Praying in Latin

[OraLabora]

Remember though that through most of the history of the RC, most of her congregation either spoke Latin in some flavor, or a language that is not far removed from Latin. Today many Roman Catholics speak languages totall foreign to Latin, like Afrian, East Asian, South East Asian, and many other languages and dialects from other parts of the world. It is easier to learn a language that has a familiar structre, even familiar words. But when you have a totally different language, it is a huge difference.

This is an important point. For example I’ve met Korean Catholics. I can’t imagine a more foreign language to them than Latin. I’m sure even well-educated Korean clerics will have problems with pronunciation. For the average Catholic in the pew, it will be even more difficult.

As a French-speaking Canadian ecclesiastical Latin is no particular obstacle for me. I imagine it’s the same for other Western European languages.

I would however like to relate a story from our local abbey. A monk recently died at age 94. He was one of the original “lay brothers” who, after Vatican II, when religious orders returned to their original charisms, became a fully professed monk (in pre-Vatican II days a distinction was made between choir monks who assured the liturgy and Mass-most were priests or on their way to becoming so-and lay brothers who did the manual work of the abbey; this was in fact against the spirit of the Rule of St. Benedict and Vatican II exhorted the communities to abolish the distinction).

At the Abbey, Lauds and Vespers are celebrated almost entirely in Latin except for the reading and the intercessions; the Mass has large portions (the Propers and Ordinary) in Latin. I remember speaking to this monk, who entered the monastery young as an uneducated lay brother. He told me he didn’t understand a word of Latin, and was never able to learn it. He couldn’t psalmody in Latin, or participate in any of the chants. He would read along the French in his breviary or just close his eyes and pray silently.

I dearly loved this old monk (he was the usher at Sunday Mass), who had a kind and gentle disposition. He also had a very simple but unshakable faith in his “petit Jesus”. Aren’t we called to approach Him with a child-like faith?

I guess what I’m trying to say is that we shouldn’t try to intellectualize prayer to the point that we either exclude people, or make them feel somehow inferior due to their lack of ability to learn Latin.

I think this is a particularly important point as the Church grows beyond her traditional boundaries. This is something in which the Roman Church is different than the other 22 sui juris Churches in communion with her, which tend to be more focused on their traditional ethnic origins thus making a common liturgical language easier.

 

[ProVobis]

Remember though that through most of the history of the RC, most of her congregation either spoke Latin in some flavor, or a language that is not far removed from Latin. Today many Roman Catholics speak languages totall foreign to Latin, like Afrian, East Asian, South East Asian, and many other languages and dialects from other parts of the world. It is easier to learn a language that has a familiar structre, even familiar words. But when you have a totally different language, it is a huge difference.

I would agree with this to some extent. But how does this explain Poland’s adherence to the Latin Mass, at least in the period up till Vatican II? There’s very little connection between Polish and Latin, except for maybe the inflective nature of their respective tongues, which English lacks. (e.g. in English, dog is spelled and pronounced dog, regardless of use. English therefore becomes very vulnerable to word order errors.)

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

This is an important point. For example I’ve met Korean Catholics. I can’t imagine a more foreign language to them than Latin. I’m sure even well-educated Korean clerics will have problems with pronunciation. For the average Catholic in the pew, it will be even more difficult.

As a French-speaking Canadian ecclesiastical Latin is no particular obstacle for me. I imagine it’s the same for other Western European languages.

I would however like to relate a story from our local abbey. A monk recently died at age 94. He was one of the original “lay brothers” who, after Vatican II, when religious orders returned to their original charisms, became a fully professed monk (in pre-Vatican II days a distinction was made between choir monks who assured the liturgy and Mass-most were priests or on their way to becoming so-and lay brothers who did the manual work of the abbey; this was in fact against the spirit of the Rule of St. Benedict and Vatican II exhorted the communities to abolish the distinction).

At the Abbey, Lauds and Vespers are celebrated almost entirely in Latin except for the reading and the intercessions; the Mass has large portions (the Propers and Ordinary) in Latin. I remember speaking to this monk, who entered the monastery young as an uneducated lay brother. He told me he didn’t understand a word of Latin, and was never able to learn it. He couldn’t psalmody in Latin, or participate in any of the chants. He would read along the French in his breviary or just close his eyes and pray silently.

I dearly loved this old monk (he was the usher at Sunday Mass), who had a kind and gentle disposition. He also had a very simple but unshakable faith in his “petit Jesus”. Aren’t we called to approach Him with a child-like faith?

I guess what I’m trying to say is that we shouldn’t try to intellectualize prayer to the point that we either exclude people, or make them feel somehow inferior due to their lack of ability to learn Latin.

I think this is a particularly important point as the Church grows beyond her traditional boundaries. This is something in which the Roman Church is different than the other 22 sui juris Churches in communion with her, which tend to be more focused on their traditional ethnic origins thus making a common liturgical language easier.

Agree completely, fratello. And, for the traditionalists, I would imagine the first Mass was in Aramaic.

I will add, though, that Latin did have its advantages…travel anywhere in the world and at least theoretically understand the Mass.

Having said all that, I have never assisted at a Latin Mass.

 

[OraLabora]

I would agree with this to some extent. But how does this explain Poland’s adherence to the Latin Mass, at least in the period up till Vatican II? There’s very little connection between Polish and Latin, except for maybe the inflective nature of their respective tongues, which English lacks. (e.g. in English, dog is spelled and pronounced dog, regardless of use. English therefore becomes very vulnerable to word order errors.)

Easy enough, the Church has been present in Poland for some 1100 years. Plenty of time to assimilate a foreign language for ecclesiastical use and for that language to become part of the local religious culture. That’s not the case in many areas the Church has grown into. Korea for example. Although the Church has been present there since some 300+ years, only recently (this century) has it undergone explosive growth.

You also have to look at levels of education in places the Church has grown, for instance Africa.

 

[TimothyH]

Easy enough, the Church has been present in Poland for some 1100 years. Plenty of time to assimilate a foreign language for ecclesiastical use and for that language to become part of the local religious culture. That’s not the case in many areas the Church has grown into. Korea for example. Although the Church has been present there since some 300+ years, only recently (this century) has it undergone explosive growth.

You also have to look at levels of education in places the Church has grown, for instance Africa.

Your posts made me think of what might happen if the next pope or some pope in the near future were African or Korean or Chinese.

What do you think the impact would be to have a pope whose native language is further removed from the Latin based European languages?

I know it’s just speculation.

-Tim-

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Your posts made me think of what might happen if the next pope or some pope in the near future were African or Korean or Chinese.

What do you think the impact would be to have a pope whose native language is further removed from the Latin based European languages?

I know it’s just speculation.

-Tim-

This is an interesting speculation. JPII the Great brought down the Iron Curtain. Wouldn’t it be fantastic if a Chinese Pope brought down Chinese Communism?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think this is a particularly important point as the Church grows beyond her traditional boundaries. This is something in which the Roman Church is different than the other 22 sui juris Churches in communion with her, which tend to be more focused on their traditional ethnic origins thus making a common liturgical language easier.

Beautiful post, but I will have to correct you on this point. The method of evangelization of East and West diverged in some way. The East have maintained, as in the Apostolic times, that Churches are to be local. It has the local culture, local leadership, etc. You will see this in Acts between Antioch (which is mostly Gentile Greek) and Jerusalem (completely Jewish). The Roman Catholic way of evangelization is expanding the reach of the Roman Church. So everywhere the missionaries go, the establish the Roman Catholic Church. In the East when they enter a new area and establish a Church there, that Church becomes a part of that area. So when Sts. Cyril and Methodius evangelized the Slavs, they didn’t sought to establish a Roman or Greek Church, they established a Slavic Church.

It is not about concentrating on their own culture. When they evangelize they let the new Church take root in the culture of where it is planted.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Your posts made me think of what might happen if the next pope or some pope in the near future were African or Korean or Chinese.

What do you think the impact would be to have a pope whose native language is further removed from the Latin based European languages?

I would venture guess that such a Pope would have spent a fair amount of time in Rome, is fluent in Italian and has a working command of liturgical Latin, as well as the ability to write expressively in Latin.

Does anyone know if Pope Benedict drafts his papal writings first in his native language or Latin?

 

[una_fides]

Ther laity will be educated whether we (Church) want it or not. The question is, what will they absorb? From who? Communication is instantaneous (hate cliches but it’s true).We fill ourselves with communication. Vatican 2 was brilliant in addressing this issue. This is one reason why use of the vernacular is important, or should not be ignored, or pre-empted by usage of Latiin. It gives one more ready access to understanding the Mass, and facilitates teaching, and participating in both, which is half the battle in understanding them.

Vatican II actually said that the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rite and that the faithful should be able to chant in Latin the responses. It only permitted the vernacular in limited cases, which the the Council fathers largely thought would only be permitted in missionary activities when first introducing the Mass to a new culture. Thus, when Pope Benedict calls for a reform of the reform and a return to the actual documents of Vatican II so that it can actually be implemented, I think it’s safe to presume his intentions to return Latin to its prime place where Pope John XXIII demanded it remain. It was the “reformers” after the council who ran wild with the liturgy, but hopefully with time the Church will correct herself and at least return to the stated intentions within the Council itself.

 

[una_fides]

As for “reaching back to a time before the schism”, I will be brutaly honest here. The Latin Mass does not do that. The Tridentine Mass is a counter-reformation Liturgy. The schism was well in place then and in fact there has been bad blood between East and West around that time. I don’t think Rome even was thinking about Constantinople at that time. If we really want East-West unity, we need to reach far back into the mid-First Millennium.

Actually if you research where the Tridentine Mass came from, it was just a solidifying in a uniform way the Roman Rite, which was essentially the same liturgy of Pope St Gregory the Great (mid 500s), though we know that it was used and can actually be traced back much earlier. (Sources available upon request.)

In addition, I would like to point out that at the Council of Florence, the Greek Church agreed to accept the primacy of Peter and the *Filioque *clause in the Creed. They also all chanted the Creed together in Latin as a sign of their unity, despite the fact that the Greeks were not required to add the clause to their Creed. Latin does unify the East and the West for special occasions when praying together under the authority of St Peter.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t think Rome even was thinking about Constantinople at that time. If we really want East-West unity, we need to reach far back into the mid-First Millennium.

Maybe we don’t have to go that far back. Interestingly enough, according to wiki,

The teaching of Latin has a very long history in Greece. Latin is today compulsory for high school students who wish to study Law, social and political sciences and humanities, and is one of the six subjects tested in Greek examinations for entry into university-level courses in these fields. In high school, the subject is taught in a very detailed manner that has provoked criticisms.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_in_Latin

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Latin does unify the East and the West for special occasions when praying together under the authority of St Peter.

So does Greek …

http://www.ewtn.com/johnpaul2/_mourning/multimedia/Papal_Funeral_12_02.jpg

… or Church Slavonic.

http://rumkatkilise.org/popebyz.jpg

 

[una_fides]

I quote this because I can see this operating one of two ways. At some point, you can reach this state at a Latin Mass. However I would find it difficult to do while reading commentaries and Missals and listening in a language that isn’t your native tongue. Being immersed in it constantly (as some religious and/or secular priests would) could work.

Going at least once a week will do fine, and praying Latin in your private devotions is also a great help as well!

Compare with the native tongue, it might be easier to reach the state described above by attending a Mass where you understand the language.

I actually think Latin does a much better job of helping one be freed from self consciousness. When praying in this sacred language, one is able to be “lost in the Mass” in a sense. The other worldliness of the liturgy begins to sink in and take hold of the soul, resulting in helping a soul attain deep meditation and contemplation. I will grant you that in the beginning when someone is trying to figure out that Mass and follow along in the missal that there can be some initial distraction of sorts, but I think this comes no matter where you attend the liturgy for the first time. I am a convert and it took me about the same amount of time to figure out the NOM in English as it did to figure out the TLM.

My first experience at the TLM was amazing. I didn’t need to be able to follow along with every word and gesture. Just hearing the chant, seeing the reverence, smelling the incense and hearing the bells, elevated my soul to heaven and nearly brought tears to my eyes, after years of hoping for an answer to the liturgical chaos and protestantized liturgies I had been attending. I honestly felt a second conversion experience, and I still vividly remember kneeling at the altar rail for the first time to receive Holy Communion. I may have never felt more distant from self and more absorbed into the reality of God. My second time at a TLM, I didn’t use a missal and just absorbed as much as I could. From then on, I usually use my missal, but I think one of the many great things about that liturgy is that you aren’t forced to follow along with every word. Many of the priest’s prayers are silent or are said very quietly up at the altar, which gives that sense of sacredness and mystery and also facilitates quiet meditation on what is taking place. I find it much easier to get lost in meditation and contemplation at any point in the Mass. When I think about how in what ways the Latin language helps make all that possible, it makes so much sense to me how popes have said that it “elicits a profound sense of the Eucharistic mystery” and is “a treasure of incomparable worth.”

Although in favor of Latin; if you have to work to understand things, you might appreciate it more. So there is that.

Very true.

 

[una_fides]

So does Greek …

… or Church Slavonic.

lol. Despite your pictures, popes disagree with you my friend. No other language in that regard can boast the same unifying effect with Rome as Latin.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Actually if you research where the Tridentine Mass came from, it was just a solidifying in a uniform way the Roman Rite, which was essentially the same liturgy of Pope St Gregory the Great (mid 500s), though we know that it was used and can actually be traced back much earlier. (Sources available upon request.)

In addition, I would like to point out that at the Council of Florence, the Greek Church agreed to accept the primacy of Peter and the *Filioque *clause in the Creed. They also all chanted the Creed together in Latin as a sign of their unity, despite the fact that the Greeks were not required to add the clause to their Creed. Latin does unify the East and the West for special occasions when praying together under the authority of St Peter.

You do know that the Council of Florence was an utter failure, right? It didn’t unify anyone and the bishops who were in Rome were there only because they wanted to get Rome to send troops to help defend against the advancing Muslim armies and they accepted whatever Rome asked them to do not for theological reasons but for political reasons. When they got back to Constantinople, nobody there accepted anything out of the Council. So I don’t see what unifying effect you are talking about.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

lol. Despite your pictures, popes disagree with you my friend. No other language in that regard can boast the same unifying effect with Rome as Latin.

Latin is not imposed as the unifying language for the entire Catholic Church - just the Latin Catholic Church. Latin is not used in concelebrating according to any Eastern Rite.

 

[ConstantineTG]

lol. Despite your pictures, popes disagree with you my friend. No other language in that regard can boast the same unifying effect with Rome as Latin.

Right, that is why we have over 30,000 Reformation churches, schismatics like the Old Catholics and Sedevacantists. Because Latin is so unifying.

 

[LilyM]

Going at least once a week will do fine, and praying Latin in your private devotions is also a great help as well!

I actually think Latin does a much better job of helping one be freed from self consciousness. When praying in this sacred language, one is able to be “lost in the Mass” in a sense. The other worldliness of the liturgy begins to sink in and take hold of the soul, resulting in helping a soul attain deep meditation and contemplation. I will grant you that in the beginning when someone is trying to figure out that Mass and follow along in the missal that there can be some initial distraction of sorts, but I think this comes no matter where you attend the liturgy for the first time. I am a convert and it took me about the same amount of time to figure out the NOM in English as it did to figure out the TLM.

My first experience at the TLM was amazing. I didn’t need to be able to follow along with every word and gesture. Just hearing the chant, seeing the reverence, smelling the incense and hearing the bells, elevated my soul to heaven and nearly brought tears to my eyes, after years of hoping for an answer to the liturgical chaos and protestantized liturgies I had been attending. I honestly felt a second conversion experience, and I still vividly remember kneeling at the altar rail for the first time to receive Holy Communion. I may have never felt more distant from self and more absorbed into the reality of God. My second time at a TLM, I didn’t use a missal and just absorbed as much as I could. From then on, I usually use my missal, but I think one of the many great things about that liturgy is that you aren’t forced to follow along with every word. Many of the priest’s prayers are silent or are said very quietly up at the altar, which gives that sense of sacredness and mystery and also facilitates quiet meditation on what is taking place. I find it much easier to get lost in meditation and contemplation at any point in the Mass. When I think about how in what ways the Latin language helps make all that possible, it makes so much sense to me how popes have said that it “elicits a profound sense of the Eucharistic mystery” and is “a treasure of incomparable worth.”

Very true.

Interesting - Reverence? Incense? Bells? Periods of silence? Communion at the rail? None of these have anything to do with language, and all can be found in plenty in Masses in English, Spanish, Japanese or Hindi. I know, because I have attended such Masses in different languages.

And you seem to be saying that the more familiar one becomes with the Latin - ie the more fluent and therefore vernacular-like it becomes to you - the better your experience.

 

[ProVobis]

Right, that is why we have over 30,000 Reformation churches, schismatics like the Old Catholics and Sedevacantists. Because Latin is so unifying.

Faulty conclusion even in sarcasm. The modern vernacular seems to have divided the faith, more than Greek, Latin, or Old Church Slavonic. I don’t think the same thing happened in the East, but the first step of Reformation was to interpret/translate Church documents, liturgy, and scripture as they wished into their own vernaculars, and stating it as truth. And it seems like English especially has brought on massive divisions even to the point where people stopped going to Mass altogether. Maybe some linguist can tell me why exactly, but since Henry VIII, English has never been a language that unified or identified any religion in a meaningful way. OTOH, Spanish or Polish or Italian speakers are predominantly Catholic.

 

[Rich_C]

I guess what I’m trying to say is that we shouldn’t try to intellectualize prayer to the point that we either exclude people, or make them feel somehow inferior due to their lack of ability to learn Latin.

I can only say this anedotally, but its seems that when the revolution swept in in the late 60s, dismay at the loss of the old Latin Mass was felt at least as strongly among the Church’s working-class folks as among its scholars, if not more so. Like I said, I can’t prove this but that doesn’t make it subjective, it’s just that I get it from stories the old-timers and their children have written or told me. Even when the very educated and articulate Catholic, Evelyn Waugh wrote about his disapointment with the new liturgy (the 1965 Mass in this case) it was not an intellectual argument, but a cogent arrangment of deep feelings. And none of these folks mentioned feeling excluded.