Praying in Latin

[ConstantineTG]

Disclaimer: I agree with your overall point of not idolizing a language.

That said, it is clear that language did play a role in the development of somewhat different theologies between East and West in the early Church. I would argue that the role of language is equal to or greater than the role of culture. Greek simply has more ways of talking about theological concepts. Latin-speakers were sidelined for four centuries in the development of theological thought because translating Greek theological texts into Latin was virtually impossible… Latin just didn’t have the philosophical range of vocabulary for it.

Which is once again a great reason not to idolize a language. Greek, in many ways, can be considered a “superior” theological language.

There were also different schools of thought, different philosophies. I don’t think language along can persuade thought. Look at English speaking countries for example, one thing can be expressed using different words. But the different really is not the words used but the culture. Australians are different from Canadians which are different from Americans which are different from the British. They can still talk to each other and express similar thought, but words do have cultural concepts as well that one culture may have an expanded meaning whilst the other is not. Language, any language, is not precise unlike mathematics.

I’m listening to an Orthodox bible study over a podcast and the priest explains some of the words in scripture in its original Greek. More often he has to explain not only what the word means but also the cultural context. Why did he say it this way, what does he mean by it? Even if you can grasp the meaning of the word alone, sometimes it is not enough.

 

[Southwell]

Can’t the same argument be made for those who insist only English be allowed in the liturgy and public prayers, allowing for nothing else? The percentage of those trying to “impose” even a small amount of Latin is far, far smaller.

I wasn’t going to get involved, But, anyone who says the mass. Should be only in the vernacular is in opposition to VC II and several popes including John XXIII of blessed memory. But this has all been covered B4!!!

For all those Eastern Rite nay sayers, in the EF mass we Latins pray in Greek; kerie. So let us pray. In Latin if we desire!!

Lastly, Jesus, remember Him, He said a couple of things; “love your neighbor as yourself” and “He who doesn’t gather, scatters”. Pray about it, you choose the language, God will understand. Then, pray for each other, friends, enemies, especially enemies, Greeks, Latins, , believes, unbelievers, I will be praying for you all!!!

 

[IbnFiktur]

There were also different schools of thought, different philosophies. I don’t think language along can persuade thought. Look at English speaking countries for example, one thing can be expressed using different words. But the different really is not the words used but the culture. Australians are different from Canadians which are different from Americans which are different from the British. They can still talk to each other and express similar thought, but words do have cultural concepts as well that one culture may have an expanded meaning whilst the other is not. Language, any language, is not precise unlike mathematics.

I’m listening to an Orthodox bible study over a podcast and the priest explains some of the words in scripture in its original Greek. More often he has to explain not only what the word means but also the cultural context. Why did he say it this way, what does he mean by it? Even if you can grasp the meaning of the word alone, sometimes it is not enough.

I think we’re just splitting hairs here, and I think we generally agree. I guess I’m tackling the issue from a historical perspective, and you’re tackling it from an anthropological perspective.

I’m basically saying that Latin was not widely used as a language of theological thought until the 5th century due to its inherent lack of a natural vocabulary that could be readily used to precisely define theological concepts. Greek did have this capability, and as such most early Christian writing was in Greek, and inaccessible to the wider Western Latin-speaking public. This no doubt led to early differences between Eastern and Western Christianity.

Your point about the anthropological significance of culture is well-taken as well. So I guess I’m not disagreeing, just adding another potential significant factor.

 

[FloridaJoan]

New website for praying in Latin full of countless prayers and resources:
sites.google.com/site/prayinglatin/

Explains why to pray in Latin, how to pray in Latin, and has sections with many prayers, meditations, as well as audio. Definitely worth checking out and forwarding to anyone who may have interest!

Una Fides,

Thank you for posting this, I also bookmarked it. I have recently acquired the Baronius Press Brevarium Romanum and am trying to resurrect my 4 years of Latin in HS ( many moons ago ). Praying the Rosary in Latin is appealing and next on the list.

 

[Equites_Christi]

I think we can stop the fighting by agreeing on two things:

1. Latin is an important part of Catholic culture and spirituality and has been a part of the Church for centuries, and as such deserves preservation and respect.
2. People should be free to pray or attend Mass in whatever language helps them best be in a prayerful state of mind. Latin, English, Hindi, Quenya, you name it.

The reason we get “Latin imperialists” is because - let’s face it - the Church at the parish level has done a really ****** job of preserving Latin. So when people discover it and like it (and see how it has been forgotten) they go nuts.

I think we can agree that Latin need not and indeed should not be imposed, but it ought to be offered more readily and treated as an important part of the Church; a living and viable discipline, not a secret or a relic.

 

[IbnFiktur]

Quenya, you name it.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m listening to an Orthodox bible study over a podcast and the priest explains some of the words in scripture in its original Greek. More often he has to explain not only what the word means but also the cultural context. Why did he say it this way, what does he mean by it? Even if you can grasp the meaning of the word alone, sometimes it is not enough.

I can name a couple of Protestant ministers who can present quite a good sermon with their knowledge of Greek and Latin. And just like with your priest they are not only very effective but extremely interesting.

I believe it was in another forum which I stated that the English language is good for analysis and commentary. But an extremely poor one for translating into. I think we’ve already seen the disasterous effects of trying to use English as a basis for other translations, but unless more start learning EL or KG, we’ll have no choice.

 

[domandcarols]

New website for praying in Latin full of countless prayers and resources:
sites.google.com/site/prayinglatin/

Explains why to pray in Latin, how to pray in Latin, and has sections with many prayers, meditations, as well as audio. Definitely worth checking out and forwarding to anyone who may have interest!

Thanks for the link!

 

[una_fides]

What has got up your nose? I’m pretty sure the members of the 22 other Churches have never used nor see the need to use Latin.

Praying in Latin is no more efficacious than praying in any other language!

No one said eastern Churches that are in union with Rome have a “need” to use Latin. Please re-read my post. I said that it would not hurt them and could benefit them but never said they “needed” to do so.

And many popes and saints would disagree with you that praying in Latin is no different than any other language. No other language can boast the things the Latin language can. It is the language of the Holy See, the Mother of all other Churches that has been used by the Church in all her official documents and her liturgy for over 1500 years. Thistle, if you haven’t already, I strongly suggest reading the content of this page Why Pray in Latin. Many of the titles are hyper-linked to the full text sources that contain even more information.

Finally, I challenge you to find me any pope that said this about any other language:
“Latin…elicit a profound sense of the Eucharistic Mystery”

• John Paul II, Dominicae Cenae 10, 1980.

When something has been so often repeated by popes throughout the centuries and is contained in its Church Councils such as Trent and even Vatican II, it becomes clear that it is the Church’s official teaching and not just some personal opinion or preference. There is clearly something special about praying in this language.

 

[Faithdancer]

You probably don’t know this but while it is the “Official” language of the Holy See, the working language of the Holy See is Italian. I would think the reasons are obvious.

My own Mass preference is the OF Mass… in Latin

But I recognize that this is a personal preference, and not in any way shape or form mandatory for a Mass to be beautiful. In fact some of the Masses that reached me the most were simple OF, spoken Masses in French, in particular the 7 am weekday Mass at St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal. Quiet Masses, only 25 minutes long, with a handful of regulars. Go into the church in the dark, come out of the church at sunrise with the city waking at your feet (for those who don’t know the locale, the Oratory is on the northwest flank of Mount Royal offering a splendid view of the city below). In particular when the rector was presiding and would give one of his short, incisive, one or two sentence homilies that would stick with you all day. Alas a job change means I can no longer attend.

God reaches us in many ways and in many languages. Latin words to Gregorian chant to me is pure poetic beauty. But I have to recognize that’s not for everyone.

That sounds like a beautiful and inspring morning Mass, OraLabora. I have long wanted to visit Montreal. My best language after English is French, so I would enjoy hearing les accents Quebecoises. God bless, and I hope it works out for you to attend St. Joseph’s again soon!

 

[una_fides]

Sounds like a cultish claim to me. Is there any source to prove this as taught by someone authoritative like a Church Father, Pope, etc.?

Interesting how your religious status has changed from this morning being Eastern Orthodox to now hiding it. Any reason? If I could cite you a pope would that honestly settle the case for you?

And no nothing “cultish” about the claim that Latin has a special character about it in driving away the demonic. If you want to find out about something you ask the experts in the field right? Who would you ask as to whether Latin is more effective in exorcisms than the vulgar tongue? How about the ones in the field who are experts? They have spoken, and the Vatican’s chief exorcist has spoken and he has clearly said that the Latin language, all things being equal, is more effective at driving away the demonic. You can believe what you want on it, but I’m going to take his opinion on that since he is the expert, and I can’t say I’ve been involved in too many exorcisms in my life to know.

 

[una_fides]

In Pentecost, the 120 spoke in tongues of different languages. They did not speak in one language and everyone else understood one language. Each person overhearing the 120 heard what was said in their own language, not a common language.

I think you misunderstood what the source was saying. It was saying that Latin is able to help all to understand the same message universally at once. It was not saying that everyone spoke in one language at Pentecost. The point made about that miracle was that everyone understood the same message universally, and this was an undoing of the havoc at the tower of babel where everyone was unable to communicate together.

 

[una_fides]

Your post is, at best, intemperate, and at worst, offensive and demeaning. You might perhaps explain just why you feel Eastern Catholics might benefit from departing from nearly 2,000 years of cultural and religious tradition to embrace an alien language. It was just this kind of cultural imperialism that prevented the growth of the Church in China back in the day of the early Jesuit missionaries. Not everyone who feels people should be free to speak to God in their own language, instead of limiting their prayers to rote passages in a language they do not not understand, is in fact an “enemy of Rome.”

Hmm… well Tarpeian I think you clearly misunderstood what I wrote. Please re-read my post. I never said Eastern Catholics should “depart from nearly 2000 years of cultural tradition to embrace an alien language.” All I said was that learning to pray in Latin would not hurt them, and this comment was made in the context of explaining that there was no need for Thistle’s comment in the first place since praying in Latin had nothing to do really with the eastern Churches, and he was clearly just trying to pick a fight. You seem to be anti-Latin. Do you agree with the saints and popes on the benefits of Latin or do you demur?

 

[IbnFiktur]

Do you agree with the saints and popes on the benefits of Latin or do you demur?

I’m sure many Greek-speaking Saints of the early Church would have said that it would benefit the faithful to learn Greek.

I believe the Popes were probably directing their comments to Latin-rite Catholics. I can’t say this for sure, but I see no reason not to encourage Catholics of the Latin rite to learn the language of their rite’s heritage.

I could say with equal (possibly greater) fervor that Latin Catholics would do well to learn Greek…

And I say that as a Latin Catholic.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think you misunderstood what the source was saying. It was saying that Latin is able to help all to understand the same message universally at once. It was not saying that everyone spoke in one language at Pentecost. The point made about that miracle was that everyone understood the same message universally, and this was an undoing of the havoc at the tower of babel where everyone was unable to communicate together.

And how does Latin help that? Hardly anyone speaks Latin anymore. You’d still have to translate it to whatever vernacular it is.

Interesting how your religious status has changed from this morning being Eastern Orthodox to now hiding it. Any reason? If I could cite you a pope would that honestly settle the case for you?

First, my “Religion” didn’t say I am Orthodox. I am not. It used to say “Orthodox Catholic Christian”.

Second, I’m not hiding anything. Perhaps the unicode is not appearing properly on your browser, but one character unicode is basically the 3-bar cross:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/thumb.php?f=OrthodoxCross.jpg&width=75

And no nothing “cultish” about the claim that Latin has a special character about it in driving away the demonic. If you want to find out about something you ask the experts in the field right? Who would you ask as to whether Latin is more effective in exorcisms than the vulgar tongue? How about the ones in the field who are experts? They have spoken, and the Vatican’s chief exorcist has spoken and he has clearly said that the Latin language, all things being equal, is more effective at driving away the demonic. You can believe what you want on it, but I’m going to take his opinion on that since he is the expert, and I can’t say I’ve been involved in too many exorcisms in my life to know.

It is cultish because you assign power to the language. Power to drive away demons come from God alone. To say that Latin has a hand in it is idolizing Latin.

 

[IbnFiktur]

And how does Latin help that? Hardly anyone speaks Latin anymore. You’d still have to translate it to whatever vernacular it is.

I think he is arguing that everyone should learn Latin.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think he is arguing that everyone should learn Latin.

Fat chance. When was the last time everyone in the world spoke a common language? And I’m talking about the literal everybody, not “the whole world” in Roman lingo which means only the Roman Empire.

 

[una_fides]

thistle is right. The article is not official Church teaching.

Are you really thistle in disguise or something? Perhaps a counter identity? just saying
The article clearly cites official Church teaching. Numerous popes, saints, and even Church Councils have taught on the benefits and necessity to preserve the Latin language in prayer. You can’t find that about any other language. No matter how much you may hate or despise this language, Rome has spoken.

“Latin must be esteemed ‘a treasure … of incomparable worth.’”
(Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia, 1962.)

Vatican II:
“36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
…
Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together **in Latin **those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”

Vatican II in these documents also refers to the Western Church as the “Latin Church” and clearly states that we are Catholics of the “Latin rite.” Our liturgy is officially a Latin liturgy. The vernacular languages are the exception to the rule according to the Council. (Obviously practically speaking today this has changed, but that does not mean it has to be this way or that it was intended by the Council, other than perhaps by the spurious “spirit of vatican II”.) Pope Benedict has called for a return to the documents of Vatican II and the actual intent of the Council Fathers in his reform of the reform. He has also stated on numerous occasions that the Council has not yet been implemented.

 

[una_fides]

I’m sure many Greek-speaking Saints of the early Church would have said that it would benefit the faithful to learn Greek.

I believe the Popes were probably directing their comments to Latin-rite Catholics. I can’t say this for sure, but I see no reason not to encourage Catholics of the Latin rite to learn the language of their rite’s heritage.

I could say with equal (possibly greater) fervor that Latin Catholics would do well to learn Greek…

And I say that as a Latin Catholic.

It can certainly be beneficial to learn the Greek language, but praying in the Greek language is another matter. The popes were not imploring merely the learning of the language solely as some academic exercise (although obviously there are many academic benefits). There is a certain incarnation of the Church’s liturgical life and tradition that takes place by praying in Latin. It connects us with the saints who have prayed that way throughout the ages. Thus there are both the academic and spiritual benefits that must be considered.

 

[una_fides]

And how does Latin help that? Hardly anyone speaks Latin anymore. You’d still have to translate it to whatever vernacular it is.
It’s a benefit of learning Latin. You can attend a Latin liturgy anywhere in the world and be completely at home. You can read the Church’s documents in their original language and understand them. Again many many benefits for Latin Rite Catholics to learn the Latin language.
ConstantineTG;9691944:

It is cultish because you assign power to the language. Power to drive away demons come from God alone. To say that Latin has a hand in it is idolizing Latin.

Whoah buddy. Calm down here. First, I was not the one who said these things. I was merely citing reports from numerous exorcists including the Vatican’s chief exorcist, all experts on this matter. Second, Latin is the language of the Church. If God has endowed this language with an additional ability at driving away evil, whether through its constant usage in the liturgy and for expelling demons throughout the centuries or simply by an act of the will of God himself, that is His business. If you don’t want to believe the exorcists, you don’t have to, but no need to take the argument to an unnecessary extreme.