Praying in Latin

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I would hope that wisdom would come with being a “forum elder”.

Just in case you are not aware, these titles are granted based solely on the number of posts one has.

As I claim no right to the title of “Master”.

Not to say that thistle is not wise, I often find that he is.

 

[ProVobis]

Latin is more efficacious in the liturgies of the mass and more efficacious in exorcisms. I’m sure that it is more efficacious in many other aspects of catholic life of prayer and life of the spirit.

I would agree with this as long as the prayers are Church-prescribed Latin.

 

[mangy_dog]

Keep your posts and keep your thread.

 

[ProVobis]

Keep your posts and keep your thread.

I hope I didn’t offend. If you come across any Latin prayers, please share.

 

[una_fides]

The one thing I learned from him and from the writings he recommended is that as one advances in prayer, it becomes a state, not an act. Prayer becomes a constant awareness of God’s presence and a state of constant communication, of dialog with God. … language can never express the longing in the heart for the presence of God.

True, the intention and longing in the heart is at the core of prayer, since all prayer is aimed at uniting us closer to the heart of Jesus. The underlying point that so many popes and the saints are ultimately making when they ardently advocate praying in Latin is that the Latin language is able to propel one further into that state of prayer through the desired fidelity and unity with the Holy See, her traditions, her saints, and the rest of the faithful throughout the world. That does not in any way imply that everyone must learn Latin in order to advance in the spiritual life or a life of prayer. But it does mean that **for the faithful who do learn and do utilize this sacred language that it will be a great source of spiritual help, stability, and encouragement. **

Pray also involves work. Initially, most people begin engaging their personal prayer life by devoting and carving out time in their daily lives: most often morning and night and then times throughout the day. They have to work on it, just like any relationship. The additional effort they put in to learn prayers in Latin can be looked at much like a loving act of penitence, and the more and more we work at it with the desire to please God and unite ourselves with him through his holy Church, the greater and greater our reward will be.

 

[una_fides]

There is a point of contention.

The contention is whether the Holy Father’s comments vis a vis Latin was meant for the members of Eastern Churches who have never used Latin.

When the Holy Father says that it is good for people to know prayers in Latin, he is speaking to Latin Catholics only, not to Byzantine, Melkite, Chaldean, Maronite, Syro-Malabar or members of other Eastern Catholic Chruches who have never used Latin.

Do you have any evidence of this other than your own personal opinion? I mean that sincerely because I would like to see evidence and proof but it seems so far it’s mostly just been opinion and speculation on this particular point.

That’s the point of contention, whether the Popes comments are for all Catholics or just Latin Catholics.

Walk into one of these Churches and start pushing Latin and the best you can hope for is to be politely ignored. It’s extremely insulting to them. I would think that Catholics who call themselves traditional would respect the traditions of these Churches, rather than stating that they have to adapt the traditions of the Latin Church.

I think herein lies the point of confusion. No one to my knowledge is saying that eastern Churches have to “adapt the traditions of the Latin Church.” I can see why eastern Catholics would get defensive if they felt like Latin traditions were being “pushed” on them. If we understand the pope’s comments when publicly referring to “all Catholics” to be directed to all Catholics including those of the eastern rites, then what he is requesting is really not an adoption of Latin traditions or in any way a “latinzing” of the eastern rites. All the pope requested was that all Catholics around the word of every race and tongue to learn a few prayers in Latin in order to be able to all pray together as members of the same Church. All eastern Churches are under the authority of the pope and are members of the Church of which he is the visible head on earth. The Catholic Church teaches and believes that the pope is the vicar of Christ; he is Christ’s representative on earth. Unity with the pope is absolutely essential, and these eastern Churches know that and consequently are in union with the see of Peter, the prince of the apostles. Taking the limited effort needed to learn just a couple of prayers in Latin in order to strengthen that bond of unity within the Church would be extremely beneficial, and that is what the pope is trying to convey. At this point in history when the Church has become so split by division and dissensions, I believe it is more important now than ever for all to unite and what better way to do that then by uniting in prayer together in una voce as shared members of the same Body of Christ.

I recall years ago that the Patriarch of I believe it was the Greek Orthodox Church, correct me if my memory fails me, was visiting with the pope in Rome and that he prayed a Hail Mary in Latin along with the pope. Think about that demonstration of a desire for unity with Rome and at the very least mutual friendship that results from acts like that. Do you think the Patriarch was in any way in danger of losing his patrimony or ethnic heritage by a gesture of friendship? in the same way, members of eastern Churches that are already in full communion with the Holy See would benefit by picking up a Latin prayer or two for when they encounter such an opportune occasion whereby they may demonstrate their unity with the see of Peter. I mean c’mon in the Latin Mass we pray the Kyrie in Greek! What’s the big deal here?! We’re not talking about them praying 3 Latin rosaries a day along with the Divine Office. We’re talking like an Ave Maria. Why all the fuss if that’s all the pope was saying that he wanted all Catholics to do??

 

[mangy_dog]

Please take the time to review these quotes on the importance and immutability of Latin in the Roman Catholic Church.

It [the Traditional Latin Mass] is virtually unchanged since the third century.
John Henry Cardinal Newman, “Callistus”

For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure until the end of time … of its very nature requires a language that is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular.
Pope Pius XI, Officiorum Omnium, 1922

The day the Church abandons her universal tongue [Latin] is the day before she returns to the catacombs.
Pope Pius XII

The use of the Latin language prevailing in a great part of the Church affords at once an imposing sign of unity and an effective safeguard against the corruptions of true doctrine.
Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, 1947, Sec. 60

Latin is the immutable language of the Western Church.
Pope John XXIII

The Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.
Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia, February 22, 1962 (just eight months before the opening of Vatican II), chap. 13

We also, impelled by the weightiest of reasons … are fully determined to restore this language to its position of honor and to do all We can to promote its study and use. The employment of Latin has recently been contested in some quarters, and many are asking what the mind of the Apostolic See is in this matter. We have therefore decided to issue the timely directives contained in this document, so as to ensure that the ancient and uninterrupted use of Latin be maintained and, where necessary, restored.
Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia,
February 22, 1962 (just eight months before the opening of Vatican II), chap. 13

The use of the Latin language … is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
Second Vatican Council, Sacrosanctum Concilium
(Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy), para. 36.1

In accordance with the age-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the Divine Office.
Second Vatican Council, Sacrosanctum Concilium
(Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy), para. 101.1

If the Church is to remain truly the Catholic Church, it is essential to keep a universal tongue.
Cardinal Heenan (1967)

The Latin language is assuredly worthy of being defended with great care instead of being scorned; for the Latin Church it is the most abundant source of Christian civilization and the richest treasury of piety…. We must not hold in low esteem these traditions of your fathers, which were your glory for centuries.
Pope Paul VI, Sacrificium Laudis, August 15, 1966, Epistle to Superiors General of Clerical Religious Institutes Bound to Choir, on the Celebration of the Divine Office in Latin

We cannot permit something that could be the cause of your own downfall, that could be the source of serious loss to you, and that surely would afflict the Church of God with sickness and sadness…. The same Church gives you the mandate to safeguard the traditional dignity, beauty, and gravity of the choral office in both its language [Latin] and its chant…. Obey the commands that a great love for your own ancient observances itself suggests….
Pope Paul VI, Sacrificium Laudis, August 15, 1966,
Epistle to Superiors General of Clerical Religious Institutes Bound to Choir, on the Celebration of the Divine Office in Latin

We address especially the young people: In an epoch when in some areas, as you know, the Latin language and the human values are less appreciated, you must joyfully accept the patrimony of the language which the Church holds in high esteem and must, with energy, make it fruitful. The well-known words of Cicero, “It is not so much excellent to know Latin, as it is a shame not to know it” [Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine, quam turpe nescire (Brutus, xxxvii.140)] in a certain sense are directed to you. We exhort you all to lift up high the torch of Latin which is even today a bond of unity among peoples of all nations.
Pope John Paul II, 1978

Nevertheless, there are also those people who, having been educated on the basis of the old liturgy in Latin, experience the lack of this “one language,” which in all the world was an expression of the unity of the Church and through its dignified character elicited a profound sense of the Eucharistic Mystery. It is therefore necessary to show not only understanding but also full respect towards these sentiments and desires. As far as possible these sentiments and desires are to be accommodated, as is moreover provided for in the new dispositions. The Roman Church has special obligations towards Latin, the splendid language of ancient Rome, and she must manifest them whenever the occasion presents itself.
Pope John Paul II, Dominicae Cenae,
February 24, 1980, sec. 10

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Please take the time to review these quotes on the importance and immutability of Latin in the Roman Catholic Church.

It [the Traditional Latin Mass] is virtually unchanged since the third century.
John Henry Cardinal Newman, “Callistus”

For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure until the end of time … of its very nature requires a language that is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular.
Pope Pius XI, Officiorum Omnium, 1922

The day the Church abandons her universal tongue [Latin] is the day before she returns to the catacombs.
Pope Pius XII

The use of the Latin language prevailing in a great part of the Church affords at once an imposing sign of unity and an effective safeguard against the corruptions of true doctrine.
Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, 1947, Sec. 60

Latin is the immutable language of the Western Church.
Pope John XXIII

The Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.
Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia, February 22, 1962 (just eight months before the opening of Vatican II), chap. 13

We also, impelled by the weightiest of reasons … are fully determined to restore this language to its position of honor and to do all We can to promote its study and use. The employment of Latin has recently been contested in some quarters, and many are asking what the mind of the Apostolic See is in this matter. We have therefore decided to issue the timely directives contained in this document, so as to ensure that the ancient and uninterrupted use of Latin be maintained and, where necessary, restored.
Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia,
February 22, 1962 (just eight months before the opening of Vatican II), chap. 13

The use of the Latin language … is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
Second Vatican Council, Sacrosanctum Concilium
(Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy), para. 36.1

In accordance with the age-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the Divine Office.
Second Vatican Council, Sacrosanctum Concilium
(Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy), para. 101.1

If the Church is to remain truly the Catholic Church, it is essential to keep a universal tongue.
Cardinal Heenan (1967)

The Latin language is assuredly worthy of being defended with great care instead of being scorned; for the Latin Church it is the most abundant source of Christian civilization and the richest treasury of piety…. We must not hold in low esteem these traditions of your fathers, which were your glory for centuries.
Pope Paul VI, Sacrificium Laudis, August 15, 1966, Epistle to Superiors General of Clerical Religious Institutes Bound to Choir, on the Celebration of the Divine Office in Latin

We cannot permit something that could be the cause of your own downfall, that could be the source of serious loss to you, and that surely would afflict the Church of God with sickness and sadness…. The same Church gives you the mandate to safeguard the traditional dignity, beauty, and gravity of the choral office in both its language [Latin] and its chant…. Obey the commands that a great love for your own ancient observances itself suggests….
Pope Paul VI, Sacrificium Laudis, August 15, 1966,
Epistle to Superiors General of Clerical Religious Institutes Bound to Choir, on the Celebration of the Divine Office in Latin

We address especially the young people: In an epoch when in some areas, as you know, the Latin language and the human values are less appreciated, you must joyfully accept the patrimony of the language which the Church holds in high esteem and must, with energy, make it fruitful. The well-known words of Cicero, “It is not so much excellent to know Latin, as it is a shame not to know it” [Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine, quam turpe nescire (Brutus, xxxvii.140)] in a certain sense are directed to you. We exhort you all to lift up high the torch of Latin which is even today a bond of unity among peoples of all nations.
Pope John Paul II, 1978

Nevertheless, there are also those people who, having been educated on the basis of the old liturgy in Latin, experience the lack of this “one language,” which in all the world was an expression of the unity of the Church and through its dignified character elicited a profound sense of the Eucharistic Mystery. It is therefore necessary to show not only understanding but also full respect towards these sentiments and desires. As far as possible these sentiments and desires are to be accommodated, as is moreover provided for in the new dispositions. The Roman Church has special obligations towards Latin, the splendid language of ancient Rome, and she must manifest them whenever the occasion presents itself.
Pope John Paul II, Dominicae Cenae,
February 24, 1980, sec. 10

You can’t pull things out of Church documents in this manner. It is nothing more than proof texting.

You must read in context and understand the whole of it.

I know what the Church has said and I know that it does not mean for every Catholic, that is Catholics who are not of the Latin Church, to pray in Latin.

It doesn’t even encourage the faithful of the Latin Church to pray in Latin, it only encourages them to learn a few standard prayers in Latin.

I have nothing against Latin. We use Latin many days in our daily Mass. We also end almost every prayers (Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, and Mass) with a hymn to Mary in Latin (one a very few occasions we sing the Hail Mary but that is not the norm, the norm is the Flos Carmeli) just like Night Prayer is ended.

 

[una_fides]

You can’t pull things out of Church documents in this manner. It is nothing more than proof texting.

You must read in context and understand the whole of it.

There is also nothing wrong with proof texting. Popes and saints throughout history have done it throughout history to defend the teachings of the Church. Our Blessed Lord himself and the authors of Scripture cited Scriptural texts. The only issue is a problem with they are stripped from their context causing them to mean something different. This issue mainly comes when the texts themselves are vague or could be taken to mean multiple things. The problem mostly comes from quoting Scripture out of context of the clarification of Church teaching. When citing traditional Church teaching itself, however, clarity is often apparent. Unless you can point out where the context would change the meaning of any of those citations, then youre really not proving anything other than perhaps a bias hoping they mean something different in certain circumstances.

Perhaps you are criticizing these citations of Church texts because you do not have any that you can cite that support the position you seem to be advocating against the universal benefits of praying in Latin?

I know what the Church has said and I know that it does not mean for every Catholic, that is Catholics who are not of the Latin Church, to pray in Latin.

You keep making this statement but despite several requests you have not provided any proof at all to support it. If you have such a strongly held opinion, you should really have something more than “I just know” to support it.

It doesn’t even encourage the faithful of the Latin Church to pray in Latin, it only encourages them to learn a few standard prayers in Latin.

Actually you are referring to Pope Benedict XVI’s recent request that all Catholics learn the Church’s most common prayers in Latin. There are other quotes from popes as well to consider.

“We also, impelled by the weightiest of reasons … are fully determined to restore this language to its position of honor and to do all We can to promote its study and use.” Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia

“You must joyfully accept the patrimony of the language which the Church holds in high esteem and must, with energy, make it fruitful. The well-known words of Cicero, “It is not so much excellent to know Latin, as it is a shame not to know it” [Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine, quam turpe nescire (Brutus, xxxvii.140)] in a certain sense are directed to you. We exhort you all to lift up high the torch of Latin which is even today a bond of unity among peoples of all nations.” Pope John Paul II, 1978
(Notice the pope here is encouraging people to not just learn a few prayers in Latin but to actually learn the language itself.)

 

[M-Dent]

There is also nothing wrong with proof texting. Popes and saints throughout history have done it throughout history to defend the teachings of the Church. Our Blessed Lord himself and the authors of Scripture cited Scriptural texts. The only issue is a problem with they are stripped from their context causing them to mean something different. This issue mainly comes when the texts themselves are vague or could be taken to mean multiple things. The problem mostly comes from quoting Scripture out of context of the clarification of Church teaching.

The main problem remains exegesis vs. eisegesis. No Saint was immune. None of us are.

Prooftexting is a very dangerous practice.

 

[ProVobis]

(Notice the pope here is encouraging people to not just learn a few prayers in Latin but to actually learn the language itself.)

And also to read a little Cicero when you’re not praying.

Little known fact: Cicero’s De Officiis (On Duties) was the second book printed after the Gutenberg Bible.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Officiis

 

[ProVobis]

Prooftexting is a very dangerous practice.

It may be but I wouldn’t call citing an entire Apostolic Constitution proof texting. We’re limited in the number of characters we can use in posts.

 

[M-Dent]

New website for praying in Latin full of countless prayers and resources:
sites.google.com/site/prayinglatin/

Explains why to pray in Latin

The website starts with a quote from the Holy Father. The context of his quote is found here. —>
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/june/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20050628_compendium_en.html

Under “Why pray in Latin”

Pope Benedict is urging all Catholics to pray in Latin! - Just 2 months after his elevation to the papacy, Benedict XVI declared that all Catholics should learn and recite the most common Catholic prayers in Latin.

But why would the pope, Christ’s representative on earth, urge every Catholic person to pray regularly in Latin?

The site jumps to a dubious quote about the Devil.

STOP

Go Back.

Look at what the Holy Father said. The site is asking the important question "why would the pope, Christ’s representative on earth, urge every Catholic person to pray regularly in Latin? "

IMO, in this speech a few things seem to be promoted – in regards to learning our prayers in Latin. When a special occasion may occur with the faithful of many languages – we can find unity in praying together in Latin. It also can help us gain a sense of history of the Church. A history that is unbroken. Ongoing.

There’s little reason to go beyond this. It is where we are now.

 

[mangy_dog]

Proof texting; scripture reading; tradition; revelation…I use and will continue to use whatever means necessary to put an important point across.

If I’ve learned anything on this thread, it’s that one person may exasperate me but, persistence brings out the pros and cons- and the pros tend to outnumber the cons when it is a matter of truth.

What I have written, is written. Aquiesce anima mea, in Deus salus mea.

 

[TimothyH]

True, the intention and longing in the heart is at the core of prayer, since all prayer is aimed at uniting us closer to the heart of Jesus. The underlying point that so many popes and the saints are ultimately making when they ardently advocate praying in Latin is that the Latin language is able to propel one further into that state of prayer through the desired fidelity and unity with the Holy See, her traditions, her saints, and the rest of the faithful throughout the world. That does not in any way imply that everyone must learn Latin in order to advance in the spiritual life or a life of prayer. But it does mean that **for the faithful who do learn and do utilize this sacred language that it will be a great source of spiritual help, stability, and encouragement. **

Pray also involves work. Initially, most people begin engaging their personal prayer life by devoting and carving out time in their daily lives: most often morning and night and then times throughout the day. They have to work on it, just like any relationship. The additional effort they put in to learn prayers in Latin can be looked at much like a loving act of penitence, and the more and more we work at it with the desire to please God and unite ourselves with him through his holy Church, the greater and greater our reward will be.

Thank you for not insisting that I must learn Latin in order to advance. Thank you for not trying to force me, or millions of Eastern Catholics, into someone elses spiritual box.

I wish, at the risk of changing the topic, that people would take this tact with the Rosary. It requires perseverance, but many encourage abandoning it as soon as it becomes uncomfortable or seems the slight bit tedious, or doesn’t produce immediate results.

I’m still not going to learn Latin. First of all, I don’t care to. It does nothing for me and for me would be a complete waste of time spiritually.

-Tim-

 

[mangy_dog]

We shouldn’t idolize Latin. Latin is a language, which means it is man made. As St. Stephen charged the Jews of idolizing the man made temple in Jerusalem, let us not make the same mistake of idolizing a language.

You write this and then you talk about me… No wonder your religion is a

 

[clem456]

Thank you for not insisting that I must learn Latin in order to advance. Thank you for not trying to force me, or millions of Eastern Catholics, into someone elses spiritual box.

I wish, at the risk of changing the topic, that people would take this tact with the Rosary. It requires perseverance, but many encourage abandoning it as soon as it becomes uncomfortable or seems the slight bit tedious, or doesn’t produce immediate results.

I’m still not going to learn Latin. First of all, I don’t care to. It does nothing for me and for me would be a complete waste of time spiritually.

-Tim-

I 100% respect anyone else’s prayer life. It is none of my business if they pray in Latin or Mandarin. Perhaps the most moving adoration hour I’ve ever been present for was in Spanish, with guitars and singing in front of the Blessed Sacrament. I don’t know Spanish but the prayer was very powerful due to the intense joy and adoration being given.
Our choir sings Latin frequently, it is beautiful. I read the English translations at practice to appreciate the truth of the lyric. When we sing I am not conscioius of the individual wordss and their meaning however, but the truth is expressed nonetheless.

That being said I agree with you…I am not going to learn Latin, it would not be a wise use of my time and limited spiritual resources. I am heavily involved in ministry, I don’t think God would appreciate me taking a Latin course to the neglect of the RCIA ministry or hopsital emhc duty. I only have so may irons on the fire, and God has called me to what He has called me.

That being said, I 100% respect the Church’s appreciation of Latin as the primary Church language in the west. And if people want to learn prayer in Latin, go for it. But let’s not idolize it as superior to other God-given languages.

I am still hoping for someone knowlegable to explain the word “efficacious”, as in “Laitn is more efficacious for…”

 

[TimothyH]

**ef·fi·ca·cious/ˌefiˈkāSHəs/Adjective: **
Successful in producing a desired or intended result; effective.

-Tim-

 

[ProVobis]

I’m still not going to learn Latin. First of all, I don’t care to.

Good gosh. I wonder what the reaction would be if an American said the same thing about English.

 

[Rich_C]

Thank you for not insisting that I must learn Latin in order to advance. Thank you for not trying to force me, or millions of Eastern Catholics, into someone elses spiritual box.

I wish, at the risk of changing the topic, that people would take this tact with the Rosary. It requires perseverance, but many encourage abandoning it as soon as it becomes uncomfortable or seems the slight bit tedious, or doesn’t produce immediate results.

I’m still not going to learn Latin. First of all, I don’t care to. It does nothing for me and for me would be a complete waste of time spiritually.

-Tim-

I’ve heard a lot of people say: “I’m still not going to learn the rosary. First of all, I don’t care to. It does nothing for me and for me would be a complete waste of time spiritually.”

I think they’re missing out. I think the same thing about not even being able to say the Pater Noster in Latin. Hopefully we agree that humility is especially important when it comes to promoting private devotions like the rosary. Use of Latin in private prayers is in the category, I guess.