Praying in Latin

[IbnFiktur]

It can certainly be beneficial to learn the Greek language, but praying in the Greek language is another matter. The popes were not imploring merely the learning of the language solely as some academic exercise (although obviously there are many academic benefits). There is a certain incarnation of the Church’s liturgical life and tradition that takes place by praying in Latin. It connects us with the saints who have prayed that way throughout the ages. Thus there are both the academic and spiritual benefits that must be considered.

So Latin is special… because it’s the language Western saints prayed in? What about the languages Jesus prayed in? Or the language the early Church’s Greek saints and martyrs prayed in? Or the language the Nicene Creed was composed in? Or the language the authors of the New Testament wrote in? Or the languages the first Masses were said in?

I’m sorry, but your argument is far too ethno-centric (not precisely the right term, but it fits the sense). You seem to be implying that only Latin-speaking Saints are worth connecting with.

 

[una_fides]

I think he is arguing that everyone should learn Latin.

I was just saying it woudn’t hurt anyone to learn to pray in Latin and more specifically for Latin Rite Catholics that there are countless benefits. I do think everyone should give an honest listening to the intent of our current Holy Father who urged all Catholics to learn and recite the Church’s most common prayers in Latin.

 

[una_fides]

So Latin is special… because it’s the language Western saints prayed in? What about the languages Jesus prayed in? Or the language the early Church’s Greek saints and martyrs prayed in? Or the language the Nicene Creed was composed in? Or the language the authors of the New Testament wrote in? Or the languages the first Masses were said in?

I’m sorry, but your argument is far too ethno-centric (not precisely the right term, but it fits the sense). You seem to be implying that only Latin-speaking Saints are worth connecting with.

You are trying to restate an argument as if it were the one I proposed. That is certainly not the only thing that makes the Latin language noteworthy. Do you agree with what the popes have said about the Latin language?

Would you say it is

• “a treasure of incomparable worth?”
• "a most effective bond, binding the Church of today with that of the past and of the future in wonderful continuity"
• “an effective safeguard against the corruption of true doctrine”
• “worthy of being defended with great care”
• “For the Latin Church…the most abundant source of Christian civilization and the richest treasury of piety”
• the language which can be called “truly catholic”*
• *"Of its very nature… most suitable for promoting every form of culture among peoples … gives rise to no jealousies… does not favor any one nation, but presents itself with equal impartiality to all and is equally acceptable to all
• the only language that has been “consecrated through constant use by the Apostolic See, the mother and teacher of all Churches”

Notice also the significance that a pope referred to the Latin language as being “consecrated.” This word, so familiar to us Catholics, by its very definition means “to make sacred.”

Lastly, a quote from Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia: “Since ‘every Church must assemble around the Roman Church,’ and since the Supreme Pontiffs have ‘true episcopal power, ordinary and immediate, over each and every Church and each and every Pastor, as well as over the faithful’ of every rite and language, it seems particularly desirable that the instrument of mutual communication be uniform and universal”

 

[IbnFiktur]

No one is arguing that Latin doesn’t have a special place in the Catholic Church. We are arguing that it is dangerous to put it on a pedestal, and you risk marginalizing Eastern liturgies and prayers by claiming some sort of linguistic superiority. You are essentially saying that other traditions, some of whom use the language of Christ Himself, are inferior in their own liturgies in prayers… They must learn Latin, but Latins need not learn Aramaic?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Thanks for the info I think most of us here now know this after being told repeatedly by the Eastern crowd

If that was so then you would think that we would stop seeing comments about how Latin is efficacious for prayer by allCatholics.

Or do the “Eastern crowd” not fall under that subset of Christians?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Are you really thistle in disguise or something? Perhaps a counter identity? just saying

I can point you to a number of other threads where we were biting each other’s head off. I think given a chance, we would literally do it while discussing said topic.

The article clearly cites official Church teaching. Numerous popes, saints, and even Church Councils have taught on the benefits and necessity to preserve the Latin language in prayer. You can’t find that about any other language. No matter how much you may hate or despise this language, Rome has spoken.

Sure, I don’t dispute that. What I call ridiculous is the assignment of magical properties to the language. That is why I say it is cultish. Only cults make such absurd claims. There is a huge difference between giving Latin a place of honor, and making a ridiculous claim that the devil hates Latin.

“Latin must be esteemed ‘a treasure … of incomparable worth.’”
(Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia, 1962.)

Vatican II:
“36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
…
Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together **in Latin **those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”

Vatican II in these documents also refers to the Western Church as the “Latin Church” and clearly states that we are Catholics of the “Latin rite.” Our liturgy is officially a Latin liturgy. The vernacular languages are the exception to the rule according to the Council. (Obviously practically speaking today this has changed, but that does not mean it has to be this way or that it was intended by the Council, other than perhaps by the spurious “spirit of vatican II”.)

Council of Trent:
CANON IX.–If any one saith … that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only … let him be anathema.

Again, nothing here said makes a ridiculous claim about Latin having power of its own. Nothing in Church teaching says that the devil hates Latin.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Whoah buddy. Calm down here. First, I was not the one who said these things. I was merely citing reports from numerous exorcists including the Vatican’s chief exorcist, all experts on this matter. Second, Latin is the language of the Church. If God has endowed this language with an additional ability at driving away evil, whether through its constant usage in the liturgy and for expelling demons throughout the centuries or simply by an act of the will of God himself, that is His business. If you don’t want to believe the exorcists, you don’t have to, but no need to take the argument to an unnecessary extreme.

Again, God has not endowed languages with power. To believe in such is to believe in idolatry. There is no such thing. Anyone who believes in it are idolizers. Only God has the power.

And where is these numerous reports? Are they authoritative? Its funny because in another thread people were beating each other up because I was citing age old Church tradition and they said it is nonsense because it has not been infallibly declared. Then in this thread suddenly random, anonymous “citings” by “Vatican experts” are acceptable to proclaim some belief valid?

 

[una_fides]

No one is arguing that Latin doesn’t have a special place in the Catholic Church. We are arguing that it is dangerous to put it on a pedestal, and you risk marginalizing Eastern liturgies and prayers by claiming some sort of linguistic superiority. You are essentially saying that other traditions, some of whom use the language of Christ Himself, are inferior in their own liturgies in prayers… They must learn Latin, but Latins need not learn Aramaic?

Would you please respond to whether you agree or disagree with those papal declarations I cited above?

Eastern Catholics who have difficulty accepting that Rome has supreme universal authority over all other Churches will also have difficulty accepting the universality of her language. That fact does not stop the debate on the merits as to whether or not Rome has such authority–which it most certainly does–and neither should it stop us from accepting the teachings of popes regarding the Church’s language and the benefits of praying in Latin.

And yet again you keep posing an imagined argument. No one on here has said that eastern rite Catholics “must learn Latin.” Please stop repeating this. You are wrestling with the air at best. This notion has been injected into this thread in an attempt to derail and distract from the benefits of praying in Latin. This is not the Eastern Catholic forum. This thread was posted in the Traditional Catholic forum for the benefit of those interested in learning more about praying in the universal language of the Latin Church.

 

[una_fides]

If that was so then you would think that we would stop seeing comments about how Latin is efficacious for prayer by allCatholics.

Or do the “Eastern crowd” not fall under that subset of Christians?

Beneficial and absolutely necessary are two entirely different things. I think the comments you are struggling with are the ones coming from popes, such as pope Benedict.

Here is the news report with the explanation:
Pope Benedict XVI urged Catholics around the world to memorize the most common Catholic prayers in Latin.
Learning the prayers in Latin as well as in one’s own language “will help Christian faithful of different languages pray together, especially when they gather for special circumstances,”
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0503776.htm

Please be clear in citing the source of your disagreement.

While we don’t know with certainty based solely on the text of this article whether the pope was only urging all Latin rite Catholics or simply “all Catholics,” the only thing said was that it would not be somehow bad or harmful for an eastern Catholic if one were to chose to learn to pray some common prayers in Latin and thereby embrace their union with Rome. Obviously the Orthodox leaning Christians are not going to like that statement since they are opposed to acknowledging the authority of the pope, but that is most clearly a discussion for another thread. No one on here, however, is saying or even implying that eastern Catholics must learn Latin. Clearly the opposition and in some cases the hatred of the Latin language is manifest when people begin to make up arguments that are not being proposed.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The article clearly cites official Church teaching. Numerous popes, saints, and even Church Councils have taught on the benefits and necessity to preserve the Latin language in prayer. You can’t find that about any other language. No matter how much you may hate or despise this language, Rome has spoken.

You must be careful when ascribing every statement of the Church to be aimed at every Catholic. You must determine who the audience of any document, and even councils at times, to see who is impacted by any such statements.

I would hazard a guess that anything said by the Church and Saints about Latin were directed solely at Latin Catholics and not those of the Eastern Churches who have different traditions.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Beneficial and absolutely necessary are two entirely different things. I think the comments you are struggling with are the ones coming from popes, such as pope Benedict.

I am not struggling with any comments coming from the popes.

As I stated above, I know who their audience is when they make those comments.

They are not directed at the Eastern Churches.

Latin is not in any way beneficial for Eastern Catholics.

How would praying in a language not known or used be beneficial at all?

It is different for the Latin Church as Latin is known, in some cases, and is used.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

I think something to remember is that we are the Roman Catholic Rite. This implies Rome and Latin are in our tradition, and it would be very beneficial if more Catholics knew our history and learned Latin. The other Rites do not really have a tradition of Latin in them so it doesn’t particularly make sense to make them have Latin. They are of course free to learn all the Latin they want if they wish to, but to me it does not make a lot of sense to urge those with no Latin traditions or ties to make this a priority.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think something to remember is that we are the Roman Catholic Rite. This implies Rome and Latin are in our tradition, and it would be very beneficial if more Catholics knew our history and learned Latin. The other Rites do not really have a tradition of Latin in them so it doesn’t particularly make sense to make them have Latin. They are of course free to learn all the Latin they want if they wish to, but to me it does not make a lot of sense to urge those with no Latin traditions or ties to make this a priority.

This is a very good statement, nothing wrong with it at all. But I just want to say that I am not arguing against Latin, but rather just calling out the absurd claims that some people are making about Latin. I have been a Roman Catholic for 33 years (from birth) and is canonically still one. I still know more about Roman Catholicism and still often think like a Roman Catholic. I love tradition and I am in full favor of restoring tradition. The problem I have with the link posted is the preposterous claims about magical properties of Latin. As a true Apostolic faith, do we even need to make such a claim? And I can’t even believe that people who claim to adhere to true Apostolic faith would even defend that. “The devil hates Latin.” I mean, c’mon. If that is not idolatry and superstition, I don’t know what is. And I’m not saying people should not use Latin. They can if they want to. Hey, if people want to use Church Slavonic, they should. But if it is out of a belief like that, it has no basis in Apostolic tradition or teaching by anyone in the entire 2000 history of the Church. That is magic or superstition and has no place in the Catholic faith.

 

[TimothyH]

How do I do contemplateive prayer in Latin?

-Tim-

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

How do I do contemplateive prayer in Latin?

-Tim-

Well technically we can not “do” contemplative prayer. Contemplation is a gift from God we can do nothing to receive it.

We can prepare ourselves for it and enter into a space for it, but it is up to God if we get it or not. We do not even have to do those things to receive it if that is the will of God.

 

[TimothyH]

Well technically we can not “do” contemplative prayer. Contemplation is a gift from God we can do nothing to receive it.

We can prepare ourselves for it and enter into a space for it, but it is up to God if we get it or not. We do not even have to do those things to receive it if that is the will of God.

I understand Brother. I should have used the little sarcasm smiley.

My point was, that in my times of most intense prayer, the times when I wept after having recieved the Eucharist, the time when I was on all fours hyperventilating and begging God for help, these were beyond language.

Our Father, who art in Heaven…

OK, yes, go ahead and argue.

But I see women coming up to venerate a relic of St. Jude at a novena, people who have children dying of cancer and kids who’s father’s have just abandoned them two weeks ago, and the tears in their eyes and the longing they have in their heart for help doesn’t have a language. The words we say in the prayers together and the the “O Salutaris” we sing have language, but it seems to me that some prayer is simply beyond any language.

-Tim-

 

[OraLabora]

I understand Brother. I should have used the little sarcasm smiley.

My point was, that in my times of most intense prayer, the times when I wept after having recieved the Eucharist, the time when I was on all fours hyperventilating and begging God for help, these were beyond language.

Our Father, who art in Heaven…

OK, yes, go ahead and argue.

But I see women coming up to venerate a relic of St. Jude at a novena, people who have children dying of cancer and kids who’s father’s have just abandoned them two weeks ago, and the tears in their eyes and the longing they have in their heart for help doesn’t have a language. The words we say in the prayers together and the the “O Salutaris” we sing have language, but it seems to me that some prayer is simply beyond any language.

-Tim-

Prayer from the heart has a universal language. God’s. We feel it; He understands it.

My use of Latin in the Divine Office is no more than an affectation. Aesthetics. But I admit it. It has no special power, other than the power to attract me, it’s for my own pleasure and to help keep my mind sharp when I feel like I’m losing it, like this week, when my wife had to go for a breast biopsy for which we are still awaiting results. To suggest that because it’s in Latin and that makes it more efficacious, is treating Latin like a sort of talisman with magic powers, like some do with sacramentals. It isn’t putting Latin on a pedestal, it is putting ourselves on a pedestal that some how we feel superior because we can pray in Latin while the barely literate poor single mother pleading to God for the next meal for her children can’t.

I really wonder, sometimes, why I come on the Trad forum. So much of what I read here just makes me want to weep. Souls are in trouble, the world is burning, people are suffering, and we’re having discussions on whether or not it is better to pray in Latin… very twisted priorities. Thankfully while we’re busy doing the Pharisee “look at me” schtick, God is listening to the hearts of those who will taste the Beatitudes. At least He gets it.

 

[JillianRose]

Tonight we did latin resposorials!! It was so cool. They said it then we repeated it!! Reminded me of Christmas Eve mass in Chicago with my papa!!

 

[una_fides]

What I call ridiculous is the assignment of magical properties to the language. That is why I say it is cultish. Only cults make such absurd claims. There is a huge difference between giving Latin a place of honor, and making a ridiculous claim that the devil hates Latin.

Do you believe in holy water? That God can endow ordinary water with supernatural qualities as a result of a prayer being attached to it? Or do you think that is “superstitious” too? God uses matter to accomplish supernatural things. God consecrates matter, he makes it holy. If God can do this to physical matter, do you believe it “cultish” to think that he *could *also do this for a language? I think an unbiased mind would at least admit this to be a possibility.

Please respond to this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9692161&postcount=63 Again notice the quote from a Pope who said that the Latin language has been “consecrated.”

Again, nothing here said makes a ridiculous claim about Latin having power of its own. Nothing in Church teaching says that the devil hates Latin.

And certainly nothing in Church teaching contradicts this assertion either. Obviously we are not dealing with a matter that is de fide, but it is the expert testimony of those who deal with these things. You obviously reject their testimony, and in the process you are also essentially calling the Vatican’s chief exorcist “absurd,” “ridiculous,” an “idolator,” and one who promotes “cultish” views. You can have your own opinion and disagree whether Latin is more effective at driving away the demonic, but there is no need to demonize those who disagree with you. (pun intended)

 

[LilyM]

Interesting how your religious status has changed from this morning being Eastern Orthodox to now hiding it. Any reason? If I could cite you a pope would that honestly settle the case for you?

And no nothing “cultish” about the claim that Latin has a special character about it in driving away the demonic. If you want to find out about something you ask the experts in the field right? Who would you ask as to whether Latin is more effective in exorcisms than the vulgar tongue? How about the ones in the field who are experts? They have spoken, and the Vatican’s chief exorcist has spoken and he has clearly said that the Latin language, all things being equal, is more effective at driving away the demonic. You can believe what you want on it, but I’m going to take his opinion on that since he is the expert, and I can’t say I’ve been involved in too many exorcisms in my life to know.

Interesting. Our Lord performed numbers of successful exorcisms in His day, I should think He was more ‘expert’ than all other exorcists put together. He certainly didn’t speak Latin to them. There’s no record of His speaking anything other than the vernacular tongue, in this case Aramaic, to them.