational discourse, it also harms one’s own position because it brings your credibility into question”

Please explain how arguing that–as you put it–“language has an effect on the efficacy of prayers and rites” is a straw man fallacy as you just claimed.

Also obviously I would love if you or anyone on this thread could please cite any concrete evidence, clear logical reasoning, or credible expert or authoritative testimony in support of the anti-Latin position.
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You misrepresented your opposition. The devil doesn’t care about Latin. In fact back where I am from, witchcraft incantations are done in Latin to summon the devil.
 
una_fides said:
lol. good one!! 🙂

Wouldn’t they need an emperor to send out the first email blast to everyone though?
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They meet on need. They don’t meet just because they want to have coffee together and chat. They can do that but they don’t call it a council.
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
Latin gets you out of the everyday and into the spiritual world. Using it is a statement of intent: “I am doing something special here”. It a simple language, it’s musical, it has a lot of history and it’s intimately associated with the Roman Catholic Church.
*
“Domine, exaudi orationem meam, et clamor meus ad te veniat …”* Terrifc stuff!

One could do a very interesting socio-psychological study on “Anything But Latin - The Peculiar Aversion To Its Own Language In the Roman Catholic Church, 1940 - 2012”
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If Latin gets you into the spiritual realm then our courts, doctors offices, hospitals and biology labs must all be a very close second to our churches as the holiest places on the planet, because they all ring to the sound of plenty of Latin. Not to mention exceedingly Catholic too.

‘Domine exaudi orationem meam’ is great, I am not in the slightest bit averse to it. I just wonder what it is about ‘Lord, graciously hear my prayer’ that you find so awful. Why you feel the need to denigrate the language of Shakespeare, Milton, Coleridge, Whitman and Dickinson so.

English can sing trippingly o’er the tongue as beautifully as any other language. And can elevate one to the spiritual plane too. We Australians have a term ‘cultural cringe’, which describes extremely well the sense I’m getting from some of you that we somehow ought to be ashamed of our native language and culture, that it is somehow less than noble and worthy - in spite of its rich and glorious history. Why?

I propose my own equally interesting counterstudy on ‘anything but English - the peculiar loathing of their own language among the English-speaking Roman Catholic world.’
 
roveau said:
There is little use of praying in Latin unless you know the words that you are praying. If you do know, well that’s a good thing and gets you a little closer to the exact meaning of the original prayers which were written in Latin.
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When you say “original prayers” what do you mean?

Not all prayers were originally in Latin. The Our Father comes from the Gospels whose original language is Greek.

None of the prayers in the Byzantine rite were ever in Latin.

You have to be very careful when you make statements such as this.
 
LilyM said:
If Latin gets you into the spiritual realm then our courts, doctors offices, hospitals and biology labs must all be a very close second to our churches as the holiest places on the planet, because they all ring to the sound of plenty of Latin. Not to mention exceedingly Catholic too.

‘Domine exaudi orationem meam’ is great, I am not in the slightest bit averse to it. I just wonder what it is about ‘Lord, graciously hear my prayer’ that you find so awful. Why you feel the need to denigrate the language of Shakespeare, Milton, Coleridge, Whitman and Dickinson so.

English can sing trippingly o’er the tongue as beautifully as any other language. And can elevate one to the spiritual plane too. We Australians have a term ‘cultural cringe’, which describes extremely well the sense I’m getting from some of you that we somehow ought to be ashamed of our native language and culture, that it is somehow less than noble and worthy - in spite of its rich and glorious history. Why?

I propose my own equally interesting counterstudy on ‘anything but English - the peculiar loathing of their own language among the English-speaking Roman Catholic world.’
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I have to say, I think you’re proving my point here. Your stance is peculiar, especially in a Traditional Catholicism forum.

Here are some reasons why I am pro Latin: English is constantly mutating … Anglo-Saxon was/is a pretty salty language … English is the common language … Removing things Roman from Christianity was part of the Protestant project … 1500-plus years of hymns and prayers … The Tridentine Mass … Reports that devils react unfavourably to it … Bland English translations … It’s educational … It’s simple … it’s good engineering to use proven technology and not ‘reinvent the wheel’.

Et cetera, et cetera.
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
Latin gets you out of the everyday and into the spiritual world. Using it is a statement of intent: “I am doing something special here”. It a simple language, it’s musical, it has a lot of history and it’s intimately associated with the Roman Catholic Church.
*
“Domine, exaudi orationem meam, et clamor meus ad te veniat …”* Terrifc stuff!

One could do a very interesting socio-psychological study on “Anything But Latin - The Peculiar Aversion To Its Own Language In the Roman Catholic Church, 1940 - 2012”
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If you really want to get out of the everyday and into the spiritual world, go visit the dying at a nursing home. They couldn’t care less if you pray in Latin. And you would be doing something very special, as you say.
 
clem456 said:
If you really want to get out of the everyday and into the spiritual world, go visit the dying at a nursing home. They couldn’t care less if you pray in Latin. And you would be doing something very special, as you say.
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Guys, I think you’re proving my point, here 🙂
 
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