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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Wow. Strawman and ad hominem all wrapped in one.
By the way, it did not address the point being raised in any way.
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By the way, it did not address the point being raised in any way.
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OraLabora
Guest
His/her point was not “doing the minimum”. It was what is necessary for a church (the building) to be authentically Catholic. The frills you seem to be attached to are neither necessary for a church to be Catholic, nor are they authentic in different orders or cultures. And sometimes poor locals just can’t afford them.
It is rather you who misses the point. In some churches, poverty is the point. Yet even though the building is minimalist in style, you’ll find at the abbey that I’m affiliated with, nothing is minimalist about the Liturgy.
What would be a travesty would be an order with a tradition of poverty having an ostentatious church. That’s the case with the church at Monte Cassino (its rebuilding was paid for by the Americans who bombed it thinking that the Germans were holed up there. They weren’t).
Benedictines (and I include Cistercians of both traditions in that and I’m sure this applies to Carthusians and mendicants as well) are very big on Jacob’s ladder;it features prominently in the Rule. Sometimes you elevate yourself by lowering yourself.
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OraLabora
Guest
No, no no! He is the telephone!!!Maybe because the devil is an Anglophone?
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Melchior_1
Guest
Very good post, my friend. The final paragraph sounds about right, from a mendicant perspective at least.
If any one here wants to gain perspective on what I was talking about in my last post, especially that sometimes minimum is maximum, this is a fantastic book on the topic of Gospel Poverty. Cannot recommend it enough.
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ProVobis
Guest
That may be but the trend since the 60’s has been to make the Catholic Churches not so distinct.
That said, it should be interesting to see what burning candles look like inside the Crystal Cathedral when it’s shared with the Protestants.
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RogerDeCourcy
Guest
Well, finally, someone gets it!
It’s one thing for people who’ve taken a vow of poverty to have a bare church. It’s another to use ‘poverty’ and ‘noble simplicity’ to excuse bare diocesan churches in well-off parishes.
I was joking about making monks have ornate churches. Except for when I become Pope.
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Melchior_1
Guest
I knew you were going to say this, I covered it in my post earlier.
Check out the book I recommended, you will understand where some of us are coming from with this.
Unless you’re scared of authentic Catholic Gospel Poverty, which all members of the Church (including lay people) are called to do.
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RogerDeCourcy
Guest
Put it another way: “In what ways would a Protestant know a church is Catholic?”
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RogerDeCourcy
Guest
I am, if ‘authentic Catholic Gospel Poverty’ = ‘We’re going to remove the High Altar’.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
What about these passages?
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 14:9[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 14:19[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 14:9[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 14:19[/BIBLEDRB]
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una_fides
Guest
Seems like the thread is spiraling on for pages and can’t keep up with busy schedule but would like to chime in on this one. Id have to say the experience of the OF liturgy in my area is quite depraved, but of course the vast majority of Catholics that attend probably don’t realize it at all. I visited almost every OF church in my area within about a 30 min radius for daily mass (probably 10-12) trying to find one, just one, that did not have any form of liturgical abuse. I literally found one. No abuse. It wasn’t done solemnly or in an extremely reverent manner per say. It was just done without abuse. The priest was fairly solid but generally quiet. He was moved away of course. The Sunday liturgy at that same church featured guitars and other modern “fun” and “lively” music. Really wish there were more daily tlms available to people. I can relate to the pain they likely have to experience in suffering through the abuses just to be able to receive Holy Communion.Is this the experience of other posters? I only know the UK and Ireland and a full-on Roman Catholic mass, with Latin and Chant, is quite rare. However, since Summorum Pontificum, appending the phrase ‘as hen’s teeth’ is no longer apt
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una_fides
Guest
Didn’t st Francis of Assisi, one of the poorest of the poor, who insisted to die naked on the floor for poverty’s sake and who gave away everything he had and even others had to the poor, say that he could not spare enough gold for the altar. We practice poverty towards ourselves but we give the best of the best we have for God and to adorn his house. Read the Old Testament and the very specific meticulous instructions God gave regarding the building of his holy temple. That tells you how God himself desires to be worshipped. God instructed this when people were still starving, there were still poor people. Rememember what Jesus said about the woman with the very expensive oil she poured on his feet to anoint Him. And remember who opposed? The objection from the one who betrayed Christ was that instead of that expensive item being used for a holy purpose it could have been sold for the poor. For this reason, Archbishop Fulton Sheen said that Judas was the patron saint of social justice.
Almighty God has given everything to us and in return He deserves nothing less than the absolute best we have within our ability to give to Him.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Based on some of these posts I wonder how many parishes actually have nothing wrong at all with them, but something doesn’t line up with how one person thinks and they automatically think “that’s wrong”.
Parish A: No alter rails.
Parish B: Priest’s homily was “only” ten minutes, and on a topic deemed "unimportant/.
Parish C: People received the Eucharist in their hands.
Parish D: They had females doing the readings.
Parish E: They had females alter serving.
Parish F: The music for the evening had one person playing classical guitar, but still, it was a guitar!
Parish G: The church building looked like it was built by mendicants or monastics.
Parish H: In general; no Latin!*
Due to any of those reasons, someone could say “oh man, I’m in a barren wasteland”, with none of the above reasons actually really being a cause of concern, and is more about personal taste.
Now, I’m not saying there isn’t parishes that have some crazy stuff happening. We have such a one in my city, actually. But sometimes I wonder if some situations are overblown. If I believed what everyone said on here, based on ratios and per capita, I should have well more than one “problem parish” in my city.
*Hey look, on topic!
Parish A: No alter rails.
Parish B: Priest’s homily was “only” ten minutes, and on a topic deemed "unimportant/.
Parish C: People received the Eucharist in their hands.
Parish D: They had females doing the readings.
Parish E: They had females alter serving.
Parish F: The music for the evening had one person playing classical guitar, but still, it was a guitar!
Parish G: The church building looked like it was built by mendicants or monastics.
Parish H: In general; no Latin!*
Due to any of those reasons, someone could say “oh man, I’m in a barren wasteland”, with none of the above reasons actually really being a cause of concern, and is more about personal taste.
Now, I’m not saying there isn’t parishes that have some crazy stuff happening. We have such a one in my city, actually. But sometimes I wonder if some situations are overblown. If I believed what everyone said on here, based on ratios and per capita, I should have well more than one “problem parish” in my city.
*Hey look, on topic!
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
By hearing and witnessing the Consecration
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
I hate it when parishes alter their altar rails
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
I hate it when parishes alter their rails
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una_fides
Guest
This post is insulting. There is a clear distinction between a more reverent and solemn worship of Almighty God and genuine liturgical abuse, meaning a deviation from the rubrics of the Church, which the Church calls “depraved.”
“The reprobated practice by which priests, deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy” (Red. Sacramentum, 59; cf also General Instruction on Roman Missal, n. 24).
This website outlines the top ten most common abuses: archive.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901fea1.asp
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Melchior_1
Guest
I’ve seen far worse posts than mine, actually. And you may want to tell a few of the posters here about that distinction you’re talking about, as I see people complaining about the stuff I mentioned all they deem the parish unbearable or some such.
All my observation is that based on the quantity of complaints that people have about the non-EF Masses in their area, you’d think that in my travels throughout southern Ontario and other cities I would have seen more of these “problem parishes”.
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ProVobis
Guest
Or their female servers.I hate it when parishes alter their rails
Imagine if they had kept the Introibo
I will go in to the alter of God.
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Baelor
Guest
This is something that we should emphatically avoid. By focusing on the role of the necessities, i.e. the Crucifix, tabernacle, candles, altar, etc., we can combat this most effectively. After all, we should trust in the wisdom of our forebears which led to the establishment of essential signs of Catholicity.
Through the Crucifix, tabernacle, and candles.
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